Scientists Harvest Stem Cells Without Destroying Embryo

ylexot

Super Genius
vraiblonde said:
Indeedy. If low-rent losers want to exterminate their spawn, who am I to stand in their way? Their kids would just grow up to be predators and welfare recipients anyway. I consider abortion a crime prevention method. :yay:
Have you read Freakonomics? That's one of the conclusions the author presents...abortion is the reason for the recent drop in crime rate.
 

Toxick

Splat
MMDad said:
Nope, I get your point, but I think Vrai is right.

No - I don't think you did.

In this case I'm not arguing for or against abortion one way or the other. For the purposes of this discussion, I'm accepting abortion - for any reason whatsoever - as a given.


But here's what I'm trying to get at: Vrai claims that the devaluation of human life is a problem, while endorsing actions that admittedly devalue it even further.

Vrai states thusly:

We already, as a society, have such low regard for our children and human life in general - abortion, child abuse, pedophilia. Why perpetuate it?


And then makes this claim:
If low-rent losers want to exterminate their spawn, who am I to stand in their way? Their kids would just grow up to be predators and welfare recipients anyway. I consider abortion a crime prevention method.


Those two quotes are inherently contradictory (hypocritical even). But what really bakes my noodle is this:
because we have fostered a low regard for children and human life in this country and we do not value personal responsibility anymore (in fact, we actively discourage it), abortion is the only solution to the problem.


Regurgitating my fire analogy (with modifications for benefit of literalists) - it's like saying that you can help a man whos burning alive by flicking cigarettes at him.
 

vraiblonde

Board Mommy
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Toxick said:
it's like saying that you can help a man whos burning alive by flicking cigarettes at him.
Actually, it's more like saying the guy's burning alive anyway, might as well toast marshmallows.
 

Toxick

Splat
vraiblonde said:
Actually, it's more like saying the guy's burning alive anyway, might as well toast marshmallows.


Heh - except that toating marshmallows doesn't actively add to the problem - it just adds insult to injury...



which I thought you were arguing against, also :razz:
 

vraiblonde

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Toxick said:
Heh - except that toating marshmallows doesn't actively add to the problem - it just adds insult to injury...



which I thought you were arguing against, also :razz:
:razz: yourself

At what point do we say enough is enough?

Currently my tax dollars do not go toward abortions. I like that. I don't really want my tax dollars to go toward embryonic experimentation. It's a little more Mengele than I want my government to sanction and fund and it sends the wrong social message.

While I can say, screw it, kill all the worthless bastards, George Bush probably better stick with "no child left behind".

So we allow embryonic experimentation. Then it won't be long before they're experimenting on actual fetuses. Then comes test-tube babies who are bred specifically for experimental purposes. Then we might actually give women to option to sell their newborn infant to researchers - heck, why not make some money, right?

And don't say that will never happen. If you'd told my grandmother 40 years ago that some day scientists would be dissecting aborted infants and fertility "overages", she'd have thought you were crazy.
 

hvp05

Methodically disorganized
vraiblonde said:
Democrats won't go for that because that's the majority of their voting bloc.
Dems should not worry... for in the not-too-distant future the illegals will usurp control of the minority voter key. They can let Republicans bicker about abortion as they slip the "open border" policy under the radar.
 

Toxick

Splat
vraiblonde said:
At what point do we say enough is enough?

Don't look at me - I'm pro-life. I dont' think we should kill any babies.


vraiblonde said:
So we allow embryonic experimentation. Then it won't be long before they're experimenting on actual fetuses.


IMO: Embryos are not human beings, and foeti are.

If you want a demarcation line where to say enough is enough: I think that's where it should be drawn.


However: If you believe that Embryos are, in fact, human beings, then I have to respect your aversion to embryonic experimentation. I don't think we should dessicrate dead human beings either.

Our only difference in that regard is our definition of 'human being'.
 

vraiblonde

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Toxick said:
If you want a demarcation line where to say enough is enough: I think that's where it should be drawn.
Fair enough. When does an embryo become a fetus?
 

Somdmommy

:Jeepin' in NC:
Toxick said:
Don't look at me - I'm pro-life. I dont' think we should kill any babies.
IMO: Embryos are not human beings, and foeti are.

If you want a demarcation line where to say enough is enough: I think that's where it should be drawn.
However: If you believe that Embryos are, in fact, human beings, then I have to respect your aversion to embryonic experimentation. I don't think we should dessicrate dead human beings either.

Our only difference in that regard is our definition of 'human being'.

I'm with Vrai, Pro-Choice. However most of the reason I am Pro-Choice is so women that have been raped ( homeless drug addict, father, brother, so on and so on) have the choice.

vraiblonde said:
Indeedy. If low-rent losers want to exterminate their spawn, who am I to stand in their way? Their kids would just grow up to be predators and welfare recipients anyway. I consider abortion a crime prevention method. :yay:

It does hurt me to say this, but her comment was 100% correct. Children are being born into the worst environments. I would rather have women getting abortions than reading about "more" children being killed, raped, locked in trunks and storage units.

The world is not fair.
And the Fight Fire With Fire Comments Are Correct As Well.
 

Pete

Repete
hvp05 said:
Then we should be going into crime and drug-ridden neighborhoods and proactively giving them abortions or sterilizing them, instead of passively waiting for them to take their own action. Or am over-extending your analogy?
Would be nice but the ACLU wouldn't like it.
 

Toxick

Splat
vraiblonde said:
Fair enough. When does an embryo become a fetus?


You're not going to like my definition - because I pulled it from the bible, which holds that blood = life. Therefore I believe that human life starts when the first blood-cell is formed... Which is around 18-20 days after conception.
 

Toxick

Splat
Somdmommy said:
I'm with Vrai, Pro-Choice. However most of the reason I am Pro-Choice is so women that have been raped ( homeless drug addict, father, brother, so on and so on) have the choice.


IMO: That's why they have a morning-after pill.


Somdmommy said:
It does hurt me to say this, but her comment was 100% correct. Children are being born into the worst environments. I would rather have women getting abortions than reading about "more" children being killed, raped, locked in trunks and storage units.

Well - I might be nuts, but I think that murder is worse than abuse.
 

Midnightrider

Well-Known Member
vraiblonde said:
Let's break that down:

You do not like me insulting something that you are in favor of killing.

Correct?
no, i'm ambivalent on the embryotic research, and mostly against abortion, but i wouldn't ever want to force a womans hand either way.

My 'enlightened' comment was about your enthusiastic endorsement of abortion for "low-rent losers". It's a very prejudice position to take, that lives of those in the lower class are less valuable than yours. Why stop at aborting their children, why not gas 'em when they come to pick up there checks?
 

Kerad

New Member
This is an excellent discovery...what should be the common ground between the people for/against federal funding for stem cell research.

Of course, this is the United States...so we all know this will not be the case. Those who are already dead set against funding will simply change the wording of their oppostion. We're already seeing this subtle back-tracking in the early comments from the Bush administration.

Before this discovery, Bush opposed it because it destroyed human embyos during the process. (The fact that the embryos would be destroyed anyways is an inconvenience that the Bushies prefer to ignore.)

Now there is a way to get what the scientists need without the destruction of the embryos. Instead of hailing this new discovery...the initial response from White House Spokeswoman Emily Lawrimore is this:

Any use of human embryos for research purposes raises serious ethical questions. This technique does not resolve those concerns.” Yep...there it is...back-tracking to come up with a new reason to oppose the funding. Now it no longer is the "destruction" of these embyos...it's any "use" of them. It's so predictable it's hardly even worth mentioning.

I guess it would be easier for all of us if opponents of federally funded research would just come out and say it: "When embryos get discarded, we want them to be 100% intact."
 

Somdmommy

:Jeepin' in NC:
A major effort at redefining the word "person" is taking place today. Along with a linguistic change, if "pro-life" efforts are successful, will come important sociological, psychological and theological change. Biological and other scientific factors are being bent to accommodate the religious argument that a human being exists at conception, or when sperm meets egg.
The conceptus - weighing a very small fraction of an ounce -- obviously is not an Independent or autonomous human being, and certainly not a person, because it has no way to exist except in the body of another human being that feeds and protects it.

It is also obvious that no two persons can exist in one body with equal rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. In effect the Vatican and its dependent right-to-life movement can only promote the rights of an embryo or fetus by treating the woman who carries it as an incubator who may not control her own body, take medication or other substances that may harm the fetus, or make other choices that would be injurious to it.

A human being and certainly a person is not determined solely by its biology at conception, when it has no sex, no brain, no eyes, ears or other senses. A "person" is determined only at birth, when it is welcomed into the human community as a living reality.


Actually, the Vatican position is self-contradictory. Consider in vitro fertilization, a process whereby male sperm fertilizes a female egg in a test tube or dish. Can it be argued that such a fertilized egg has all the rights of a living person? Does it have the right to be implanted in a woman's uterus, without which there could be no expectation of childbirth? In vitro fertilization is forbidden by the Vatican's "Instruction on Respect for Human Life in its Origin and on the Dignity of Procreation."

Fr. Donald McCarthy of the Pope John Paul XXII Medical, Moral and Educational Center in St Louis, has called for the endowment of civil rights to every fertilized egg, includIng the right not to be created at all except as a consequence of "personal, self-giving and conjugal love." Here two fictional legalisms conflict: A human being exists at conception, but that human being has a right not to be implanted. Who makes that decision? Certainly not the fertilized egg!
In 1988 when the Webster case1 was being argued before the Supreme Court, 167 distinguished scientists and physicians, including 11 Nobel Laureates, told the Supreme Court in a friend-of-the-court brief, "There is no scientific consensus that a human life begins at conception ..." They referred to the argument made by others to the Court that "as surely as the Earth moves around the sun, it is an undisputed biological fact that a human life begins at conception." In reply, the scientists said, "Such arguments are attempts to distort the teachings of science to fit preconceived conclusions based upon values that science alone does not and cannot dictate."2

The National Academy of Sciences was equally emphatic. They declared that Senate Bill 158 cannot stand up to the scrutiny of science. One section of the bill reads, "The Congress finds the present day scientific evidence Indicates a significant likelihood that actual human life exists from conception." The scientists said, '"his statement purports to derive its conclusions from science, but It deals with a question to which science can provide no answer. The proposal in S.158 that the term "person" shall include "all human life" has no basis within our scientific understanding."


Toxick said:
Well - I might be nuts, but I think that murder is worse than abuse.

You would see a child born into a home where it could be beat up every day, not fed, and or raped, than have abortions.

You are nuts....

~JMO~
 

Toxick

Splat
Kerad said:
I guess it would be easier for all of us if opponents of federally funded research would just come out and say it: "When embryos get discarded, we want them to be 100% intact."


Well, that's the same logic that applies to death-row's suicide watch. It would be simply awful if a convict got to kill himself 24 hours before the state was supposed to.



And I think it should be pointed out that there are some opponents of "federally funded research" who's opposition is based solely on the "federally funded" part which has nothing to do with the embryos or their right to life or lack thereof.

There are some people out there whose teeth get set on edge every time the words "federally funded" are uttered.
 

vraiblonde

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Toxick said:
You're not going to like my definition - because I pulled it from the bible, which holds that blood = life. Therefore I believe that human life starts when the first blood-cell is formed... Which is around 18-20 days after conception.
I could care less about the Bible. I believe life starts at conception, as in the second the sperm fertilizes the egg.

Technically, an embryo turns into a fetus at around 8 weeks (I looked that up on Wiki). So how about a two month "embryo"? That would be legal to dissect, under the "embryonic" definition.
 

vraiblonde

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Midnightrider said:
It's a very prejudice position to take, that lives of those in the lower class are less valuable than yours.
My Mom didn't abort me. Therefore my life is more valuable than the aborted spawn of the unwashed. Obviously.
 
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