Rudy Giuliani on gun confiscation

[2ndAmendment]

...interesting. So, the preeminent document of our nation doesn't apply here?

Do explain.

The Declaration of Independence is not superior to the U.S. Constitution. The Declaration of Independence was equivalent to a declaration of war, nothing more. It was written before there was a United States. The Constitution is the document upon which the United States is constructed. Without the Constitution there is no United States and all authority granted to the central government flows from the Constitution.

 

[Novus Collectus]

Amatol? Old timer.

Old reference books
One book had a first printing in 1943 and I doubt it was updated.

An ANFO with a efficiency of 1.6 TNT means that it is 1.6 times as powerful as TNT as I understand it. FO is fuel oil but ANFO can be used to mean mixtures other than fuel oil, i.e., nitromethane.

Cool, I learned something.

 

[Larry Gude]

And we go 'round and round...

The Declaration of Independence is not superior to the U.S. Constitution. The Declaration of Independence was equivalent to a declaration of war, nothing more. It was written before there was a United States. The Constitution is the document upon which the United States is constructed. Without the Constitution there is no United States and all authority granted to the central government flows from the Constitution.

...again. This isn't chicken or egg. There is NO Constitution sans our independence. There would have been a Declaration of Independence without the Constitution. But George sure wasn't gonna let us have a Constitution without that declaration of independence.

It came first and it is the preeminent American document. It just is.

 

[RadioPatrol]

that is the point the author of the article I quoted makes ......... Decleration - followed by Constitution ............

 

[Larry Gude]

Why would you...

You are trying despeerately to confuse the issue.

...say something that silly?

If there is any confusion on how our nation was formed and what set us on our course in terms of our founding documents, I say respectfully, that confusion is yours.

If this helps, the Declaration is our, in effect, mission statement, the foundation of who we are and what we believe. The Constitution followed up with the specific rules, but it's guiding principles came first and are found in the Declaration of Independence.

 

[Larry Gude]

Lol...

Friends, romaines, countrymen, lend me your ears.

"I come not to graze Ceasar, but to plant him" ???

Ok, that's falling apart!

 

[Larry Gude]

Oh look...

I think Larry can be satisfied with one of these <img src="http://www.tanksforsale.co.uk/T72_113/T72_in_the_UK%20(1).jpg">

...it's an all weather Yugo!

Pass.

 

[Novus Collectus]

"I come not to graze Ceasar, but to plant him" ???

Ok, that's falling apart!

Wow, first you try to confuse the issue, and now you are tossing salad jokes into the mix? Why don't you try addressing the issue for one? Lettuce be serious here for a minute, leaf the humor alone and quit while you are a head.

 

[2ndAmendment]

...again. This isn't chicken or egg. There is NO Constitution sans our independence. There would have been a Declaration of Independence without the Constitution. But George sure wasn't gonna let us have a Constitution without that declaration of independence.

It came first and it is the preeminent American document. It just is.

It may be the first or one of the first American documents; it is not preeminent; it does not have paramount rank, dignity, or importance compared to the Constitution.

The Declaration of Independence would have still existed even if the colonies had lost the revolution; the Constitution would not. The United States was not the United States as a nation until the Constitution was ratified by the colonies or states. The Constitution is the preeminent document to the Declaration of Independence. The United States could still be the United States if no Declaration of Independence had been written. The United States could not be the United States if the Constitution or similar document had not been written.

 

[2ndAmendment]

...say something that silly?

If there is any confusion on how our nation was formed and what set us on our course in terms of our founding documents, I say respectfully, that confusion is yours.

If this helps, the Declaration is our, in effect, mission statement, the foundation of who we are and what we believe. The Constitution followed up with the specific rules, but it's guiding principles came first and are found in the Declaration of Independence.

The Declaration of Independence sets forth no guarantee of rights or delineation of powers; it only sets forth the reasons the colonies are justified in separating from the British Empire.

 

[Larry Gude]

There's that...

It may be the first or one of the first American documents; it is not preeminent; it does not have paramount rank, dignity, or importance compared to the Constitution.

The Declaration of Independence would have still existed even if the colonies had lost the revolution; the Constitution would not. The United States was not the United States as a nation until the Constitution was ratified by the colonies or states. The Constitution is the preeminent document to the Declaration of Independence. The United States could still be the United States if no Declaration of Independence had been written. The United States could not be the United States if the Constitution or similar document had not been written.

...tornado you were talking about; Round and round.

 

[Larry Gude]

Lol...

Wow, first you try to confuse the issue, and now you are tossing salad jokes into the mix? Why don't you try addressing the issue for one? Lettuce be serious here for a minute, leaf the humor alone and quit while you are a head.

 

[2ndAmendment]

...tornado you were talking about; Round and round.

Only round and round in your mind, not mine. The United States is not formed unless there is a Constitution or like document. The United States can be formed without a Declaration of Independence. The existence of the United States is dependent on the Constitution. The existence of the United States is independent of the Declaration of Independence.

For the life of me, I don't understand how you don't understand that concept.

 

[Larry Gude]

Of course you...

Only round and round in your mind, not mine. The United States is not formed unless there is a Constitution or like document. The United States can be formed without a Declaration of Independence. The existence of the United States is dependent on the Constitution. The existence of the United States is independent of the Declaration of Independence.

For the life of me, I don't understand how you don't understand that concept.

...don't. You're not listening. To you, there is a Constitution without the DoI.
The DoI came first as the cornerstone to what was to come. That makes no sense in your mind as though two people get married first and then declare their love for one another later. Or not at all. You gotta declare an intention before you do anything else.

I understand; there is no way you will see that. I got it.

 

[2ndAmendment]

...don't. You're not listening. To you, there is a Constitution without the DoI.
The DoI came first as the cornerstone to what was to come. That makes no sense in your mind as though two people get married first and then declare their love for one another later. Or not at all. You gotta declare an intention before you do anything else.

I understand; there is no way you will see that. I got it.

There is a Constitution without a Declaration of Independence.

Let's remove this from the United States. Iraq. Does Iraq have a Declaration of Independence? No. Does it have a constitution? Yes. What does the constitution of Iraq do? It forms the government of Iraq.

The Declaration of Independence did not and does not form the United States. It expresses the intention of the colonies to split from Britain. The Constitution forms the United States government. With the Declaration of Independence, the states declared autonomy from Britain. They could have remained as separate states with no unification, each as a separate country. They chose to band together, first under the Articles of Confederation and then under the Constitution. Until the Constitution was ratified, the states were still separate entities. It was not until the Constitution was ratified and each state gave up a portion of its sovereignty that the states became united as the United States.

 

[Larry Gude]

If you recall...

There is a Constitution without a Declaration of Independence.

Let's remove this from the United States. Iraq. Does Iraq have a Declaration of Independence? No. Does it have a constitution? Yes. What does the constitution of Iraq do? It forms the government of Iraq.

The Declaration of Independence did not and does not form the United States. It expresses the intention of the colonies to split from Britain. The Constitution forms the United States government. With the Declaration of Independence, the states declared autonomy from Britain. They could have remained as separate states with no unification, each as a separate country. They chose to band together, first under the Articles of Confederation and then under the Constitution. Until the Constitution was ratified, the states were still separate entities. It was not until the Constitution was ratified and each state gave up a portion of its sovereignty that the states became united as the United States.

...the whole and entire point of even referencing the DoI in the first place was because of it declaring, we, as a people, believe all of us are created equal and endowed with certain inalienable rights. I used that, if you recall, as an example of we, the people, disagreeing over words, as we do in parts of the Constitution.

So, whether or not we meant what the DoI says was settled in a war amongst ourselves over that very point, what the DoI says. And, if you recall, one set of beliefs, in the Supreme Court declaring that the Constitution said Dredd Scott wasn't even a person let alone one of we, the people, was right in the middle of the whole argument. Many people disagreed with him based on what the DoI said.

Now, you don't have to agree with that. Maybe it's just an opinion. Maybe there was no American Civil War. Maybe there was no slavery. And I'm quite sure you figure the Civil War, if there was one, was unjust to free slaves, if there were any, based on what the DoI said because that would mean the Constitution was wrong and the DoI was right and that can't be if the Constitution is preeminent.

So, not only does the DoI stand over the US Constitution as our preeminent founding document as a matter of common sense, which came first and set the stage for the other, but we also fought a war to see which one rules us the most. And the DoI, the cornerstone upon which our Constitution stands, is the preeminent US of A founding document.

So, we can go back to arguing the whether the founders would agree you can have a space station that can kill planets based solely on what the 2a says about keeping and bearing but the argument remains; We do have legitimate arguments over words and we refer back to the words, intent and spirit of our founding, preeminent document; The Declaration of Independence.

Now, if you want to go rolling off to Iraq, that's fine to. Guess why we are there?

Because we believe we are ALL created equal and endowed with certain inalienable rights among them life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Us, slaves, Iraqi's, all of us.


This is the part where you tell me I am right and made a better point than you did.

 

[PsyOps]

...don't. You're not listening. To you, there is a Constitution without the DoI.
The DoI came first as the cornerstone to what was to come. That makes no sense in your mind as though two people get married first and then declare their love for one another later. Or not at all. You gotta declare an intention before you do anything else.

I understand; there is no way you will see that. I got it.

I know this is not completely comparative but Iraq has a Constitution without a DoI. In fact I would bet that nearly every country, that has a Constitution, was not preceded with a DoI. For instance, Denmark drafted their first Constitution in the late 13th century. They currently have a "new" constitution was written after WWII following political reform, not due to any Declaration of Independence.

And plenty of people get married that have never declared their love for each other. Some do it strictly for tax purposes. Just for the sake of argument.

 

[Larry Gude]

Read post...

I know this is not completely comparative but Iraq has a Constitution without a DoI. In fact I would bet that nearly every country, that has a Constitution, was not preceded with a DoI. For instance, Denmark drafted their first Constitution in the late 13th century. They currently have a "new" constitution was written after WWII following political reform, not due to any Declaration of Independence.

And plenty of people get married that have never declared their love for each other. Some do it strictly for tax purposes. Just for the sake of argument.

...173 and tell me where we would be without our DoI. Tell me where Europe would be. Are you sure that you, of all people, don't directly see the DoI at work in Iraq and Afghanistan? It sure ain't our Constitution.

 

[2ndAmendment]

I know this is not completely comparative but Iraq has a Constitution without a DoI. In fact I would bet that nearly every country, that has a Constitution, was not preceded with a DoI. For instance, Denmark drafted their first Constitution in the late 13th century. They currently have a "new" constitution was written after WWII following political reform, not due to any Declaration of Independence.

And plenty of people get married that have never declared their love for each other. Some do it strictly for tax purposes. Just for the sake of argument.