ROFLMAO - a must read!

SamSpade

Well-Known Member
PREMO Member
SkinkTyree said:
and the fact he now has said he doesn't spend much time on Osama Bin Laden.
In 2002 - as in anything, *context* matters......
From the WH:



Q But don't you believe that the threat that bin Laden posed won't truly be eliminated until he is found either dead or alive?

THE PRESIDENT: Well, as I say, we haven't heard much from him. And I wouldn't necessarily say he's at the center of any command structure. And, again, I don't know where he is. I -- I'll repeat what I said. I truly am not that concerned about him. I know he is on the run. I was concerned about him, when he had taken over a country. I was concerned about the fact that he was basically running Afghanistan and calling the shots for the Taliban. But once we set out the policy and started executing the plan, he became -- we shoved him out more and more on the margins. He has no place to train his al Qaeda killers anymore. And if we -- excuse me for a minute -- and if we find a training camp, we'll take care of it. Either we will or our friends will.



----------------------------------------



To say that as though it means, he doesn't CARE anymore, is to be dishonest at best. Of course it matters to capture him. But he's not in charge of anything, because of the peculiar organization of al-Qaeda. Capturing bin Laden right now wouldn't stop al-Qaeda. It'd be a political coup de grace - but it doesn't stop the threat, just as capturing Saddam didn't end the insurgency.

If he had said he didn't care about Saddam - before he was captured - could you get the idea?
 

vraiblonde

Board Mommy
PREMO Member
Patron
SkinkTyree said:
You also have to keep in mind President Bush has had the luxury of a friendly congress for essentially his entire term, something President Clinton did not have for most of his.
Why do you suppose that is?

Think real hard :bubble:
 

Ken King

A little rusty but not crusty
PREMO Member
Skink,

Okay, no conviction got it, though he was held in contempt and eventually had his license to practice law in Arkansas suspended for 5 years. The fact still remains that while under oath he admittedly provided false, evasive, or misleading responses during the discovery phase. As to the materiality of the “questions” during discovery, and thus the “responses”, isn’t this an unknown and something that is left up to the court to determine or does the deposed make that determination and is free to provide whatever response they desire whether they be truthful or false? Why is it then that such responses are given under an oath of truthfulness or face penalty under law, is it to assure that the information obtained is the truth and that the materiality can be effectively determined as it relates to the charges?

By providing knowingly false responses in an effort to hinder the judicial process, like what took place here, seems to be the essence of why there are laws against such activity. If the questions/interrogatories were not material why were they allowed in the first place? My take is that until the responses were given the materiality of the information garnered was yet uncertain. And while the materiality determination may have found them to be irrelevant as the proceeding moved forward the responses were willfully and contrary to such oath to provide truthful answers. Thus they were perjurious in nature at the time they were offered.
 

2ndAmendment

Just a forgiven sinner
PREMO Member
Skink provides the perfect evidence of why the joke, "What do you call 10,000 lawyers at the bottom of Lake Michigan? A good start." is funny.
 
Ken King said:
Skink,

Okay, no conviction got it, though he was held in contempt and eventually had his license to practice law in Arkansas suspended for 5 years. The fact still remains that while under oath he admittedly provided false, evasive, or misleading responses during the discovery phase. As to the materiality of the “questions” during discovery, and thus the “responses”, isn’t this an unknown and something that is left up to the court to determine or does the deposed make that determination and is free to provide whatever response they desire whether they be truthful or false? Why is it then that such responses are given under an oath of truthfulness or face penalty under law, is it to assure that the information obtained is the truth and that the materiality can be effectively determined as it relates to the charges?

By providing knowingly false responses in an effort to hinder the judicial process, like what took place here, seems to be the essence of why there are laws against such activity. If the questions/interrogatories were not material why were they allowed in the first place? My take is that until the responses were given the materiality of the information garnered was yet uncertain. And while the materiality determination may have found them to be irrelevant as the proceeding moved forward the responses were willfully and contrary to such oath to provide truthful answers. Thus they were perjurious in nature at the time they were offered.

Mr. King,

With all due respect, I think you've answered your own question. Obviously, it is in the spirit of the court for parties to be fully forthcoming, honest and responsive, no matter whether the subject of questioning be relevant or irrelevant. However, it is also realized that criminal prosecution for such failure should only be reserved for the most egregious of instances, that being when the untruth is directly relevant to the matter at hand. For the former instance, mere civil sanctions are sufficient. And in the case with President Clinton, such action was indeed taken as you have pointed out. But if we were to criminally prosecute for every little mistruth, ommission and lie no matter how irrelevant, our court system would literally be overburdened by the massive caseload. That and fundamental due process is why perjury is only reserved for relevant falsehoods under oath.

As for the issue of relevancy during discovery--neither depositions nor interrogatories are conducted in the presence of a judge. A lawyer may object to a line of questioning as being irrelevant or soliciting hearsay testimony, but except in cases of attorney-client privilege, the deponent still must answer. Discovery is not any sort of a "mini-trial" as it merely is a fact finding process for the parties to sort through so they can present the relevant evidence at trial. Going to trial generally sorts out what is and what is not relevant. Now here, Jones v. Clinton never went to trial, which makes proving perjury more difficult because there is no final outcome (i.e. acquital or conviction) one can point to as being affected by any mistruth. This isn't to say you couldn't bring perjury in an instance where a case never goes to trial, but you still have to ask but-for the false testimony would it have impacted the matter at hand. Here, but-for President Clinton falesly denying his relationship with Ms. Lewinsky, would it have affected Ms. Jones' presentation of the facts of what she alleged occurred at the Excelsior Hotel that night? And in the end, it's a major stretch to say that it would--you are looking at a consensual relationship as opposed to an alleged non-consensual act of proposition, and there's very few, if any, lines to be drawn between the two.

I think in the end the weakness of the perjury case showed. I think neither President Clinton nor Mr. Ray (Ken Starr's successor in the OIC) wanted to lose face but both also realized the reality of the situation. So the agreement not to prosecute (which is different than a plea bargain, by the way) was entered into. No matter if he even thought he had a strong chance of accquital, President Clinton probably did not want to have to go through what he had to go through in all of 1998 and part of 1999 and was willing to do without his law license for five years. While the OIC was still being pressured to press criminal perjury charges by conservatives who somehow thought President Clinton "got away with it" during the impeachment process, I think Mr. Ray knew the case for perjury was extremely tenuous at best, that the prior impeachment charges of perjury had ended in acquittal (by the way, with a much more lienient standard of guilt than what is assigned at the criminal level), and it most likely would have ended up being a waste of time and money. In the end, both Clinton and Ray got to essentially wash their hands of the matter and put it to bed. Clinton did not have to sit through further embarassing testimony regarding his private life, and Ray got to throw a bone to the conservatives riding his back, that he got Clinton's law license suspended.
 
2ndAmendment said:
Skink provides the perfect evidence of why the joke, "What do you call 10,000 lawyers at the bottom of Lake Michigan? A good start." is funny.


Actually, the one I like is from Steven Wright: "99% of lawyers are giving the rest a bad name."
 

Ken King

A little rusty but not crusty
PREMO Member
SkinkTyree said:
Mr. King,

With all due respect, I think you've answered your own question. Obviously, it is in the spirit of the court for parties to be fully forthcoming, honest and responsive, no matter whether the subject of questioning be relevant or irrelevant. However, it is also realized that criminal prosecution for such failure should only be reserved for the most egregious of instances, that being when the untruth is directly relevant to the matter at hand. For the former instance, mere civil sanctions are sufficient. And in the case with President Clinton, such action was indeed taken as you have pointed out. But if we were to criminally prosecute for every little mistruth, ommission and lie no matter how irrelevant, our court system would literally be overburdened by the massive caseload. That and fundamental due process is why perjury is only reserved for relevant falsehoods under oath.

As for the issue of relevancy during discovery--neither depositions nor interrogatories are conducted in the presence of a judge. A lawyer may object to a line of questioning as being irrelevant or soliciting hearsay testimony, but except in cases of attorney-client privilege, the deponent still must answer. Discovery is not any sort of a "mini-trial" as it merely is a fact finding process for the parties to sort through so they can present the relevant evidence at trial. Going to trial generally sorts out what is and what is not relevant. Now here, Jones v. Clinton never went to trial, which makes proving perjury more difficult because there is no final outcome (i.e. acquital or conviction) one can point to as being affected by any mistruth. This isn't to say you couldn't bring perjury in an instance where a case never goes to trial, but you still have to ask but-for the false testimony would it have impacted the matter at hand. Here, but-for President Clinton falesly denying his relationship with Ms. Lewinsky, would it have affected Ms. Jones' presentation of the facts of what she alleged occurred at the Excelsior Hotel that night? And in the end, it's a major stretch to say that it would--you are looking at a consensual relationship as opposed to an alleged non-consensual act of proposition, and there's very few, if any, lines to be drawn between the two.

I think in the end the weakness of the perjury case showed. I think neither President Clinton nor Mr. Ray (Ken Starr's successor in the OIC) wanted to lose face but both also realized the reality of the situation. So the agreement not to prosecute (which is different than a plea bargain, by the way) was entered into. No matter if he even thought he had a strong chance of accquital, President Clinton probably did not want to have to go through what he had to go through in all of 1998 and part of 1999 and was willing to do without his law license for five years. While the OIC was still being pressured to press criminal perjury charges by conservatives who somehow thought President Clinton "got away with it" during the impeachment process, I think Mr. Ray knew the case for perjury was extremely tenuous at best, that the prior impeachment charges of perjury had ended in acquittal (by the way, with a much more lienient standard of guilt than what is assigned at the criminal level), and it most likely would have ended up being a waste of time and money. In the end, both Clinton and Ray got to essentially wash their hands of the matter and put it to bed. Clinton did not have to sit through further embarassing testimony regarding his private life, and Ray got to throw a bone to the conservatives riding his back, that he got Clinton's law license suspended.
I appreciate the responses and truly am learning quite a deal about the issue at hand.

But with that said, wouldn't one of the "most egregious of instances" be where it is the Chief Executive of the Nation (or any other high ranking government official) is the one that has done the lying, even in an instance not directly related to their official duties?

The person at question was after all a licensed lawyer and should have been knowing of the laws and procedures as they pertained to his acts. As such, shouldn't they be scrutinized more so then your average Joe? Which I guess you could say that they were with the resulting contempt citation.
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
Alas...

SkinkTyree said:
Easy there, fella. Your boy G. Dub's still has two and a half years until he's scot free. A thing like warrantless wiretapping, quite clearly against the law, might change things. That or some possible personal connection in the still-ongoing Plame investigation.

AWOL and cocaine are long past history. Don't care about that. Plus the statute of limitations have long run on those things regardless.

Weather machines???

His actions (or lack thereof) relating to Katrina can best be described as gross negligence, but I wouldn't catagorize it as criminal...at least not yet. Same goes for his strange non-reaction on the morning of September 11th, and the fact he now has said he doesn't spend much time on Osama Bin Laden.

Iraq and WMD is a wild card. If there can be a smoking gun produced, it would cause major problems. So far things like the Downing Street Memo have hinted at things, but it remains to be seen if there is going to be more down the road.

You also have to keep in mind President Bush has had the luxury of a friendly congress for essentially his entire term, something President Clinton did not have for most of his.


...your heart must be of stone; so much compassion and understanding for Bill, none for W.

It is heart wrenching that you assert something as 'clearly' illegal for one poor soul, yet another is nearly a virgin because of lack of legal satisfaction. Whatever happened to justice being blind? Presumption of innocence? Alas I say, alas.

Yes, weather machines. You haven't heard that one? How about the pipeline that runs from Baghdad to Dick Cheneys basement? No? Well, none of it's proven...yet.

Why is one person guilty of gross negligence when people chose to not leave town when told to due to a massive hurricane and another is NOT guilty of gross negligence for doing nothing about the numerous terror attacks against us from 1993 to 2000? All those people did was go to work and report for duty when they got murdered.

As far as WMD, there was a smoking gun. He's on trial now. Hopefully a threat no more. You ever read the Iraq War Resolution? Just curious. Would you vote for him to still be in power? maybe more inspections? A couple more UN resolutions? How about oil for food? Leave it to the French?

As far as this one goes:

You also have to keep in mind President Bush has had the luxury of a friendly congress for essentially his entire term, something President Clinton did not have for most of h

...that is the take of the year, the luxury. Bill Clinton took office with a strong Democratic majority in the House and, if memory serves, a majority in the Senate. Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that Clinton wiped out both majorities and Bush maintained his by vote of confidence on the part of the people who elect the members of both bodies?

No? Clinton didn't do that either? No conviction in a court of law? Well, you got me there.

Well, you've done a nice job of ignoring the travel office, Lippo, Loral, the fund raising scandals, (almost forgot Vince Foster) Trie and Chung and Livingston and the FBI files and Whitewater and the McDougals and and and...

I think you're being really unfair especially when I've so graciously conceded that you can have the sex stuff any way you need it to be.
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
Man...

SkinkTyree said:
Mr. King,

With all due respect, I think you've answered your own question. Obviously, it is in the spirit of the court for parties to be fully forthcoming, honest and responsive, no matter whether the subject of questioning be relevant or irrelevant. However, it is also realized that criminal prosecution for such failure should only be reserved for the most egregious of instances, that being when the untruth is directly relevant to the matter at hand. For the former instance, mere civil sanctions are sufficient. And in the case with President Clinton, such action was indeed taken as you have pointed out. But if we were to criminally prosecute for every little mistruth, ommission and lie no matter how irrelevant, our court system would literally be overburdened by the massive caseload. That and fundamental due process is why perjury is only reserved for relevant falsehoods under oath.

As for the issue of relevancy during discovery--neither depositions nor interrogatories are conducted in the presence of a judge. A lawyer may object to a line of questioning as being irrelevant or soliciting hearsay testimony, but except in cases of attorney-client privilege, the deponent still must answer. Discovery is not any sort of a "mini-trial" as it merely is a fact finding process for the parties to sort through so they can present the relevant evidence at trial. Going to trial generally sorts out what is and what is not relevant. Now here, Jones v. Clinton never went to trial, which makes proving perjury more difficult because there is no final outcome (i.e. acquital or conviction) one can point to as being affected by any mistruth. This isn't to say you couldn't bring perjury in an instance where a case never goes to trial, but you still have to ask but-for the false testimony would it have impacted the matter at hand. Here, but-for President Clinton falesly denying his relationship with Ms. Lewinsky, would it have affected Ms. Jones' presentation of the facts of what she alleged occurred at the Excelsior Hotel that night? And in the end, it's a major stretch to say that it would--you are looking at a consensual relationship as opposed to an alleged non-consensual act of proposition, and there's very few, if any, lines to be drawn between the two.

I think in the end the weakness of the perjury case showed. I think neither President Clinton nor Mr. Ray (Ken Starr's successor in the OIC) wanted to lose face but both also realized the reality of the situation. So the agreement not to prosecute (which is different than a plea bargain, by the way) was entered into. No matter if he even thought he had a strong chance of accquital, President Clinton probably did not want to have to go through what he had to go through in all of 1998 and part of 1999 and was willing to do without his law license for five years. While the OIC was still being pressured to press criminal perjury charges by conservatives who somehow thought President Clinton "got away with it" during the impeachment process, I think Mr. Ray knew the case for perjury was extremely tenuous at best, that the prior impeachment charges of perjury had ended in acquittal (by the way, with a much more lienient standard of guilt than what is assigned at the criminal level), and it most likely would have ended up being a waste of time and money. In the end, both Clinton and Ray got to essentially wash their hands of the matter and put it to bed. Clinton did not have to sit through further embarassing testimony regarding his private life, and Ray got to throw a bone to the conservatives riding his back, that he got Clinton's law license suspended.


...if I ever do anything wrong, would you represent me? What do you charge an hour? Do you reject right wing zealots out of hand, on principle, or just charge more?
 

Kerad

New Member
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to SkinkTyree again

Nice job. Shut down their argument to the point where they can't even remember what they were arguing about. Funny how the FACTS twist their response.

:yay:
 

FromTexas

This Space for Rent
Kerad said:
Nice job. Shut down their argument to the point where they can't even remember what they were arguing about. Funny how the FACTS twist their response.

:yay:

You mean that fact that Clinton wasn't held criminally accountable over his own admitted lies to the American people who he was supposed to represent as part of his sworn duty? I can accept that he wasn't. :lol:
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
You do take the cake...

Kerad said:
Nice job. Shut down their argument to the point where they can't even remember what they were arguing about. Funny how the FACTS twist their response.

:yay:


...if I ever do anything wrong, would you represent me? What do you charge an hour? Do you reject right wing zealots out of hand, on principle, or just charge more?


...in missing the clue bus.
 

vraiblonde

Board Mommy
PREMO Member
Patron
Kerad said:
Nice job. Shut down their argument to the point where they can't even remember what they were arguing about. Funny how the FACTS twist their response.
Don't even pretend you read all that. I think we both know that you recognized a kindred spirit in Skink, so you :yeahthat: him as a matter of course.

If you can read all of Skink's legalistic bait and switch, why don't you take a gander at the Iraq War Resolution, then check out who voted for it? And while you're in a reading kind of mood, check out some of the statements Congressional Democrats made about Iraq while Clinton was President, then compare them to the about-face they all did once Bush became President?
 
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