Saving America...

[sleuth]

My home church had a guest speaker a few weeks ago, who gave a sermon titled "Saving America".

It had several themes, such as
1. the role of Christianity in American politics and government
2. Christianity vs. Secularism, Humanism, etc.
3. why America should stay rooted in Christianity
4. legislation of morality
5. religion in schools
6. why Christians value life

I just heard it last night, and I'm still mulling it over, but I thought I'd share it with all of you for discussion. It's about 15 minutes long or so.

MP3: http://www.clcchurch.com/sermonlog.asp?SermonID=140&Format=MP3
WMA: http://www.clcchurch.com/sermonlog.asp?SermonID=140&Format=WMA

Directions for play
1. RIGHT click on the link above for the format of the sermon you would like to download
2. Choose "Save as" from the list.
3. Save the file to a location on your hard drive where you can find it (for example "c:\My Documents\sermons"
4. The file will take some time to download depending on the speed of your connection.
5. When the file has finished find it on your hard drive with Windows Explorer
6. Double click on the file and it should automatically play.

 

[sleuth]

My home church had a guest speaker a few weeks ago, who gave a sermon titled "Saving America".

It had several themes, such as
1. the role of Christianity in American politics and government
2. Christianity vs. Secularism, Humanism, etc.
3. why America should stay rooted in Christianity
4. legislation of morality
5. religion in schools
6. why Christians value life

I just heard it last night, and I'm still mulling it over, but I thought I'd share it with all of you for discussion. It's about 15 minutes long or so.

MP3: http://www.clcchurch.com/sermonlog.asp?SermonID=140&Format=MP3
WMA: http://www.clcchurch.com/sermonlog.asp?SermonID=140&Format=WMA

Directions for play
1. RIGHT click on the link above for the format of the sermon you would like to download
2. Choose "Save as" from the list.
3. Save the file to a location on your hard drive where you can find it (for example "c:\My Documents\sermons"
4. The file will take some time to download depending on the speed of your connection.
5. When the file has finished find it on your hard drive with Windows Explorer
6. Double click on the file and it should automatically play.

Bump!

C'mon.. Nothing?

 

[DoWhat]

You lead a boring life, don't ya?

 

[sleuth]

You lead a boring life, don't ya?

 

[SamSpade]

Bump!

C'mon.. Nothing?

I guess I have a knee-jerk revulsion of religion in politics - OR politics in religion. The concept of keeping America "Christian" is, simply, revolting to me. Christians aren't supposed to be of this world, and I don't think a government entity CAN be "Christian" except on a very hypocritical level.

 

[sleuth]

I guess I have a knee-jerk revulsion of religion in politics - OR politics in religion. The concept of keeping America "Christian" is, simply, revolting to me. Christians aren't supposed to be of this world, and I don't think a government entity CAN be "Christian" except on a very hypocritical level.

I didn't really see anything *wrong* with what he's saying (except I disagree with his Schiavo comment). I mean, if Christians go to the polls and vote for Christian leaders who would in turn be influenced by their faith to vote along Christian values, I see nothing wrong with that.

I've always believed that there is no freedom "from" religion.

What bothers me is the legislation of morality issue. Because of our freedom of religion, I am uncomfortable with me legislating my beliefs on someone else, especially in cases where no one's rights are being violated (in the case of abortion, for example, I believe the right of the baby is violated, and therefore, should be illegal).

As I said.. I'm still mulling it over. I'm curious what others' reactions are though.

 

[vraiblonde]

Posting my thoughts as I listen to the audio

And, yes, I'm actually listening to the whole 43 minutes because Sleuth asked me to.

Fixed point of reference - He talks about how non-Christians cannot legitimately say they try to to good things and be morally upright because, as non-Christians, they do not have a point of reference to know what is good and bad, moral and immoral. Only God can tell you what is right and wrong. (Then he goes on to tell you what is right - belief in God and Jesus - and what is wrong - not believing)

Defining God - then he goes on to talk about how there is only one God - "I am that I am" - and that any human interpretation of God is wrong because only God can define Himself. (Then he goes on to define God)

Cosmic Accident - He talks about how biology and science relegate humans to mere "cosmic accidents" - "goo to zoo to you" is how he put it after he got his teleprompter under control. Then he says that's why people commit suicide and such, because they have a low sense of self-worth as an "accident". He says what causes self-worth is believing that you were uniquely created by a supreme being and have a purpose in the world. And you will feel you have value and worth if you remember that God cared about you so much that he came down to earth and died a miserable death just to be with you (and, presumably, everyone else in the world) through eternity.

I'm about halfway through and I'll have to listen to the rest of it later. So far I'm not particularly impressed with this guy. He has the same old "I'm right, you're wrong" mentality that turns people off to religion.

 

[sleuth]

Defining God - then he goes on to talk about how there is only one God - "I am that I am" - and that any human interpretation of God is wrong because only God can define Himself. (Then he goes on to define God)

I thought he was saying what the Bible defines God as... and presumably if the Bible is God's inspired work, then it is God defining himself. Same thing with the fixed point of reference.

As for the Cosmic Accident... yeah... that's pretty open for debate. Personally I'm pretty sure that my self-esteem is my own creation, and isn't dependent upon whether others deem me as worth something.

 

[vraiblonde]

I thought he was saying what the Bible defines God as... and presumably if the Bible is God's inspired work, then it is God defining himself.

Maybe that's what he meant but I didn't catch that part. Will listen to it again.

 

[BuddyLee]

I thought he was saying what the Bible defines God as... and presumably if the Bible is God's inspired work, then it is God defining himself.

Didn't man write it down, interpret it, ect...hence man defining God.

 

[Midnightrider]

What bothers me is the legislation of morality issue. Because of our freedom of religion, I am uncomfortable with me legislating my beliefs on someone else, especially in cases where no one's rights are being violated (in the case of abortion, for example, I believe the right of the baby is violated, and therefore, should be illegal).

and thats exactly why we shouldn't let the lines cross, i mean we don't need people who feel that their view is the only valid one, making life altering changes for us. I personally wouldn't want one of my potential children to be aborted, but that doesn't mean that i think my values should be applied to all others.
Too many "christains" feel that their morals are so "right" that everyone should be forced to follow them for their own good.

 

[2ndAmendment]

Didn't man write it down, interpret it, ect...hence man defining God.

Men inspired by the Holy Spirit, hence, if you are a believer, the Bible is the inspired word of God, therefore He defines Himself as much as He chooses to reveal about Himself.

 

[sleuth]

Didn't man write it down, interpret it, ect...hence man defining God.

That depends on whether you believe that the Bible was written by a bunch of guys who were inspired by God that they wrote a bunch of their thoughts down, or whether you believe that God was guiding the pen.

 

[Tonio]

What bothers me is the legislation of morality issue. Because of our freedom of religion, I am uncomfortable with me legislating my beliefs on someone else, especially in cases where no one's rights are being violated...

I agree. That's why I believe in the government being neutral on religious matters.

Cosmic Accident - He talks about how biology and science relegate humans to mere "cosmic accidents" ...Then he says that's why people commit suicide and such, because they have a low sense of self-worth as an "accident". He says what causes self-worth is believing that you were uniquely created by a supreme being and have a purpose in the world.

I completely disagree with him about science and biology. Science has never been about proving or disproving the existence of deity. As I see it, science, like government, is (or should be) neutral on religious matters. True, Carl Sagan was often accused of promoting athiesm, but I don't remember him claiming to speak for anyone but himself.

And if he's going to talk about self-worth, why wouldn't the concept of Original Sin lead to low self-worth? I see that concept as teaching that humans are inherently evil and worthless, like humans were God's mistake.

 

[2ndAmendment]

And if he's going to talk about self-worth, why wouldn't the concept of Original Sin lead to low self-worth? I see that concept as teaching that humans are inherently evil and worthless, like humans were God's mistake.

It could be seen that way, or it could be seen that God's loves us so much that He provided the way of salvation. Original sin was the work of satan, not God.

 

[BuddyLee]

Men inspired by the Holy Spirit, hence, if you are a believer, the Bible is the inspired word of God, therefore He defines Himself as much as He chooses to reveal about Himself.

I've heard of many men inspired by 'God' or some other devine being, David Koresh and those he influenced come to mind. What about his Book of Revelation? How can one necessarily say him and his followers were nuts and disregard that piece and yet accept the Bible as truth? Can we necessarily say the men that were inspired by a Holy Spirit who wrote the Bible were the same as Koresh and his followers at the time, I think it is a possibility.

 

[2ndAmendment]

I've heard of many men inspired by 'God' or some other devine being, David Koresh and those he influenced come to mind. What about his Book of Revelation? How can one necessarily say him and his followers were nuts and disregard that piece and yet accept the Bible as truth? Can we necessarily say the men that were inspired by a Holy Spirit who wrote the Bible were the same as Koresh and his followers at the time, I think it is a possibility.

I'll leave you to your belief. No one can convince anyone. I have ceased to try. It is the job of the Holy Spirit and not mine anyway.

 

[Midnightrider]

I'll leave you to your belief. No one can convince anyone. I have ceased to try. It is the job of the Holy Spirit and not mine anyway.

OK, if its the job of the Holy spirit, then those that feel the spirit guiding them ARE being insipred by god, right? So if the wacko's at wako felt insipred by god then their book is valid?

 

[2ndAmendment]

OK, if its the job of the Holy spirit, then those that feel the spirit guiding them ARE being insipred by god, right? So if the wacko's at wako felt insipred by god then their book is valid?

I disagree with you, but will leave you to find your own way. Unless you believe in the Truth and seek it, you will not find it and no one can make you believe it.

Koresh's teachings were in conflict with the Bible, not in agreement with it.

 

[BuddyLee]

OK, if its the job of the Holy spirit, then those that feel the spirit guiding them ARE being insipred by god, right? So if the wacko's at wako felt insipred by god then their book is valid?

1) Could be the Waco wacko's really were wacko's and The Bible is the only truth.

2) Could be the Waco wacko's were right and The Bible was wrong.

3) Could be the Waco wacko's were right and yet all others supposedly influenced by God are right as well. Perhaps, God's word of today as opposed to his word of yesterday, The Bible.

4) More probable, some supposedly influenced by God are right and some are wacko's. It is up to you to decide and define the who, what, when, where, why, and how of God.

If there is a God and he influences others as he supposedly did when the Bible was being written, then wouldn't he still influence others after the writings of the Bible? ex: Joan of arc, Martin Luther, Koresh, ect...