QOD: Should the United States leave Iraq?

[2ndAmendment]

Normandy and Baghdad are two totally different birds...

And there is your problem.

Freedom is not free. It is won by the spilling of blood. If you haven't figured that out from history, then you haven't been studying.

 

[2ndAmendment]

Comparing the invasion of Iraq to America's involvement in W.W.II is absurd.

See above.

 

[AndyMarquisLIVE]

And there is your problem.

Freedom is not free. It is won by the spilling of blood. If you haven't figured that out from history, then you haven't been studying.

Iraq has nothing to do with our freedom. Sorry

It has to do with the Iraqwi's freedom. And as for my freedom, Bush has done enough to ensure that won't be happening sooo...

 

[Ken King]

Iraq has nothing to do with our freedom. Sorry

It has to do with the Iraqwi's freedom. And as for my freedom, Bush has done enough to ensure that won't be happening sooo...

Financing and allowing training camps for terrorists has nothing to do with your freedom? Andy, I think that you've missed the get a clue bus with that thought. Iraq was a serious and continued threat to our safety and those of our personnel enforcing the no-fly zone.

Anyone remember what was at the Baghdad Airport when we took it? How about the shell of a large Boeing jet that could be used for planning an assault?

 

[Railroad]

And as for my freedom, Bush has done enough to ensure that won't be happening sooo...

You're not free because of something PRESIDENT Bush did? Do tell.

 

[Larry Gude]

How about March 1945...

The date is August 26, 1944. The US (with their allies) just completed one of the bloodiest and most important battles of WWII. The entire Normandy Campaign took 81 days; it took 29,000 American lives, 11,000 British, 12,200 French, and 5000 Canadian lives. Cameras were on the beach giving us real-time documentation of the carnage. Dead bodies everywhere, body parts and blood filled the beach and ocean. Men screaming from the pain, other men crying from the death and intense combat. All being reported back to Americans by CNN and FoxNews. Americans outraged at the death and destruction question the validity of what we are doing. Politicians start casting disparaging comments towards Roosevelt and his failed war policy. They are outraged that so many Americans are dying. They are calling for immediate withdrawal from Europe.

Can you imagine?

...the Sovs lost as many men in ONE month as we did in the whole war, including both theatres; 400,000 DEAD. In 30 days.

 

[bcp]

Iraq has nothing to do with our freedom. Sorry

It has to do with the Iraqwi's freedom. And as for my freedom, Bush has done enough to ensure that won't be happening sooo...

I just drove down to the store and made some purchases.
I didnt fill out any online forms requesting permission to travel first.
should I have?

lets see if I can break this down for you in an easy to understand type of way.

those that live in the middle east dont like us over here, their theory is,, or was to either make us submit to their idea of how life should be, or die. Very simple.
Now, a long time ago (right after 9/11) you might remember, or maybe you could get a grown up to tell you about it, President Bush made the comment that not only is he going to eradicate terrorists, but he will consider any country that gives terrorists a safe haven as our enemy, and he will strike.
Iraq under sodamn insane did give that safe haven, as could be indicated by the number of high level terrorists that have been removed from that country, and along with the safe haven for terrorists, he refused to allow weapons inspectors in to see what he was hiding.
Now granted, the WMDs that were spoke of were not found, as far as those of us without security clearance know, but it has been suggested that he had them, and moved them.
The Iraq war is justified by the simple fact that they were warned, and given ample chance to comply with the wishes of not only the U.S at that time, but the UN.

See, when you have someone that is planning to kill you, you have two options, you wait until they show up at the door with the proper weapons to do the job, or, you stop them in their own backyard.

Instead of complaining about all your lost rights, maybe you should look at this in the real light, and start being thankful that we have a President in this country that is willing to risk his reputation in order to make sure you can maintain that right to speak poorly of him.

that is all.

 

[PsyOps]

Normandy and Baghdad are two totally different birds...

You're right. So many more Americans died in one battle than the entire Iraq affair. My point is the death toll in Iraq pales in comparison to any one battle during WWII. But yet we don’t see this relatively small death toll as a mark for our ability to fight more efficient wars. But, I know it has nothing to do with that. The Iraq war was an illegal assault on a sovereign nation and based on a lie.

 

[PsyOps]

Comparing the invasion of Iraq to America's involvement in W.W.II is absurd.

Of course it absurd. now that we have liberated Europe and Asia, it's absurd that anyone else in the world is deserving the same liberties.

 

[PsyOps]

Iraq has nothing to do with our freedom. Sorry

It has to do with the Iraqwi's freedom. And as for my freedom, Bush has done enough to ensure that won't be happening sooo...

First of all, the US has spent the better part of an entire century providing and protecting the freedom of other nations. So you're right, the US is doing what it has done for more than half its existence; shedding American blood for others, for people we don’t even know or understand their culture, but respected their personal sovereignty enough to give the most sacred thing we have (American lives) so they can have the same liberties we have. We are losing that concept, and through that loss we will lose our own liberties.

Secondly, if you assert Bush is taking away your freedoms, you had better look at that computer, internet and this forum more closely.

 

[Bustem' Down]

Comparing the invasion of Iraq to America's involvement in W.W.II is absurd.

I actually agree with Kerad on that point, I don't think you can compare the two. There are not enough similarities.

 

[AndyMarquisLIVE]

First of all, the US has spent the better part of an entire century providing and protecting the freedom of other nations. So you're right, the US is doing what it has done for more than half its existence; shedding American blood for others, for people we don’t even know or understand their culture, but respected their personal sovereignty enough to give the most sacred thing we have (American lives) so they can have the same liberties we have. We are losing that concept, and through that loss we will lose our own liberties.

Secondly, if you assert Bush is taking away your freedoms, you had better look at that computer, internet and this forum more closely.

The military commissions act and the suspension of Habeas Corpus itself is unconstitutional.

Also, when you've got the GOP trying to pass laws to restrict and monitor internet activity and ordeing search companies to turn over their web searches and turn over users' personal emails.

When it comes to the internet, the GOP has a very dark plan to tax MP3 and force companies to only offer limited bandwidth and charge for any additional useage.

I know alot of it has to do with Bush's "War on pornography" but let's be real for a second (I don't like it either, but sorry):

The porn industry is a huge money maker and alot of the innovations we have are sadly because of porn (i.e. portable video players and camera phones). Think about that and be realistic

I'm just angered that this "Constitution" does not apply and the "Geneva Convention" does not apply to Bush.

A pre-constitution "Declaration" states the suspension of Habeas Corpus is cause for a war of independence.

But all this is to protect us. I recall Mr. Bush saying if we change our way of life for these terrorists, they've won, and we shouldn't do so.

Well, the terrorists have won and that's not the media's fault. It's not the Democrats' fault. It's King George's, oh I mean President Bush's, fault.

 

[Ken King]

The military commissions act and the suspension of Habeas Corpus itself is unconstitutional.

So the fact that the Military Commissions Act was brought forward as a bill in the Senate, passed by roll call vote and then sent to the House where it also passed via roll call vote before being signed by the President makes it unconstitutional?

I'm just angered that this "Constitution" does not apply and the "Geneva Convention" does not apply to Bush.

This act establishes provisions for those falling outside the scope of the Geneva Convention, AKA unlawful combatants, for which there are no clear provisions for in the convention.

 

[AndyMarquisLIVE]

So the fact that the Military Commissions Act was brought forward as a bill in the Senate, passed by roll call vote and then sent to the House where it also passed via roll call vote before being signed by the President makes it unconstitutional?


This act establishes provisions for those falling outside the scope of the Geneva Convention, AKA unlawful combatants, for which there are no clear provisions for in the convention.

It also gives the President a blank check to name whoever is the enemy. He's clearly stated he wants to jail reporters and that kind of thing. He's clearly stated that those who disapprove of the war are on the side of the enemy. It might come off as such today but it wouldn't be funny when one is arrested for treason, sent to a foriegn country, turtured and not given a right to a lawyer and told they're charged with treason because they're against the Iraq War.

 

[BS Gal]

It also gives the President a blank check to name whoever is the enemy. He's clearly stated he wants to jail reporters and that kind of thing. He's clearly stated that those who disapprove of the war are on the side of the enemy. It might come off as such today but it wouldn't be funny when one is arrested for treason, sent to a foriegn country, turtured and not given a right to a lawyer and told they're charged with treason because they're against the Iraq War.

You're starting to get on my nerves.

 

[PsyOps]

The military commissions act and the suspension of Habeas Corpus itself is unconstitutional.

Also, when you've got the GOP trying to pass laws to restrict and monitor internet activity and ordeing search companies to turn over their web searches and turn over users' personal emails.

When it comes to the internet, the GOP has a very dark plan to tax MP3 and force companies to only offer limited bandwidth and charge for any additional useage.

I know alot of it has to do with Bush's "War on pornography" but let's be real for a second (I don't like it either, but sorry):

The porn industry is a huge money maker and alot of the innovations we have are sadly because of porn (i.e. portable video players and camera phones). Think about that and be realistic

I'm just angered that this "Constitution" does not apply and the "Geneva Convention" does not apply to Bush.

A pre-constitution "Declaration" states the suspension of Habeas Corpus is cause for a war of independence.

But all this is to protect us. I recall Mr. Bush saying if we change our way of life for these terrorists, they've won, and we shouldn't do so.

Well, the terrorists have won and that's not the media's fault. It's not the Democrats' fault. It's King George's, oh I mean President Bush's, fault.

Yeah, I guess the concept of being at war is not something that Americans don't understand anymore. During WWII the internment of the Japanese in America was not a popular thing and probably stomped on the Constitution, but it helped win the war. And our Constitution remained in tact. Not knowing what Japanese sympathizers there were in the US, this was a necessary evil.

I know today’s Americans, in their ever-spoiled manner will never understand the concept of sacrifice and what it takes to fight and win a war. And it’s not surprising the anti-war crowd screams about Constitutional violations to support their disagreement.

Habeas Corpus is a domestic rule. It does not apply to prisoners of war. The Constitution gives the President the authority to enact such laws as The Military Commissions Act. An authority folks on the left would prefer Bush not have. The Supreme Court will decide the Constitutionality of it.

Then you raise the issue about how the porn industry has created innovation for the internet as if it is worth the sacrifice to put up with porn, abuse of our women and children, and create a medium for stalkers and child predators for the sake of innovation, but it’s not worth sacrificing some of your potential privacy for the sake of national security. I find this hugely disingenuous and hypocritical. Think about THAT and BE REALISTIC!

Your contention that the terrorists have won gets to the root of what I’m talking about. You have already given victory over to them, thrown in the white flag and retreated. This speaks loudly how influential the media and the left-wing propaganda machine has been on your thinking. That is the sad commentary on this whole discussion. I fear the left, that wants control of our government, has the same attitude and will retreat only to find out the terrorists will keep coming at us, without mercy. Then where will our Constitution be?

 

[PsyOps]

It also gives the President a blank check to name whoever is the enemy. He's clearly stated he wants to jail reporters and that kind of thing. He's clearly stated that those who disapprove of the war are on the side of the enemy. It might come off as such today but it wouldn't be funny when one is arrested for treason, sent to a foriegn country, turtured and not given a right to a lawyer and told they're charged with treason because they're against the Iraq War.

You seem to forget the President does have some authority granted him by the Constitution. I know this is a hard thing for you folks on the left to swallow but it's true. Look it up.

There are reporters out there leaking classified information. They got that info somewhere. Those reporters need to be held accountable for these traitorous sources. Those that are leaking this classified information puts you and me and the entire country at risk, and it DOES side with the enemy. There is still a concept that we have to maintain in this country know as National Security. I know this is another thing that you’d prefer we have no right to enforce but we do. Sorry.

 

[AndyMarquisLIVE]

You seem to forget the President does have some authority granted him by the Constitution. I know this is a hard thing for you folks on the left to swallow but it's true. Look it up.

There are reporters out there leaking classified information. They got that info somewhere. Those reporters need to be held accountable for these traitorous sources. Those that are leaking this classified information puts you and me and the entire country at risk, and it DOES side with the enemy. There is still a concept that we have to maintain in this country know as National Security. I know this is another thing that you’d prefer we have no right to enforce but we do. Sorry.

Classified information?! We knew it was going on... Reporting that the NSA is listening to phone calls and acquiring transcripts of who we called doesn't exactly make me feel safer. Makes me feel as though I'm living under Saddam Hussein. Does the government not trust in those who elected them. Do they assume everybody is the enemy? What's next, torturing citizens until they interrogate their new muslim neighbors?

 

[bcp]

Classified information?! We knew it was going on... Reporting that the NSA is listening to phone calls and acquiring transcripts of who we called doesn't exactly make me feel safer. Makes me feel as though I'm living under Saddam Hussein. Does the government not trust in those who elected them. Do they assume everybody is the enemy? What's next, torturing citizens until they interrogate their new muslim neighbors?

I do understand the problem here, people are putting their thoughts down to quickly for you to understand them.
Once again, becuase I am a caring and thoughtful individual I will try to explain how this whole listening to phone call things work in such a way that the special education class can understand it.

If you call your mom in another state, they dont care about you, they wont even listen. (technology has long been able to detect where calls go)

If you call your boss, Rashaammm Mohammad in the middle east, that might just trigger the equipment to trace and record that call.
Now if it is discovered that you are speaking of some plot to cause damage or harm in the U.S or other places, you might just find your phone being tracked on all calls. This way, they U.S can try to figure out who and where the terrorists are in this country, and what they think they can get away with.
yes, that means that if your call to the middle east determines that you might be a terrorist, you will be tracked to the point that they will even listen in on your call to the curry pizza house when you place the order for curry pizza with camel toppings.

 

[AndyMarquisLIVE]

Ok Sparky you let us know which Administration implemented Carnivore. while your at it please also let us know which side of the Aisle was for Carnivore and what their comments were in regard to implementing Carnivore. One other thing can you also let us know what 60 minutes, the Washington Post and the New York times all had to say about implementing Carnivore? thanks



We will assume you are talking about File Sharing MP3's, since pay as you Go MP3's are not affected. Like it or not, you are downloading MP3's without paying for it. you can justify it however you like (and i do it also) but you are doing something illegal. you know it, you attempt to cover yourself with "blah blah i'm trying the album out before buying it", but you are still doing somethign illegal.



nevermind you are an idiot



No koolaid drinker the Geneva Convention does not apply to TERRORISTS. they dont follow the Conventions, the Geneva Convention EXPLICETLY states what is and isnt covered, Being a Terrorist makes you inelligable for coverage.

I do pay as I go, iTunes or Windows Live. And they are trying to cover pay-as-you-go MP3s.

And the Administration's been trying to claim al-Qaida was involved with Iraq. Doesn't that make them soldiers of a government?

In all seriousness, I don't support stooping to the terrorists levels. It just makes us look worse in the muslim world. And we can't afford to piss off every muslim country.