Question about HS GPA

[NorthBeachPerso]

I knew a man who had a Phd and was on the President's Council for Mental Retardation (probably not called that anymore)
He was adamant that kids with special needs should not be mixed. Physical disabilities should be kept apart for mental disorders, etc.
What the "inclusion" class does is to lower the common denominator. Not until they get into high school are they seperated.
We had 4 groups - Nerds, Greasers, Farmers and SPED(x3)

The new grouping doesn't necessarily mean the low kids are SPED, just that they fall on the low end of "normal" IQ. Many Sped kids have been mainstreamed over the last 40+ years (IDEA adopted in 1977 or so mandated that) but many/most still are in their own classes.

I would typically have a couple high functioning ones in my regular Psych classes because I did a lot of activities which they could do and be successful. I also had to adjust their tests but that wasn't a big deal.

The advantage for a long time was that was a class that the kids had to want to take so all of them were motivated and would help the other kid(s), one time mixing worked.

Towards the end, in addition to me not teaching that class much (I've always believed I was being punished plus other internal staffing issues) the class really degraded. The reason was that we started to have so many 5th and 6th year Seniors (and there were reasons they were 5th and 6th year Seniors and those reasons weren't because they were stellar students or individuals) parachuted into the classes just to fill up their schedules.

 

[BernieP]

Not to mention confusing "low IQ" with learning disabilities, like dyslexia and dysgraphia.
Typically those with those disabilities (typically lumped into dyslexia) are above average IQ.
Medical research has learned a lot about the ? - can't call it a disease or disorder because they aren't sick or at risk of death - they just have way to many neural synapses . Their brain is over wired and has to be taught how to process the input from the eyes.
But that requires time and special work, which when we mainstream is not available because you have the low and high end all mixed as well as special needs.

 

[OccamsRazor]

Colleges don't really like to grant AP credit as a holistic thing, they get their money anyway since full time students pay the same whether they take 12 credits or 18. What really happens is that colleges won't typically grant AP credit or an exemption in a student's major (since there are so many STEM whores here I'll use the example of no credit/exemption for an AP Calc score fir an Engineering student).

Yes, the AP exams are difficult. Part of that is the immense amount of material that has to be covered, basically a chapter a week in the Social Studies classes and part of it is that the AP exams cover what in college would be two or three courses (World History is an example of that, as is US History and Psychology. Government, not so much. Biology is the same).

I suppose however, in the case of 2-year universities or Community Colleges, a student who gets credit from AP college exams would be taking the money away from those institutions.... wouldn't they?
Example: John Smith intends to do 2 years at CSM to save money and complete his base courses before transferring to UMD. He needs 40 credit hours from CSM to bang out his required lower-level classes. If he were to get 20 of those credits through AP placement exams, that would be THOUSANDS in revenue that CSM would lose... correct?
Seems to me that as long as those who generate, implement, and decide the AP exam structure have a financial interest in students NOT passing then the tests will ALWAYS be harder than they should.

 

[NorthBeachPerso]

I suppose however, in the case of 2-year universities or Community Colleges, a student who gets credit from AP college exams would be taking the money away from those institutions.... wouldn't they?
Example: John Smith intends to do 2 years at CSM to save money and complete his base courses before transferring to UMD. He needs 40 credit hours from CSM to bang out his required lower-level classes. If he were to get 20 of those credits through AP placement exams, that would be THOUSANDS in revenue that CSM would lose... correct?
Seems to me that as long as those who generate, implement, and decide the AP exam structure have a financial interest in students NOT passing then the tests will ALWAYS be harder than they should.

A lot of kids who get multiple AP credits aren't going to Community College anyway.

Does CSM lose money? Not really because that kid that does et AP credit still has to take classes and many scholarships require a minimum number of credits to stay eligible. So even if that kid gets credit for an AP score (and an exemption is more common, which just means the kid can skip the Intro course and take the next one in the series) he still has to take classes to remain full time.

Where Community Colleges really make some money is in the Remedial/Student Development classes where kids take classes, typically Math and English, to get them up to college level. Two or three years of classes and they still don't have college credit 1 because those classes don't count.

 

[OccamsRazor]

A lot of kids who get multiple AP credits aren't going to Community College anyway.

Does CSM lose money? Not really because that kid that does et AP credit still has to take classes and many scholarships require a minimum number of credits to stay eligible. So even if that kid gets credit for an AP score (and an exemption is more common, which just means the kid can skip the Intro course and take the next one in the series) he still has to take classes to remain full time.

Where Community Colleges really make some money is in the Remedial/Student Development classes where kids take classes, typically Math and English, to get them up to college level. Two or three years of classes and they still don't have college credit 1 because those classes don't count.

If Kid A goes from a normal track and starts at CSM, most likely they will have to start at ENG-1010 and pay for the course before they move on to the next higher required class.
If Kid B takes the AP college exam and scores high enough to get the credit, then they get to just jump right to the next higher level class.
How is it that Kid B is NOT saving money over Kid A?
What am I missing here?

 

[NorthBeachPerso]

If Kid A goes from a normal track and starts at CSM, most likely they will have to start at ENG-1010 and pay for the course before they move on to the next higher required class.
If Kid B takes the AP college exam and scores high enough to get the credit, then they get to just jump right to the next higher level class.
How is it that Kid B is NOT saving money over Kid A?
What am I missing here?

You're missing the "full time student" designation. Most colleges mark that as taking a minimum of 12 credits (typically four classes) up to, usually, 18. A full time student pays a set dollar amount for all the classes, not a per credit charge. If a kid takes more than 18 credits/semester he'll pay the full time tuition for up to 18 then go per credit above that.

The AP credit for a course doesn't count for determining full time status. The whole "get AP credit and you'll save money" is just bulls h I t that Principals, teachers and Jay Matthews say to get kids to take AP. It very rarely happens. The kid has to have about five AP credits given for the exactly right classes. Those would be English, Math, Biology, and a couple History classes and none can be in the kid's major.

The only time you pay per credit is if you're taking, say, two classes. Six credits at $250/credit (made up numbers for illustration).

 

[SamSpade]

As a teaching assistant in college I ran into a few home schooled products, they knew their math, but were otherwise adult children. One carried a Power Rangers backpack and rode a razor scooter to class. I work with a young lady that was home schooled and I think very highly of her. So I'd say that's a crap shoot also.

I remember a comment from a teacher friend in the 90's that home-schooled kids fell into two categories - gifted, intelligent children who were massively bored with school - and scary looking kids who (in her words) "looked like they came from 'The Hills Have Eyes' ". Has a lot to do with WHY the kids weren't in public schools.

 

[SamSpade]

I knew a man who had a Phd and was on the President's Council for Mental Retardation (probably not called that anymore)
He was adamant that kids with special needs should not be mixed.

100% agree, as a parent of a mentally disabled son who has gone through BOTH paths. The inclusion path meant he was in a normal classroom but received one on one teaching and an easier test and homework - but the fact was, he spent most of the time in the classroom so unable to grasp anything that even the little bit he was tested on was too much for him. Even though his classes were twice as long - he spent half of it fidgeting and pretending he understood.

In a curricula designed for him with peers, he's at the top of his class. He makes friends, has a girlfriend (HAD, actually - he broke up with her when she cursed at the teacher) and is excelling. He will take longer, but it's working. His reading level has jumped two grades. It was the best thing for him.

 

[OccamsRazor]

You're missing the "full time student" designation. Most colleges mark that as taking a minimum of 12 credits (typically four classes) up to, usually, 18. A full time student pays a set dollar amount for all the classes, not a per credit charge. If a kid takes more than 18 credits/semester he'll pay the full time tuition for up to 18 then go per credit above that.

The AP credit for a course doesn't count for determining full time status. The whole "get AP credit and you'll save money" is just bulls h I t that Principals, teachers and Jay Matthews say to get kids to take AP. It very rarely happens. The kid has to have about five AP credits given for the exactly right classes. Those would be English, Math, Biology, and a couple History classes and none can be in the kid's major.

The only time you pay per credit is if you're taking, say, two classes. Six credits at $250/credit (made up numbers for illustration).

So if a kid goes in as a full time student WITH say... 20 hours of college credit from exams, are you saying that even though they would finish their degree early (due to the credits/less classes) that they would be stuck paying the full-time student fees? (assuming this would be their last year)

 

[SamSpade]

Give a publicly educated 12th grade student today, an 8th grade test from the 1920's, or earlier, and I would bet, that at a minimum, 95% would fail that test.

I remember, years ago, seeing a HIGH SCHOOL entry exam from the 1890's - which included some geography, some ancient history, some literature and some Latin or Greek. I thought, dear God, I was a smart kid - and this would have been HARD. (Although admittedly, the geography questions were very different).

It overlooked ONE BIG THING. Back then, about 10% of the population had a high school education. Most people didn't go to 8 or 12 years of school. IF you went to high school - or college - you were wealthy and your high school was probably a boarding or prep school.

Current curricula may be "dumbed down" - but it is also more education than the OVERWHELMING portion of the population ever received.

And there's also the fact that THAT 8th grader would probably NEVER pass a math, science or technology test that many of our kids CAN.

 

[NorthBeachPerso]

So if a kid goes in as a full time student WITH say... 20 hours of college credit from exams, are you saying that even though they would finish their degree early (due to the credits/less classes) that they would be stuck paying the full-time student fees? (assuming this would be their last year)

For that last year, yes. Why wouldn't he?

 

[OccamsRazor]

For that last year, yes. Why wouldn't he?

Because if I have satisfied my requirement to graduate after the first semester of my last "full-time year" and need no further classes, why would I be expected to pay a "full-time student tuition? I wouldn't be taking any classes after I completed the requirements.

 

[jrt_ms1995]

If Kid A goes from a normal track and starts at CSM, most likely they will have to start at ENG-1010 and pay for the course before they move on to the next higher required class.
If Kid B takes the AP college exam and scores high enough to get the credit, then they get to just jump right to the next higher level class.
How is it that Kid B is NOT saving money over Kid A?

What about (hypothetical) kid C, who's an adult, and as a freshman at a 4-year took and passed a second semester English Honors class with the requisite grade, thereby also earning credit for the first semester English class (without having to take it), completed his/her 4-year degree, then an advanced degree, and who, in pursuit of various associates degrees from CSM just for kicks, is advised by CSM that he/she just absolutely must take its Freshman entry-level English course (or test out) since it appears nowhere on 6-1/2 years of college transcripts?

 

[jrt_ms1995]

Hypothetical kid C also found him/herself grouped in with the "General" students back at the beginning of 7th grade, and more-or-less he/she and family didn't know any better. Apparently enough of the teachers gave a collective "WTH" about the assignment and a move was made onto the college track. The rest is 50 years of history. Hypothetically.

 

[NorthBeachPerso]

Oh FFS stop making up ludicrous scenarios.

Because if I have satisfied my requirement to graduate after the first semester of my last "full-time year" and need no further classes, why would I be expected to pay a "full-time student tuition? I wouldn't be taking any classes after I completed the requirements.

Because your twenty credits AP credit doesn't satisfy any "graduation requirements" as far as number, that's a semester's worth of classes. Which, if he got those twenty credits, are going to be Gen Ed classes that pretty much everyone has to take-a Composition/Lit course, a Math, a Social Studies, a Science and one other.

College courses typically are three credits (120 or so needed to get a BS/BA). High school classes are 1 credit, in Maryland around 22 are needed and most of them are very specific.

 

[OccamsRazor]

Oh FFS stop making up ludicrous scenarios.

Because your twenty credits AP credit doesn't satisfy any "graduation requirements" as far as number, that's a semester's worth of classes. Which, if he got those twenty credits, are going to be Gen Ed classes that pretty much everyone has to take-a Composition/Lit course, a Math, a Social Studies, a Science and one other.

College courses typically are three credits (120 or so needed to get a BS/BA). High school classes are 1 credit, in Maryland around 22 are needed and most of them are very specific.

Then what exactly are the AP college credit exams (which students are charged about $120/each to take) good for? The students are told that they are for full college course credit if a high enough score is achieved. My neighbor's kid has taken about 5 of them so far. She hasn't gotten a high enough score to get the credit (yet) but that is what the school and test administrators are telling her.

 

[NorthBeachPerso]

Then what exactly are the AP college credit exams (which students are charged about $120/each to take) good for? The students are told that they are for full college course credit if a high enough score is achieved. My neighbor's kid has taken about 5 of them so far. She hasn't gotten a high enough score to get the credit (yet) but that is what the school and test administrators are telling her.

I already explained it about two times.

Once more and I'm done. A kid gets credit/exemption for an AP score, say English Lang and Comp 12th Grade. If for credit they start college with one class out of the way and have 3 credits in Freshman English towards their diploma. That frees up time in their schedule to either take another, more desirable class, or to have a four class (12 credits) semester instead of 5 classes.

An exemption doesn't get them credits just an exemption from, say, Freshman English, they still have to make up the credits in a different, hopefully more desirable, class.

You've fallen into the 'saves you money" trap. As I said earlier, in very specific instances, with a kid who has exactly the right AP credit for exactly the right Intro classes, they might be able to graduate a semester early.

If they're paying $120/test they're being overcharged.

 

[LightRoasted]

For your consideration ...

And there's also the fact that THAT 8th grader would probably NEVER pass a math, science or technology test that many of our kids CAN.

I disagree about the math. However. If students were taught science or technology back then. You can bet that those students would have passed those classes.

For most students back in the day, only up to an 8th grade education was all that was necessary. But then, that is all what most needed to be productive, truly educated, members of society. Of course, also, back then, we were much more of an agricultural and industrial society. Only those that wanted to become physicians, or engineers, or scientists, etc., went on to further education. Then of course, having a degree back then, really did mean something. Unlike today where degrees are issued in such large numbers they've lost their value and are more like toilet paper.

 

[PeoplesElbow]

Then what exactly are the AP college credit exams (which students are charged about $120/each to take) good for? The students are told that they are for full college course credit if a high enough score is achieved. My neighbor's kid has taken about 5 of them so far. She hasn't gotten a high enough score to get the credit (yet) but that is what the school and test administrators are telling her.

It keeps you from having to take that class in college, my BS required 134 hrs, I took a couple classes in summer sessions to free up my schedule to take a class that was only offered in the spring, to take something that wasn't required that I wanted to, and even to take an easy class instead.

Having credit for an English class already would allow more flexibility.

Or even to avoid a hard semester where you would otherwise have 18 hrs, that is a big load, typical is 15-16.

I ended up graduating with about 150 hrs because I changed majors.

 

[PeoplesElbow]

To expand a little on my last post I have worked with a few engineers that had to wait an entire semester to graduate because a class they needed was only offered once a year and they couldn't take the previous year because another required class interfered with it. So having some added flexibility can make sure you graduate on time also.