Rapture Discussion

[foodcritic]

The statement at the end was from the commentator Adam Clarke, not me. He was referring to the Jewish historian Josephus.

Have you ever read Josephus? He is quite lengthy, but here is a site with some relative excerpts (granted, it is trying to prove a point, but it's presentation of Josephus is accurate nonetheless).

Josephus: The Wars Of The Jews; History of the Destruction Of Jerusalem

I will check the link, but its hard to see it as objective since it's titled
Written in 75 AD
Proof that Matthew 24 was fully fulfilled in 70 AD

 

[2ndAmendment]

Even that does not make sense to me. Rev 20? That means most of Rev has taken place already. This is where I start losing the thought line.

Try reading Revelation as several parallel accounts rather than a series.

 

[2ndAmendment]

I am not going into details. Each must read, learn, and pray for wisdom. I rely on the Bible and not what others write; they are men and fallible.

I believe in post tribulation second coming of Jesus. I believe that is what is taught by Jesus in Matthew and in Mark. I believe that is consistent with Daniel and Revelation.

I think that pre-tribulation (the doctrine of the church I attend is pretrib) is wishful thinking and has the potential to be dangerous from a logical point of view.

Reasoning:

• A pre-trib believer expects to escape the tribulation and not be subject to evils and wrath poured out during that time.
• If the tribulation comes while a pre-trib believer is still alive, there may be a tendency to fall away (a reason for the great apostasy that is prophesied).

In other words a pre-trib believer is expecting the best and if the worst comes along, may lose faith.

• A post-trib believer expects to be persecuted.
• If the tribulation comes while a post-trib believer is still alive, nothing is happening that was not expected.

In other words a post-trib believer expects the worst and if the worst comes along, it was expected anyway.

The upside of post-trib belief is that if the pre-trib believers are right, no harm, no foul, we are out of here. Salvation does not depend on whether you are pre-trib or post-trib; it depends on salvation through the grace of God.

 

[Zguy28]

I will check the link, but its hard to see it as objective since it's titled
Written in 75 AD
Proof that Matthew 24 was fully fulfilled in 70 AD

The content however, Josephus the 1st Century historian, is not.

 

[foodcritic]

I am not going into details. Each must read, learn, and pray for wisdom. I rely on the Bible and not what others write; they are men and fallible.

I believe in post tribulation second coming of Jesus. I believe that is what is taught by Jesus in Matthew and in Mark. I believe that is consistent with Daniel and Revelation.

I think that pre-tribulation (the doctrine of the church I attend is pretrib) is wishful thinking and has the potential to be dangerous from a logical point of view.

Reasoning:

• A pre-trib believer expects to escape the tribulation and not be subject to evils and wrath poured out during that time.
• If the tribulation comes while a pre-trib believer is still alive, there may be a tendency to fall away (a reason for the great apostasy that is prophesied).

In other words a pre-trib believer is expecting the best and if the worst comes along, may lose faith.

• A post-trib believer expects to be persecuted.
• If the tribulation comes while a post-trib believer is still alive, nothing is happening that was not expected.

In other words a post-trib believer expects the worst and if the worst comes along, it was expected anyway.

The upside of post-trib belief is that if the pre-trib believers are right, no harm, no foul, we are out of here. Salvation does not depend on whether you are pre-trib or post-trib; it depends on salvation through the grace of God.

This is true and it leaves open the possibility that others will be saved after the rapture(Left Behind Series). Which could have serious repercussions. It undermines the necessity of spreading the Gospel. Leaves lost souls with the idea that they will have a second chance.

 

[foodcritic]

The content however, Josephus the 1st Century historian, is not.

I will assume all the words attributed to him are. Let me use one example from ur site.

This is the claim from the website:

Fulfillment of Revelation 6:16?

They cite this as the recorded event:

Book VI, Chapter VII, Section 3 (Entire)
What Afterward Befell the Seditious When They Had done a Great Deal of Mischief

3. So now the last hope which supported the tyrants, and that crew of robbers who were with them, was in the caves and caverns under ground; whither, if they could once fly, they did not expect to be searched for; but endeavored, that after the whole city should be destroyed, and the Romans gone away, they might come out again, and escape from them. This was no better than a dream of theirs; for they were not able to lie hid either from God or from the Romans . However, they depended on these under-ground subterfuges, and set more places on fire than did the Romans themselves; and those that fled out of their houses thus set on fire into the ditches, they killed without mercy, and pillaged them also; and if they discovered food belonging to any one, they seized upon it and swallowed it down, together with their blood also; nay, they were now come to fight one with another about their plunder; and I cannot but think that, had not their destruction prevented it, their barbarity would have made them taste of even the dead bodies themselves.

The site offers not context to the statement above if there is one I do not know. But if we put Rev in context with a few more verses for example:

Rev 6: 12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14 The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.

15 Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us[f] from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of their[g] wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”

These events take place in what appears to be about the same time. The paragraph the website provides takes one verse and leaves behind what build up to it. I would think the cataclysmic events written just prior would be worth noting.

So I would conclude that the historical recording, most likely accurate, has nothing to do with Rev. There is no way to tie these to things together unless you want to come to a foregone conclusion.

 

[Starman3000m]

•If the tribulation comes while a pre-trib believer is still alive, there may be a tendency to fall away (a reason for the great apostasy that is prophesied).

Mmm... not necessarily. (But this is my opinion) If anyone falls away into apostasy, I'd see it more that he/she was never really completely sold out and committed in their life to Christ to begin with! When a person is truly born-again, there is no doubt at all about their relationship with Jesus and that they are a child of God.

This would be the reasoning for those who fall away:
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. (1 John 2:19)

During the Great Tribulation there are only two ways to go. Claim faith in Christ or accept the antichrist rule. Apostasy is a moot point. The ones you refer to as being "apostates" are the people who will accept the Mark of the Beast.

Regarding Apostasy: That is happening right now with many Christian churches that are falling away from straight-forward scriptural teaching of the New Testament Jesus and Salvation through His atoning blood alone. This is part of the deception of pseudo-Christian denominations and all other false religions that preach different methods of ataining "paradise" and eternal bliss.

For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; (2 Timothy 4:3)

Presently, many also deny the power and intervention of God's Holy Spirit that reproves this world of sin (John 16:8) Instead, churches are introducing teachings and doctrines that counter New Testament guidelines in an effort to water down the Truth about sin, hell-fire and eternal damnation. The eucumenical council of churches is a good example of trying to make theological concessions.
These are lukewarm teachings developed so that they don't hurt people's feeling and at the same time gain more lukewarm members.
(Rev. 3:13-22)

Thus:

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. (Matthew 7:21-23)

There are many well meaning church-going people who are taking their denomination's word that their membership makes them a secure "Christian" believer. Here are Jesus' words to those religious leaders who are leading people astray:

(Matthew 23:
13: But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
14: Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
15: Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

This is speaking to the churches from the 1st-century up to the time when the Great Tribulation occurs. When the Great Tribulation is in effect, one is either for God or against God - no more fence-sitting.

I do not view the "Rapture" as being the Second Coming of Christ and agree that that will occur post-tribulation when He sets up the Millennial Kingdom.

 

[Zguy28]

FC, I'm tired of defending something that is not my own view, so I'm going to move on to my own.

A brief summary of what I believe:

vv. 4-14 - Jesus describes events that will happen before He returns, but we should not look to them to mean the End is going to happen soon.

vv. 15-20 - The horrible destruction of the temple and Jerusalem.

vv.21-28 - a period of "great tribulation" in between the destruction of the temple in 70 AD and the End of the Age. Essentially the entire church age.

vv.29-31Christ's return (parousia)

vv.32-35Everything necessary for Christ's return will occur within the original disciple's lifetime aka "this generation."

This does not mean it will happen then, and obviously didn't. However, Jesus is teaching that it is possible for Him to return at any moment after the destruction of the temple because will all be fulfilled.

Will many of these "signs" be repeated prior to the End? Undoubtedly yes. Have they happened already. Yes.

vv.36-46 Jesus can come at any moment and you can take that to the bank. Be prepared.

 

[2ndAmendment]

Mmm... not necessarily. (But this is my opinion) If anyone falls away into apostasy, I'd see it more that he/she was never really completely sold out and committed in their life to Christ to begin with! When a person is truly born-again, there is no doubt at all about their relationship with Jesus and that they are a child of God.

Sounds Calvinistic. But then Calvin never really taught once saved always saved, but it is attributed to him.

See, the second coming is not the third coming because Jesus never actually touches the earth during the rapture sort of thing is where I have real misgivings with the pre-trib believers. The Late Great Planet Earth sort of stuff does not meet the test of scripture in my opinion. If the scripture has to be stretched into some shape to make it fit doctrine, then the doctrine is probably wrong.

But then, that is just my opinion. I will leave this. Might return to read a bit, but doubt I'll post on the subject. Jesus is coming back. I don't know when. Neither does anyone else. I'm good with that.

 

[foodcritic]

Try reading Revelation as several parallel accounts rather than a series.

That is my position also. I mentioned that in an earlier post. Rev 1-11 is chronological. 12-14 are a retelling of history. They overlap perfectly in accordance with MT 24, 1Thes, 2 Thes and Daniel.

 

[foodcritic]

FC, I'm tired of defending something that is not my own view, so I'm going to move on to my own.

A brief summary of what I believe:

vv. 4-14 - Jesus describes events that will happen before He returns, but we should not look to them to mean the End is going to happen soon.

vv. 15-20 - The horrible destruction of the temple and Jerusalem.

vv.21-28 - a period of "great tribulation" in between the destruction of the temple in 70 AD and the End of the Age. Essentially the entire church age.

vv.29-31Christ's return (parousia)

vv.32-35Everything necessary for Christ's return will occur within the original disciple's lifetime aka "this generation."

This does not mean it will happen then, and obviously didn't. However, Jesus is teaching that it is possible for Him to return at any moment after the destruction of the temple because will all be fulfilled.

Will many of these "signs" be repeated prior to the End? Undoubtedly yes. Have they happened already. Yes.

vv.36-46 Jesus can come at any moment and you can take that to the bank. Be prepared.

Why would you spend this much time advocating a view you don't believe yourself :shrug:

Now that have resolved that, can we discuss this view that you have?

 

[Starman3000m]

Sounds Calvinistic. But then Calvin never really taught once saved always saved, but it is attributed to him.

See, the second coming is not the third coming because Jesus never actually touches the earth during the rapture sort of thing is where I have real misgivings with the pre-trib believers. The Late Great Planet Earth sort of stuff does not meet the test of scripture in my opinion. If the scripture has to be stretched into some shape to make it fit doctrine, then the doctrine is probably wrong.

But then, that is just my opinion. I will leave this. Might return to read a bit, but doubt I'll post on the subject. Jesus is coming back. I don't know when. Neither does anyone else. I'm good with that.

Agreed - no one knows except for this: If we are present at the time when the Great Tribulation begins we will know that it will happen at the end of the 3 1/2 year period when "A" begins his global persecution and beheading of believers in Christ. Believers will then need to give themselves up to be beheaded for their faith or hide from the persecution and wait out the 3 1/2 years of "A" and his armies.

Regarding Calvinism: Calvin taught the theology of pre-ordained "election" which would then negate free-will. I believe every person is given free-will to choose whether to believe in Christ or whether to reject God's Plan of Salvation through Him and believe they can attain it some other way apart from Jesus. That decision is a personal one that every person will need to make.

If Calvinist theology were true then God is an unjust God and only offers Salvation to those who He was going to save anyway. As you know the following well-known verses of scripture negate Calvin's doctrine of "pre-ordained election"

That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. (John 3:15-17)

That's an invitation open to the whole world. And, although the Invitation is open to all, not all are going to believe and will reject the Holy Spirit's conviction. I believe that's when their name is blotted out of The Book of Life. I think we can both agree that God has the foreknowledge to already know who will and who will not accept His plan of Salvation through Christ's Atoning Blood. It's just that when they come before the Great White Throne Judgment they will not be able to say they had not been told.


Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Once Saved: Who would want to be "unsaved" ? IMO: When a person is genuinely born again, as Jesus said one must be, the promise is that he/she becomes a child of God and are sealed unto the day of redemption: One rejoices in growing and maturing in his/her spiritual fellowship with Christ. Can a Christian slip up and backslide? You bet - but that causes a break in fellowship with God that must be quickly restored through seeking forgiveness and reconciliation and getting back on track - it does not cause the loss of Salvation. When a person is saved, his/her Salvation is sealed unto the Day of Redemption:

Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;
Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts. (2 Corinthians 1:21-22)

and

Ephesians 1: verses;

12: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13: In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14: Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

and;

And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. (John 10:28-29)

and;

For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: (Romans 8:14-16)

 

[Zguy28]

Why would you spend this much time advocating a view you don't believe yourself :shrug:

I find it compelling point of view even though I disagree. And I like to argue.

Now that have resolved that, can we discuss this view that you have?

Sure.

I believe the "rapture" happens at Jesus' return and initiates the Millennium. Not before.

 

[foodcritic]

Agreed

This discussion is for rapture/endtimes ONLY.

 

[Zguy28]

Agreed - no one knows except for this: If we are present at the time when the Great Tribulation begins we will know that it will happen at the end of the 3 1/2 year period when "A" begins his global persecution and beheading of believers in Christ. Believers will then need to give themselves up to be beheaded for their faith or hide from the persecution and wait out the 3 1/2 years of "A" and his armies.

You're in it brother. We all are, and have been. The spirit of "anti-christ" has been alive and well since the time of the apostles taking various forms including Papal power and Islam.

Regarding Calvinism: Calvin taught the theology of pre-ordained "election" which would then negate free-will. I believe every person is given free-will to choose whether to believe in Christ or whether to reject God's Plan of Salvation through Him and believe they can attain it some other way apart from Jesus. That decision is a personal one that every person will need to make.

If Calvinist theology were true then God is an unjust God and only offers Salvation to those who He was going to save anyway. As you know the following well-known verses of scripture negate Calvin's doctrine of "pre-ordained election"

I disagree. I believe Paul did as well.

How can you ignore what he wrote in Romans 9?

10 Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac. 11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’” 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

EDIT: Sorry, guess this train left the eschatology track and started down the soteriology one. Apologies.

 

[Marie]

You're in it brother. We all are, and have been. The spirit of "anti-christ" has been alive and well since the time of the apostles taking various forms including Papal power and Islam.

I disagree. I believe Paul did as well.

How can you ignore what he wrote in Romans 9?

10 Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac. 11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’” 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

EDIT: Sorry, guess this train left the eschatology track and started down the soteriology one. Apologies.

Or it makes Gods Grace all that more amazing, to think he would save anyone!
None of us deserve it, in fact we deserve just the opposite he should have just wiped us off the planet after the first sin.
To think its unfair that God is gracious to save anyone, comes from a wrong perspective about who and what you are.

Your valued, not valuable!

 

[Starman3000m]

This discussion is for rapture/endtimes ONLY.

LOL

OK -but the initial point at the beginning of the post was that IF we see "A" start up the One World Government/One World Religion system with global persecutions, then, according to Revelation 13, we would all know that the war of Armageddon is up and coming and Jesus' return will take place in 3 1/2 years from that point.

Revelation 13:
3: And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
4: And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
5: And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.6: And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7: And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8: And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
9: If any man have an ear, let him hear.

 

[Starman3000m]

...I disagree. I believe Paul did as well.
How can you ignore what he wrote in Romans 9?

... 14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

Let's Cross-Reference this to Exodus 33 where that specific comment stems from:

Exodus 33:

(Moses speaking to God)
16: For wherein shall it be known here that I and thy people have found grace in thy sight? is it not in that thou goest with us? so shall we be separated, I and thy people, from all the people that are upon the face of the earth.

(God's comment) 17: And the LORD said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name.
18: And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory.
19: And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.

V-16 Sounds more like Moses was being presumptious that only he and his people (Israelites) would have God's Grace separate from all the people on earth.

V-19 Sounds more like God is saying to Moses: "Not so fast, Moe, I'm going to be gracious to whom I want to be and I am going to show mercy on whoever I want to show mercy."

That really flies in the face of Israelites of that time who looked down upon the Gentiles and deemed them less worthy of God's Grace.

 

[Zguy28]

Let's Cross-Reference this to Exodus 33 where that specific comment stems from:

Exodus 33:

(Moses speaking to God)
16: For wherein shall it be known here that I and thy people have found grace in thy sight? is it not in that thou goest with us? so shall we be separated, I and thy people, from all the people that are upon the face of the earth.

(God's comment) 17: And the LORD said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name.
18: And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory.
19: And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.

V-16 Sounds more like Moses was being presumptious that only he and his people (Israelites) would have God's Grace separate from all the people on earth.

V-19 Sounds more like God is saying to Moses: "Not so fast, Moe, I'm going to be gracious to whom I want to be and I am going to show mercy on whoever I want to show mercy."

That really flies in the face of Israelites of that time who looked down upon the Gentiles and deemed them less worthy of God's Grace.

So do you disagree with the apostle Paul or not?

 

[Starman3000m]

So do you disagree with the apostle Paul or not?

Recall that Paul had been a zealous Orthodox Pharisee (a Pharisee of Pharisees) and he led persecutions against other Jewish people who placed their faith in Jesus being their Messiah. Paul was present at the stoning of Stephen. He believed he was doing the right thing for God until his encounter with the risen Lord on the way to Damascus with plans to carry out more persecutions.

The point is that, yes, God had selected various individuals to carry out his purpose of testing His people. Yes, God hardened Pharoah's heart for the intended purpose, yes, Jesus chose Judas, also for the intended purpose. Do they have a chance at salvation? I'd say they don't.

God had mercy on Paul and used him for His specific purpose. Through Paul many inspiring and insightful teachings of Christ and our relationship with Christ were written. Upon conversion, Paul understood that he was specifically pre-destined, as were the other Apostles, to carry out the message of Salvation through Grace to the world and to make disciples of men.

Yes, the Bible also says that upon hearing God's Word, some will respond and some people's hearts will be hardened but that is because they rejected God's Grace, they allowed themselves to be deceived and remained blinded by Satan (the god of this world) because they loved darkness rather than light. (Recall the Parable of the Sower and the seed)

However, if you are saying that Paul stipulates that from among all the people in this world God has already pre-ordained whom He is going to give salvation to and whom he is not going to give salvation to, then I disagree with your understanding of God's Grace and that perhaps you may be misunderstanding what Paul was referring to.

God's Grace is open to all, lest the Atheists and scoffers in this forum have no chance of being saved and your effort to share the Good News of Salvation through Jesus Christ to them is in vain.