Saving America...
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He certainly influences others. But, as Jesus saidBuddyLee said:
God will not contradict His own law or influence someone to write something that is in conflict with it.
I haven't gotten to the part of the speech where he's talking about legislating Christian values but I don't really have a problem with that, depending on what the values are.
If he means that you're not supposed to kill or injure others by your actions or spew porn and obscenities all over the place, then I'm for it. If he means that you have to attend a specific church and "believe" a certain way, then that's a little more 1984 than I'm comfortable with.
It is my observation that fundie Christians aren't really all that different than Islamic fundies, except Christians don't kill people. Unless you're an abortion doctor. Both think that their way is the ONLY way and that everyone else is a sinner who is going to burn in hell. No middle ground, no conversation about it, no room for disagreement - just my way or the highway.
If he means that you're not supposed to kill or injure others by your actions or spew porn and obscenities all over the place, then I'm for it. If he means that you have to attend a specific church and "believe" a certain way, then that's a little more 1984 than I'm comfortable with.
It is my observation that fundie Christians aren't really all that different than Islamic fundies, except Christians don't kill people. Unless you're an abortion doctor. Both think that their way is the ONLY way and that everyone else is a sinner who is going to burn in hell. No middle ground, no conversation about it, no room for disagreement - just my way or the highway.
See post #22.BuddyLee said:
K
Kain99
Guest
The heavens are not closed.... I had a personal miricale today. Should have been shot dead but wasn't. Is the explanation that the crack head liked me? or...... God intervened?Chain729 said:
The heavens are NOT closed! Ask the Boyscouts.
Love Kain
vraiblonde said:
I agree with the first part of that sentence, but I disagree with the second part. Some fundamentalist Christians, at least they profess to be, do indeed kill people. For instance, the KKK was a Christian terrorist organization. The Oklahoma City Bombing was done by Tim McVeigh, who was a member of a radical Christian sect who sought to invoke a race war in America. Abortion clinics are bombed. Death threats are made to judges who rule that the government shouldn't get involved in the private matters of feeding tubes. If you look at history it's damn bad too...the Crusades, battles between Orthodox Catholics and Roman Catholics soon after the Chasm, the Spanish Inquisition.
The difference is in *scale*. There are Tim McVeigh's here, and there, and we lock them up when we can. The KKK, while free to exist, is curtailed when it comes to actual crimes. I'm sure that every Christian religion has some dark nutcase or group of them which are a fraction of the main group, who have distorted the teachings to further their beliefs.rraley said:
Contrast this with Wahabist schools that are funded by the Saudi government; national Arabic newspapers declaring the deaths of all Jews, which it declares as dogs; national Arab leaders calling for washing Israel knee-deep in blood; leaders of nations openly supporting the efforts of terrorists; and so on.
It's not that the extremists do not *exist* in fundamentalist Christian groups; like I said, it's the *scale*. You don't have the Pope or the Archbishop of Canterbury calling for jihad against all Muslims or declaring fatwas against Muslim writers; you don't have "Christian" governments outlawing the practice of Islam, destroying Islamic places of worship and rewarding those who kill Muslims.
(I'm skeptical about historic Christianity and how it has been maligned; it's all too easy to ascribe religious zealotry as the cause for what may otherwise been the real cause of most wars - greed and lust for power. The difference this time is, while Christian leaders a millenia ago may have cashed in on the ignorance of zealous followers, Islamic leaders appear to *believe* their own pronouncements).
I agree with what you say SamSpade, but the thing is that in history (the worst of which was about 500 years ago) Christianity was greatly distorted to allow for the killing of people similar to the distortion of Islam by jihadists today and at a comparable scale. Today, radical fundamentalist Christians do not engage in a similar scale of violence as jihadists, but at one point in history they indeed did. I just wanted to rebut the misguided point that some fundamentalist Christians do not kill.
While I feel that it is impossible not to mix politics and religion I do not think that I agree with it most times. Our leaders are supposed to be representing all of us, and not just the people that agree with them. I still do not understand how one can profess to be against killing, then support war; eat a cow while at the same time being against abortion; boycott France while expecting that everyone not hate America...and so on. I guess this will not go well here, but so be it, there are people that do not agree with the church's way of dealing with certain matters, and instead of trying to control every little policy, why don't politicians try and do some real good for the country or the world???
Chain729
CageKicker Extraordinaire
Kain99 said:
You missed the point. The path to heaven is more or less a fix, to the problem. A problem that could have been foreseen and avoided by an omniscient being. If God had not intended for people to sin, they wouldn't have. Its just as much his fault as it is with Satan, if you choose to blame Satan.
Basically, what 2A and the others putting all blame on Satan for sin are saying is that God chose to not prevent it. God chose to allow people to shame themselves, be born into sin, and to consequently rot in hell for it.
That's my point, in a nutshell. Now, whether or not I agree with myself is another story...
Your point of view leaves out that God created man with free will. He could have created us to be robots of flesh just to do exactly what He wanted, but we would be incapable of giving what God wants from us, our love and companionship. He created us to live forever and walk with Him; check the account of creation.Chain729 said:
Love and companionship of something that is incapable of doing otherwise is meaningless. It is when someone who has the choice to love or hate or obey or not chooses to love and obey that it has meaning.
Chain729
CageKicker Extraordinaire
2ndAmendment said:
Yep. Knowing full well that mankind would choose to taint themselves and burn in hell. He gave us all the tools we needed to do this: Free will, a temptation, and he even threw in a temptor as a bonus.
2ndAmendment said:
So, how does this not make it his fault? I must be missing something.
I must also be completely nuts, since that by your account, he chose to allow some of us to burn in hell so that he could enjoy the company of the others. Sounds a lot like selfishness to me and makes me wonder if God is perfrect afterall.
People that do not believe in God or want to do things their own way will always find a reason to not believe or blame God. I leave you to your own devices.
Chain729
CageKicker Extraordinaire
2ndAmendment said:
Once again with the closed mind. I take it you're the one that cared enough about a post you didn't understand to leave karma? Did you even read the following? Or read that I've stated that I'm Jewish several times?
Chain729 said:
I didn't say believed myself. I merely played Devil's advocate. Sometimes, I take a position I don't believe in, just to see things from another side and see if the argument I do believe in holds up. I need not believe in the position to argue it, or argue it well.
This is why I usually don't debate certain topics, let alone debate with the public. Too many people don't read, don't even try to understand and take an emotional, irrational stance. In this case, it was far too tempting.
And you're usually one of the better ones when it comes to these things
I didn't leave you any karma.Chain729 said:
So you are Jewish. :shrug: One of my close friends is Jewish. He has a wife who is a Baptist. She and I both witness to him. I pray that he comes around. Tradition is hard to overcome. The Jews are God's chosen people. All of history is measured in what is happening to the Jews. Bible prophesy, Old and New Testament, pertains to the Jews and then to the rest of the world. If the Jews had not rejected Jesus, the Messiah, then all of us would have been out in the cold, because He would not have been crucified.
I would never want to be an advocate of the devil.
I have also decided it is foolish of me to debate with those who are obviously arguing for arguments sake. Nothing will be changed, nothing accomplished.
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No need to waste the time/effort, IMHO.
I continue to get red for my posts. It is wonderful to have so much free rent.