SMECO Emails

[spr1975wshs]

^Plus, you need to clean the panels of dust, bird poop and other build up to help maintain peak efficiency.

 

[Bonehead]

A neighbor has a solar set up it doesn't make fiscal sense to me after talking to them about cost.

 

[GWguy]

A few of mine too. I could never get behind the 20 year payoff to obsolescence. Nevermind the damage to a new roof.

 

[Clem72]

A few of mine too. I could never get behind the 20 year payoff to obsolescence. Nevermind the damage to a new roof.

Damage to roof is a potential concern, 20 year payoff is not. Even in MD if you are buying (not leasing, not getting a crazy percentage loan), you should be looking at 5-8 years. Unless of course your house faces the wrong direction and theres a huge tree covering half your panels (literally half the installs I see in SOMD).

 

[gemma_rae]

I was born in a barn. I open all the doors and set the heat at 100 degrees. Washington Gas sends me thank you notes.

Then I call my Mom and tell her I'm heating the whole neighborhood!

 

[RodRugg]

When my grandma fired up her welder to add some perches to her Cat Castles, SMECO sent a email to my uncle and said to knock if off. Instead, my grandma got so mad she welded for 3 days straight without any sleep and welded every piece of metal together she could find. About six months later the refrigerator went bad and they had to replace it, the stove, the microwave, the canisters, and the breadbox. My grandma said the joke was on SMECO though because she replaced her gas stove with a electric one.

 

[SamSpade]

The last time I scrutinized one of those things, it became clear to me that "comparable" neighbors all had houses with a third of the floorspace my house has. So they may know how much electricity I use, but apparently they have no idea how big my house is.

 

[Chris0nllyn]

Does anyone ever get one saying your useage is lower than your neighbors? haha. Any one get the solar deal, if so what was the cost, been thinking about it. Friend says his bill is now very low, one time it was negative. So the bill is lower which is good but now there is a bill for the financed solar stuff. Wonder what the ROI would be after the panels are paid over so many years.

The last solar design I did was 76kW ($188,000) and payback was estimated to be around 23.4 years.

I will say that weather data modeling assumed about 5.9MWh in AC energy in February. Actual energy production was 4.58MWh in February.

 

[GWguy]

When my grandma fired up her welder to add some perches to her Cat Castles, SMECO sent a email to my uncle and said to knock if off. Instead, my grandma got so mad she welded for 3 days straight without any sleep and welded every piece of metal together she could find. About six months later the refrigerator went bad and they had to replace it, the stove, the microwave, the canisters, and the breadbox. My grandma said the joke was on SMECO though because she replaced her gas stove with a electric one.

Ya know the cartoon show, "Animaniacs" ? One of the writers is Paul Rugg. I'm convinced this is a family member of yours. Those cartoons actually make a lot more sense now....

 

[FED_UP]

I looked into it. They were going to put solar panels on my large garage roof (35x55ft). For the first year, yes, the monthly rates would be much lower. Then they would creep up. After five years, I would pretty much be paying the same as I did before, and it would be like that up until 20 years when the whole set-up was paid off. After that, then I would really start to see savings.... with 20 year-old equipment that was now all mine... to repair. Not to mention the now 20 year old roof that needs repair, which will be incredibly increased in cost due to the panels. Moore's law states that tech doubles in capacity every three years. So, would you replace your roof and then put the old stuff back on it? No, you would have to buy new solar equipment due to your stuff being ancient. You think they didn't plan on this????
Do the math. Don't look at it for the immediate future. Amortize it over 20 years. Then figure in repair costs. You aint saving a dime, and the solar company walked away with the 10K "Solar Grant" money. Do you know of any company that is in business for you? I don't. They are in business to make money.... Yours and the grant money. Leave it alone. Don't be a sucker.

Well explained, I don't want solar panels now. The next time they come to more door for an estimate, I will say the ROI sucks.

 

[Goldenhawk]

...unless you have cash to buy the system, and your roof faces the right direction, in which case it makes a LOT of sense. Friend of mine has year-round net-zero electric bills now, which is a far better ROI than any savings account or mutual fund.

Paying credit for stuff is often a bad idea.

 

[nutz]

...unless you have cash to buy the system, and your roof faces the right direction, in which case it makes a LOT of sense. Friend of mine has year-round net-zero electric bills now, which is a far better ROI than any savings account or mutual fund.

Paying credit for stuff is often a bad idea.

Assuming they had 30 -50K just laying around doing nothing. A simple investment of 30K at 3.25 for 20 years would have yielded 18562 in returns. So it is “costing” your friend a minimum of 77.34 each month. Plus whatever SMECO charges for the privilege of having a meter ~12.00 plus whatever usage charges when solar isnt working. All that doesn’t really = net zero, it tallies up to ~ 100/month.

 

[Goldenhawk]

Assuming they had 30 -50K just laying around doing nothing. A simple investment of 30K at 3.25 for 20 years would have yielded 18562 in returns. So it is “costing” your friend a minimum of 77.34 each month. Plus whatever SMECO charges for the privilege of having a meter ~12.00 plus whatever usage charges when solar isnt working. All that doesn’t really = net zero, it tallies up to ~ 100/month.

You're making a lot of assumptions that are inaccurate. The actual math works out to saving something like $70K over about 23 years.

For one thing it didn't cost him anywhere near that "$30-50K", given the various rebates and grants that were available. I believe he said the net cost was well under $20K - closer to $15K (it's not a big house). Also, he's a business administrator and knows his math. His payback/breakeven was about 8 years. After that, given his average electric bill, he's avoiding on average $300+ per month until the panels need replacing.

The panels are guaranteed for 20 years - more precisely, for 80% output at 20 years. Assuming 8 years payback, he's got a guaranteed 12 years of useful system life remaining electrical-payment-free. But actually the effective lifespan is much longer if you're okay with declining output, so it's more likely 15-20 years before they're useless. Let's assume 15 years on the LOW end.

And let's do the math at $300 a month saved, which assumes electric rates don't go up. (That's actually a bad assumption, and only the savings are greater if rates rise. But we'll go with it as a worst-case scenario.) At $300, that is $3600 per year. With our assumption of 15 years of earnings, that's $54K of costs avoided AFTER the break-even.

If he invests that saved $300/month at your assumed 3.25%, he'll end up with $70K net: his payments plus earned interest. Remember, his initial investment has paid itself off by avoiding electric bills for 8 years. So his total net is +$70K.

If he'd simply invested that $20k at 3.25%/annual compounded monthly for 23 years, he would have had $42k after 23 years. But during that same time, he would have spent $83K in electric bills by paying $300/month for 276 months. So his net would be SPENDING $83K, EARNING $42K, for a net of -$41K.

I'd take earning $70K over spending $41K any day, thanks.

 

[LightRoasted]

If I may ...

You're making a lot of assumptions that are inaccurate. The actual math works out to saving something like $70K over about 23 years.

For one thing it didn't cost him anywhere near that "$30-50K", given the various rebates and grants that were available. I believe he said the net cost was well under $20K - closer to $15K (it's not a big house). Also, he's a business administrator and knows his math. His payback/breakeven was about 8 years. After that, given his average electric bill, he's avoiding on average $300+ per month until the panels need replacing.

Huh? With the average 4KW system, costing $15K, and the total annual power output for a 4KW system, for this local, on average, is about 5672 kWh/Year. Generating a value, based on SMECO rates, of about $746 per year. A far cry from saving $300 per month. But actually translates to a savings of about $62 month. For a, "not a big house", might be better off figuring out how to reduce his electrical consumption. It seems being a business administrator didn't help him much.

 

[nutz]

You're making a lot of assumptions that are inaccurate. The actual math works out to saving something like $70K over about 23 years.

For one thing it didn't cost him anywhere near that "$30-50K", given the various rebates and grants that were available. I believe he said the net cost was well under $20K - closer to $15K (it's not a big house). Also, he's a business administrator and knows his math. His payback/breakeven was about 8 years. After that, given his average electric bill, he's avoiding on average $300+ per month until the panels need replacing.

The panels are guaranteed for 20 years - more precisely, for 80% output at 20 years. Assuming 8 years payback, he's got a guaranteed 12 years of useful system life remaining electrical-payment-free. But actually the effective lifespan is much longer if you're okay with declining output, so it's more likely 15-20 years before they're useless. Let's assume 15 years on the LOW end.

And let's do the math at $300 a month saved, which assumes electric rates don't go up. (That's actually a bad assumption, and only the savings are greater if rates rise. But we'll go with it as a worst-case scenario.) At $300, that is $3600 per year. With our assumption of 15 years of earnings, that's $54K of costs avoided AFTER the break-even.

If he invests that saved $300/month at your assumed 3.25%, he'll end up with $70K net: his payments plus earned interest. Remember, his initial investment has paid itself off by avoiding electric bills for 8 years. So his total net is +$70K.

If he'd simply invested that $20k at 3.25%/annual compounded monthly for 23 years, he would have had $42k after 23 years. But during that same time, he would have spent $83K in electric bills by paying $300/month for 276 months. So his net would be SPENDING $83K, EARNING $42K, for a net of -$41K.

I'd take earning $70K over spending $41K any day, thanks.

And you dont have one ? All assumptions were based on information(or lack thereof) given.

 

[nutz]

If I may ...


Huh? With the average 4KW system, costing $15K, and the total annual power output for a 4KW system, for this local, on average, is about 5672 kWh/Year. Generating a value, based on SMECO rates, of about $746 per year. A far cry from saving $300 per month. But actually translates to a savings of about $62 month. For a, "not a big house", might be better off figuring out how to reduce his electrical consumption. It seems being a business administrator didn't help him much.

There’s another member that claims free electric but always disappears without answering any questions

 

[Chris0nllyn]

If I may ...


Huh? With the average 4KW system, costing $15K, and the total annual power output for a 4KW system, for this local, on average, is about 5672 kWh/Year. Generating a value, based on SMECO rates, of about $746 per year. A far cry from saving $300 per month. But actually translates to a savings of about $62 month. For a, "not a big house", might be better off figuring out how to reduce his electrical consumption. It seems being a business administrator didn't help him much.

I was going to say the same thing. My 3,000+ sq ft all-electric house has avg electric bills HALF that.

 

[winterspring]

Actually my Sensi controller for the A/C and heat gives me a very nice, how many heating hrs I used each month.

Way better info than what SMECO gives you. Who cares about a neighbor who went to Florida and turned his heat way down.

Private folks do way better than a quasi Government run business.

 

[Goldenhawk]

There’s another member that claims free electric but always disappears without answering any questions

I didn't disappear. I was away from internet service until today, enjoying the electicity on a cruise ship. I mostly leave internet behind when on vacation; it's good for my mind and soul.

Your disparaging remarks about his business administration skills are completely unwarranted.

I readily admit that I may not have his numbers fully correct. We last talked about it a couple years ago. However, I had a conversation with him last week AFTER writing my post (based on my recollection of what he had told me) and his savings since then has been less than he had seen at first, because SMECO policy and also government rebates limited the incentives, and also limited how much power he could sell back. Also, he corrected my understanding about the consistency of his power generation; on cloudy days he doesn't make 100% of his power for the day.

He is considering a battery system to take the excess daytime power and allow him to use it at night. But at present, the costs don't allow for a breakeven in a reasonable time.

He did confirm my recall of the install costs - well under $20K. Government incentives at the time were HUGE.

He is still certain that his breakeven timeframe is close to what I had stated, despite it being less desirable now than before.

His house is older - built in the 70s - and thus not well insulated. That explains his higher monthly costs than you were apparently be expecting. Before you fuss at him for that, note that re-insulating inside existing walls is quite expensive and intrusive. He is well aware of the economics and does not choose to take that step; it would not pay for itself in his lifetime.

His savings range from 60% to 100% per month, consistently. His bills max out at 300, not average 300 - and that's a pretty reasonable number from my experience for a 1500 sq ft house built in the 70s. He heats with a pellet stove, so his heating costs are quite lower than you might otherwise pay, but that balances the lower solar angles in the winter.

With that added information, I still believe my overall conclusions are still valid, despite differences in the numbers. The breakeven math is valid, and quite different from earlier comments in this thread that it's a waste of money.

With all that said, I choose to not go back and edit my original post, because I don't feel that would be honest. I'd rather admit whatever mistakes I made and continue the discussion.

 

[SamSpade]

I was going to say the same thing. My 3,000+ sq ft all-electric house has avg electric bills HALF that.

I can never figure out how this can be, although I have my guesses. My house is also about that size, and is
all electric - and my bills are obscene. Even when the whole family is seriously stingy about energy, we can barely
get the monthly cost below 400 unless it is that month and a half in the spring or fall when the temperature outside
is so mild, the heat pump doesn't even kick in.

Admittedly - I have an old brick home with poor insulation, and like the previous poster observed, it would be
cost prohibitive to re-insulate the house. I'd never recover that cost.

No matter how I work it, my best option for energy savings is just get the hell out of this house.