Roger Clemens Named in Steroid Report

Larry Gude

Strung Out
I'm not joking...

I have to disagree with you, you are joking with this remark:

Quote: After all, they get to see a guy like Bonds and Clements play for 20 plus years. How bad can it be, really? No baseball players are dropping dead.

...and I do NOT know. I have no clue what harm hgh does or does not do to a person as used by baseball players. I'd be happy to be educated, so, by all means, share what you know. I am serious from the standpoint of 'how bad can it be'?; These guys are not total morons. They are using. They are not dropping dead. The seem awful damn healthy to me.
 

SweetThang

New Member
Those desperate to cheat will always find ways to do that-perhaps human-growth hormone (the secret boost) is the "new game".:evil:
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
What if...

Those desperate to cheat will always find ways to do that-perhaps human-growth hormone (the secret boost) is the "new game".:evil:

...'mom's chicken soup' helped a player play better, stay healthier? I'm curious what the big deal truly is about hgh and steroids; the player STILL has to lift the weights, still has to hit the ball, catch the ball, throw the ball. I mean, is weightlifting cheating? Is eating right? Taking vitamins? What about six cups of coffee before a game? For that matter, is praying for success cheating, at least in spirit?

What about film study? Trying to steal signs? If hgh is basically harmless to health, why do we actually care if it is used? Why d owe disparage a professional athlete for trying to have a healthier body?

Obviously, crazy concoctions are inherently dangerous as would be making your own booze. At least it can be. If the science says 'roids and/or hgh are good for you, what is our real issue? What if hgh helps a carpenter with his tired, aching muscles? What if helps a waitress? So on and so forth???
 

Plan B

New Member
In Slate.com:
''Bush's power meter is a poignant reminder of how much his presidency has atrophied. At the same time, it's a potent symbol of why George W. Bush has been the perfect president for the steroid era.

The Mitchell report doesn't quite name Bush as a party to the steroid scandal, but the trail of evidence runs alarmingly close to his skybox. Mitchell didn't have subpoena power, so the report reads like a National Intelligence Estimate of Major League Baseball: Until the key players are more forthcoming, it's hard to be certain what they were doing, and none too reassuring to be told that they've stopped. Guilt by association is not the same as actual guilt. But if friends don't let friends do performance-enhancing drugs, the former Texas Rangers owner has a few too many buddies on Mitchell's list.

Before the Mitchell report, two of the biggest steroid suspects were ex-Rangers from the Bush years, Jose Canseco and Rafael Palmeiro. Canseco wrote the book on drugs in baseball. Palmeiro lied to Congress about it under oath. While most baseball players steer clear of politics, Palmeiro gave Bush's 2004 campaign the maximum of $4,000.

Mitchell added some new names to Bush's friends list. Roger Clemens, the biggest fish in Mitchell's dragnet, is a longtime Bushie. A Clemens profile last year in USA Today said "he has a standing invitation to dine at the White House." Clemens is so close to the Bushes, he built a horseshoe pit at his house for George H.W. Bush. Andy Pettitte, who has now admitted using human growth hormone, once joined Clemens in a video tribute called "Happy 80th Birthday, 41." When George W. Bush threw out the first pitch in Cincinnati last year, Kent Mercker (also accused of buying growth hormone) showed his support by waving a Bush-Cheney hat.

The Bush campaign called top fundraisers "Rangers," but contributors included Mets, Orioles, and Yankees as well. Palmeiro was not alone: Mike Stanton, who gave $3,200 to clubhouse drug dealer Kirk Radomski in 2003, gave $750 to the Republican National Committee the following year. John Giambi – the proud father of Jason and Jeremy, who've both admitted using steroids – was an early supporter of Bush's 2000 campaign. The Mitchell report reproduces two checks Mo Vaughn wrote Radomski for $5,400. Last year, Vaughn gave $5,000 to a conservative PAC that has given to George Allen, Larry Craig, and the Bush campaign.

Jose Canseco claims the Mitchell report is incomplete because it left out Alex Rodriguez. While A-Rod denies using steroids, he did give Bush $2,000. By contrast, Hank Aaron, who played his entire career without an asterisk, has contributed to staunch opponents of Bush like Max Cleland and Hillary Clinton.

Two years ago, Bush defended his friend Palmeiro when he tested positive after testifying negative. Last week, Bush sought to deflect attention from friends listed in the Mitchell report: "I think it's best that all of us not jump to any conclusions on individual players named."

But the most damning evidence of Bush's complicity in baseball's era of denial is his own role in the trade that helped start it all. In the summer of '92, as it became apparent that his father would lose the White House, Bush was desperate to get the Rangers into the playoffs for the first time in the 30-year history of the franchise. He had his eye on Jose Canseco, Mark McGwire's gargantuan Bash Brother with the Oakland A's, who had led the majors in home runs the year before...''
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
I heard...

...the dumbest thing on Sportscenter; Can't remember the players name, but, he was being questioned about his use and his name being in the report. At not time did the interviewer ask him THE question; did it work?

The guy, the player, went round and round about how it was dumb and he's embarrassed and he wanted to get back playing, not gain any competitive advantage and so on and he did add, on his own, that it didn't work. It was very quick and the interviewer acted like he didn't even hear it.

I mean, come on. Didn't work? So all these ####ing guys are risking health and career not to mention infamy and perhaps jail and it doesn't work?

Paaaaalllleweeeeez.


So, folks, who knows the dope about hgh??? Come on.
 

donbarzini

Well-Known Member
I think you're talking about Fernando Vina; who is now a regular on their "Baseball Tonight" crew. As a matter of fact, he occupied the chair that Harold Reynolds vacated when he was fired. Maybe they should go with a two-man crew and leave that spot vacant, huh?
 

donbarzini

Well-Known Member
Football fans, maybe we are guilty of too much of a gladiator thing where we are the ones not objecting enough to the abuse football players suffer.

Hmmm...

You and I have conversed in other threads about the Roman Empire analogy , and I still think that analogy is spot-on. The emphasis put on sports in general and athlete-heroes in particular are bringing us closer to the society depicted in the original "Rollerball" movie with James Caan. For those of you not "experienced" enough to recall the movie, it bears no semblance whatsoever to the drek that featured Rebecca Romijn's rather prodigious attributes and not much more. Rent the original and see if you agree.
 
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Larry Gude

Strung Out
Nope...

So.... Am I reading that Roids in pro sports is good and will be overlooked, unless some kills thier family?

...I would simply like to know the facts.

It seems that steroids are about getting big, growing muscle and that hgh is about healing muscle and recovering from exercise. I don't KNOW, but I am curious.

Think about it; can you think of any rage incidents with baseball?

Pro wrestlers need to be ripped and big. That means anything that helps them grow and be able to workout more often to keep the tone is of interest. They also have to perform several times a week. When you read about wrestlers it tends to be a cauldron of drugs and alcohol anyway; uppers to go perform, downers to relax and party. Throw in steroids and other stuff and the history shows alot of crazy behavior and alot of dying young.

Football players need size and explosiveness, not necessarily to be ripped. For the most part, the biggest guys, the O and D linemen are noted for being pretty mellow dudes off the field. It's the ripped little guys who seem to get crazy. And they all need to only play once a week. They get lots and lots of strains and pulls, so healing is a big deal.

Now, baseball, you need to hit or throw first and foremost. Running is nice. Past that you just need to be able to play several days per week.

I'm just interested.
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
Yup...

I think you're talking about Fernando Vina; who is now a regular on their "Baseball Tonight" crew. As a matter of fact, he occupied the chair that Harold Reynolds vacated when he was fired. Maybe they should go with a two-man crew and leave that spot vacant, huh?

...that's him!
 

LordStanley

I know nothing
...I would simply like to know the facts.

It seems that steroids are about getting big, growing muscle and that hgh is about healing muscle and recovering from exercise. I don't KNOW, but I am curious.

Think about it; can you think of any rage incidents with baseball?

Pro wrestlers need to be ripped and big. That means anything that helps them grow and be able to workout more often to keep the tone is of interest. They also have to perform several times a week. When you read about wrestlers it tends to be a cauldron of drugs and alcohol anyway; uppers to go perform, downers to relax and party. Throw in steroids and other stuff and the history shows alot of crazy behavior and alot of dying young.

Football players need size and explosiveness, not necessarily to be ripped. For the most part, the biggest guys, the O and D linemen are noted for being pretty mellow dudes off the field. It's the ripped little guys who seem to get crazy. And they all need to only play once a week. They get lots and lots of strains and pulls, so healing is a big deal.

Now, baseball, you need to hit or throw first and foremost. Running is nice. Past that you just need to be able to play several days per week.

I'm just interested.

Im sorry, but I cant agree with that generalization of pro wrestling. There are just as many drug/non steriod related cases in all pro sports.


Here is an intresting read.
no mas: Illustrated History of Recreational Drugs and Sports
Course these were the only ones ever caught.
 

USWWarrior

It's a Jeep thang!
I have sat, read parts of the report and really considered a lot of things. I agree with Larry, I need to know more about HGH, the cream, etc. I know what steroids is used for and intended outcome. But this otherstuff, I am not quite sure yet. It is also proven that when they quit using, their bodies lose the bulk. I was quite amazed at the appearance of some wrestlers lately. They look skinny and downright "normal". I am not a fan or wrestling, but when channel surfing, I do stop every so often. Gimabi looks different today. Bonds looks the same. If he was on it and stopped, why is he still bulky? Maybe it is because of his workout routine. I just don't know.

I also agree with Larry, MLB needs to get off Barry Bonds back. If you deny him everything he accomplished, then the list better include ALL of the others. But that is where my problem lies. Is it ALL? From what I gathered, the report was basically drafted from a few peoples account of events. There were many that did not come forward nor did they "agree" to disclose. The report is based upon people already in trouble with federal law. I am not accusing them of providing false testimony, but we all know how sometimes people will "sugarcoat" the truth.

Bottom line: The players were responsible and I will not feel otherwise. They could have said, "NO".

But, that leads me to the second issue. To me, in my humble opinion, this is more than baseball. This is about an industry that is exploiting today's athlete for the fans hunger of superstar performance. The drugs are available to be used and there are people whose job it is to "market" these things to the athlete. So who is to blame for this, the industry, the fans for the need to have superstars? Again, I want to emphasize, the athlete should have said no. But how many times were there the instances of "personal trainers" telling the athlete, no problem, this is not illegal. How do I not know that Roger Clemens thought he was receiving something else in his shots? How do I not know that Barry Bonds actually thought the creme was linseed oil? Granted, it seems they did know. But given the source of information, I question the validity of it.

I do not blame George Mitchell one bit. He was hired to do a job, did it the best he could and provided some insight into the issue. But to be frank, it still is not enough. To me, all this is going to do is quiet the speculation, make the players be more careful and give ammunition to MLB during the next bargaining period.

To me, it simply left more questions that need to be answered.

I used to be a livid baseball fan, until the last strike. I still am not where I used to be. I used to be a hockey fan until the last strike and do not see myself going back. I am a football fan, until the next strike. To me, when it cost me over $100.00 to enjoy a night with my daughter at a professional sporting event, then it is too much. It is a sport and a form of entertainment. But then again, will sports ever be the same as when I grew up as a kid? Probably not.

This so called "steroid or hgh" issue had no impact on my feelings towards sports. The rising cost of salaries, the rising cost of tickets, the rising costs of parking, the rising costs of beers and hot dogs or even hot chocolate. The players acting like idiots for all to see. The atheltes getting in trouble with the law and being held to a different standard. The amount of "illegal drug" use by today's athletes. That is what is driving me away from professional sports.

Baseball has the report, let them decide the next step.
 
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