serious thread

[KizerSoSay]

Ok, you all want a serious topic? Here is a question. As you know I am not a horsey lovin' person, but I have friends that are. Someone I know had an issue over the weekend with their trainer. (it is NOT a trainer from around here, before people start swelling up thinking I am speaking of anybody on here!) This person's trainer got on their horse and lost their temper, snatching hard into the corners of the animal's mouth and giving hard leg and whip. The mouth ended up being cut and the horses neck was very stiff and sore the next morning. What are your thoughts on this? Would you all still use this person? The horse is green.

 

[Katie]

This person's trainer got on their horse and lost their temper, snatching hard into the corners of the animal's mouth and giving hard leg and whip. The mouth ended up being cut and the horses neck was very stiff and sore the next morning. What are your thoughts on this? Would you all still use this person? The horse is green.

I would find a new trainer. That poor horse is green and doesn't know any better. GRRRR

 

[Pasofever]

I had a catch rider/trainer hit Roger in the face with a rein for pulling at her clothes befor her ride...(he only has one eye anyway) I pulled him from her and she never rode him again..for hitting him in the face with a leather rein..

Now I have seen him be lazy and had a trainer spur him dig him in the ground and be rough with him..he needed it..I let it go...

But anyone who just slaps a one eyed horse in the face is gone..he only has one left put that out I have NOTHING...

I think horses need to be treated rough sometimes..that seems excessive thouh..

I have well wont go there...good luck to your friend.

 

[mingiz]

First I would of snatched his/her ass off my horse then, I would of done the same thing to the trainer.. Then fired them. No sense in that crap....

 

[Tazgirl]

I have a horse with a tongue so scarred because of mistreatment that the vet has a hard time getting hold of it to float his teeth. I won't even use a bit with him now for fear of causing him any more pain then what he has already gone through. DO NOT use this person again, no one should treat a horse badly to the point of cutting them.

 

[Robin]

Sounds like the horse was tattleing on the rider, Horse wasn't ready to keep moving forward. RUSHED situation? unfavorable conditions. Green Horse needs to work forward on baby steps so he/she is not over whelmed too much too soon. Not a happy mount..The horse will elevate refusals into a dangerous situation and perhaps someone will get hurt. slow training with good progress makes a good safe mount that enjoys their job. Hard decision when horses are boarded using resident trainers. Not that this is your friends situation. Tell your friend not to rush, if she/he is comfortable with riding the horse not knowing how long she has had the mount, I would go real slow until the horse is ready to move on to another rider/like a trainer. Or if she has a dollar tree in the back yard send the horse to a reputable trainer. Someone she knows is good not just convenient. Good luck to your friend Kizer. That is just my 2 cents with the information you provided.

 

[Phyxius]

I'd fire them too. I'm sure everyone here has been less than nice to a horse at some point and time. Just like childern the occasional scolding or smack is needed, but to take any horse green or not and kick and pull until it is bleeding is WAY beyond necessary.

When observing horses in a herd enviroment you'll see them bite or kick at each other to assert authority or to show displeasure, so physical reminders are not out of place in the horse world, but the other horse's generally know what's going on. Kicking (go forward) and pulling (stop) send conflicting messages. So, not only was the horse injured he/she was confused and will now probably be more prone to getting "nervous" and less confident. Some horses are more sensitive than others and will take this physical "abuse" to heart and will respond to the negative enforcements for years to come. It could be something as simple as a "flashback" when the owner is riding in a show and the horse is already nervous. Maybe the rider asks for more connection and uses both leg and rein. The horse remembers the unpleasant incident and tenses up. That one moment could ruin an entire class.

I've seen horses that were trained by rather dubious methods. These horse physically react when the trainer is anywhere near them. If they even hear his voice they tense and their way of going is choppier, more abrupt, and less fluid. While one incident will probably not scare this horse for life, why put him in a situation where this is something that could become common place?

 

[appendixqh]

Ok, you all want a serious topic? Here is a question. As you know I am not a horsey lovin' person, but I have friends that are. Someone I know had an issue over the weekend with their trainer. (it is NOT a trainer from around here, before people start swelling up thinking I am speaking of anybody on here!) This person's trainer got on their horse and lost their temper, snatching hard into the corners of the animal's mouth and giving hard leg and whip. The mouth ended up being cut and the horses neck was very stiff and sore the next morning. What are your thoughts on this? Would you all still use this person? The horse is green.

I'd say that before everyone starts hammering the trainer because, yes, this sounds excessive, the one ...the most important thing we don't know is what the horse did. There are one or two things that I consider to justify just about any a$$ whoopin you can feasibly administer...like - did the horse rear and run, creating a dangerous situation? If so, that would possibly justify a pretty harsh response. But short of a very dangerous situation as noted above, then no...the treatment is not justified and I would find someone else. So, what did this horse do?

 

[DQ2B]

Would you all still use this person? QUOTE]

No, and I would have stopped the insult before it ever got as far as you mention.

 

[Pasofever]

First I would of snatched his/her ass off my horse then, I would of done the same thing to the trainer.. Then fired them. No sense in that crap....

I did not see you snatch my ass off of Misty when I tore her ass up..

 

[DQ2B]

I'd say that before everyone starts hammering the trainer because, yes, this sounds excessive, the one ...the most important thing we don't know is what the horse did. There are one or two things that I consider to justify just about any a$$ whoopin you can feasibly administer...like - did the horse rear and run, creating a dangerous situation? If so, that would possibly justify a pretty harsh response. But short of a very dangerous situation as noted above, then no...the treatment is not justified and I would find someone else. So, what did this horse do?

I disagree. A horse that is rearing, bucking or bolting is doing so for a reason, whether that reason is because of disobedience, lack of training, or pain, the answer is not an "a$$ whoopin". An NO, correction should cause a horse to bleed or have open cuts as a result.

 

[appendixqh]

I disagree. A horse that is rearing, bucking or bolting is doing so for a reason, whether that reason is because of disobedience, lack of training, or pain, the answer is not an "a$$ whoopin". An NO, correction should cause a horse to bleed or have open cuts as a result.

I agree that it is not a first choice, and never something you should set out to do, BUT the unfortunate part is that there are a lot of people who can raise these horses as their "little babies" and create some spoiled horses. People then turn these brat / horses over to trainers, and expect them to overcome this reinforced attitude without confrontation. Sometimes the brats throw tantrums (I've seen so MEGA tantrums) because they can't get their way. When a tantrum or defiance turns dangerous, even the best trainers in the world will do whatever it takes to get their attention, sometimes they can un-intentionally get cut or scraped. So all I am saying, is before I can say fire the trainer (which is my first reaction), I want to know what the scenario is ... and in the absence of some extreme scenario I would fire them.

 

[mingiz]

Misty isn't a green horse and knows better. I would of done the same. Sometimes they need thier butts whipped but not abused ...You didn't abuse her in my eyes. And what you did worked didn't it. She was acting like a mule that day.....

 

[Phyxius]

There are one or two things that I consider to justify just about any a$$ whoopin you can feasibly administer...like - did the horse rear and run, creating a dangerous situation? If so, that would possibly justify a pretty harsh response.

I know you're just asking, to see if there is validation for the response of the trainer, but I see two problems with this scenario..

1) If a horse reared and ran off, kicking and whipping while yanking on the bit will result in more rearing most likely.

2) Kizer said that the trainer "lost their temper", it's never a good idea to lose your temper. When you stop being objective you're no longer training, you're abusing.


Also, if this horse was green it should be in a nice, easy bit...no twisted wire or bike chains, right? How hard does someone have to pull to split a horse's mouth open with the bit?

I have NEVER had to pull a horse that hard or whip them to the point of welts or bleeding.

Whenever working with a horse you want to use the least amount of pressure necessary. Horse's should be sensitive and responsive.

 

[KizerSoSay]

To answer my pm's and some of the posts (I had to call my friend to get all of the details)-
horse was NOT being 'bad', no rearing, no bucking etc, just green, didn't know how to respond perfectly or fast enough for trainer. This rider has had this trainer for several years, and never has seen this type of loss of temper before. Lots of snide remarks about horse from trainer also.
I think everyone is in agreement that it was wrong. My friend feels awkward about it, and felt intimidated about correcting such a well known person, but she is also a little angry, too.
Thanks for the replies.

 

[appendixqh]

1) If a horse reared and ran off, kicking and whipping while yanking on the bit will result in more rearing most likely.

I have always been taught for rearing to be stopped you have to do two things...regain forward momentum (do what it takes to get the animals moving forward, possibly kick or whip) and once progressing forward, bend them through the neck and back and go back to the basic circling (if horse is defiant or fighting the basic bit give, it may require the jerk of a rein) until the situation is diffused enough and back at a calm level.

2) Kizer said that the trainer "lost their temper", it's never a good idea to lose your temper. When you stop being objective you're no longer training, you're abusing.

I totally agree, you have to maintain "training" mode and keep your focus. The goal is to gain understanding by the horse, not fear. But, Kizer was relaying a story from someone else, so did that person just interpret the situation wrong because they don't like seeing what needed to take place, or was it in fact an abusive situation?

"Also, if this horse was green it should be in a nice, easy bit...no twisted wire or bike chains, right? How hard does someone have to pull to split a horse's mouth open with the bit?"

Totally agree...I only use snaffles for riding my youngsters, and have luckily avoided all likeness to the initially described scenario. Green horses have no business in any harsh bit, but we don't know what type of bit it is, and even a snaffle can cause a cut if it pinches the lip and bars of the mouth.

Unfortunately, I have put a welt on the a$$ of a horse...he had (from his huggy feelie owner) developed a habit that when he was told to go and he didn't want to, he just started backing up. The owner would get frustrated and get off him when ever he quit on her. After a some time of this she asked me to get on and get him going forward, and he didn't like it. Started throwing a tantrum, and backing really fast...it took a welt on his backside and a series of good over and unders with the reins to make him realize I was serious and enough of the BS.

"Whenever working with a horse you want to use the least amount of pressure necessary. Horse's should be sensitive and responsive."

I totally agree, if a fly can condition a response, we should be able to do the same with slight inputs.

 

[appendixqh]

To answer my pm's and some of the posts (I had to call my friend to get all of the details)-
horse was NOT being 'bad', no rearing, no bucking etc, just green, didn't know how to respond perfectly or fast enough for trainer. This rider has had this trainer for several years, and never has seen this type of loss of temper before. Lots of snide remarks about horse from trainer also.
I think everyone is in agreement that it was wrong. My friend feels awkward about it, and felt intimidated about correcting such a well known person, but she is also a little angry, too.
Thanks for the replies.

Then that is a total shame, and completely un-called for!...and yes...pull a Donald and say "You're Fired!"

 

[Katie]

I totally agree, if a fly can condition a response, we should be able to do the same with slight inputs.

Yeah, some horse I know you have to kick them HARD to get to them move. Ashton if I kicked him like I have had to kick some horses I wuold be flying across the field!

 

[saddlesore]

2) Kizer said that the trainer "lost their temper", it's never a good idea to lose your temper. When you stop being objective you're no longer training, you're abusing.
How hard does someone have to pull to split a horse's mouth open with the bit?

Was it John Lyons who said, The only emotion you should have around a horse is a sense of humor.

I came off my OTTB once and she ran back to the barn. (At least she went back home)! Along the way I guess the reins came over her head and she stepped on them, bc when I got back to the barn the reins were broken, and her mouth was cut. It was a snaffle bit, and she had a pretty hard mouth from being on the track for 6 years.

 

[FrmGrl]

Its funny. Today I had my lesson with my very green OTTB and she was being a total butt. I mean bad with a capital B!! My trainer got on her and for over an hour worked on her. Despite almost being thrown off, despite having her try and rear she never lost her cool or her temper. She just kept asking simple commands and using basic aids until at the end she was a normal horse again. Patience, that is what got that horse to behave! I have also had her in a full cheek snaffle since the day I have had her. I would never dream of using anything more severe on her. BTW does anyone know if calm and cool has an alternate effect on some horses?