SOP to degrade and embarass people ....

[Toxick]

You think? There is a fair and equal treatment law in this country. If I am strip searched but you are not because you have some special status, then it's not exactly fair and equal treatment when we are both in the same boat.

Happens all the time.

And I never said it was fair or desirable. Only that certain realities need to be recognized, and complied with, however unfortunate.

Under arrest and incarcerated. How many civil suits will come our way and more imporantly how many will they WIN when it is proven that one suspected criminal is given preferenetial treatment in the booking process over another simply due to status?

When Diplomats are involved, I doubt that many - if any - will make it past the filing a complaint stage.

 

[Toxick]

but might very well be driven to attempt suicide, especially one from a society where shame is a huge motivator.

Problem solved.

 

[glhs837]

Less than if they apply their brains.

Diplomats require special treatment. They just do. Regardless of whether you, or I, or anyone else finds this distasteful, that's the nature of the beast. I don't think local or state police departments should have been involved with this at all. She never should have seen a jail.

The feds should have handled this right out the chute. #### like this is explicitly spelled out in their G-Man employee handbook isn't it?


Works for me.

As soon as it was discovered she was doing these things, she should have been driven straight to her embassy, and the officials there informed that she is no longer welcome on our soil, unless it's to get her to the airport on her way back to Mumbai.

You should look a bit deeper, it seems the feds were involved from the start.

You should look a bit deeper, it seems the feds were involved from the start.

Arrest, strip-search of Indian diplomat in New York triggers uproar - CNN.com

Marie Harf, a State Department spokeswoman, said appropriate procedures appear to have been followed by the Diplomatic Security agents who arrested Khobragade. She said conditions surrounding her processing by U.S. Marshals would be examined.

Pretty sure those are both Federal groups named there.


As for the "straight to the airport", you know she has no immunity for personal behavior, right? WTH should she get a pass breaking our immigration laws for personal gain? She knew that law and chose to break it. Too damn bad. I think India is going all overboard on this as a cover for their own crappy record on the treatment of women these past couple of years. "Meh, whats a little gang rape?". In fact, in one case, a senior police official and a detective both raped a woman who came to them to report one. They have no place to stand and deliver diatribes about "brutal" treatment.

 

[Toxick]

You should look a bit deeper, it seems the feds were involved from the start.

Pretty sure those are both Federal groups named there.

You're absolutely right. I'm totally off-base on that.



And with that said - these agencies definitely should have known better.

WTH should she get a pass breaking our immigration laws for personal gain?

Should? I don't think she should.


However, I did address the spirit of this question earlier.
The response was: To prevent International Incidents such as this one.





The answer has not changed in the past 20 minutes.




Judging by your tone, I'm sure your response is going to be along the lines of "#### India, #### their diplomats, and if they don't like it, we'll give Pakistan one less thing to worry about"

 

[itsrequired]

going clothes shopping then ?

Ya got me, I had a typo.

 

[itsrequired]

Happens all the time.

And I never said it was fair or desirable. Only that certain realities need to be recognized, and complied with, however unfortunate.
When Diplomats are involved, I doubt that many - if any - will make it past the filing a complaint stage.

Why? What court is going to say it is okay to treat a person differently when they are incarcerated than a citizen? I don't think any court would. There's no immunity from arrest procedures in a jail.

 

[Toxick]

Why? What court is going to say it is okay to treat a person differently when they are incarcerated than a citizen? I don't think any court would. There's no immunity from arrest procedures in a jail.

You all seem to be under the impression that I think treating diplomats as if they are above the law is good and fair and just and right.

I'm really not.

I actually find the concept of Diplomatic Immunity to be abhorrent and disturbing on several levels.


What I'm saying is that you cannot treat a diplomat in such a fashion, and then not expect repercussions. If you want to avoid those repercussions, then you need to tread lighter. Period. Otherwise you get situations like this one.

Strip Searching is a humiliating process. Period. There is no way to avoid making that a violation of one's person. For someone "from a society where shame is a huge motivator", it's even worse.

Therefore, strip searching a diplomat - rightly or wrongly according to our procedures - is not ever NOT going to have a backlash. To expect this person to meekly accept that sort of treatment is naïve. To expect her superiors not to respond is stupid.

 

[glhs837]

You're absolutely right. I'm totally off-base on that.



And with that said - these agencies definitely should have known better.







Should? I don't think she should.


However, I did address the spirit of this question earlier.
The response was: To prevent International Incidents such as this one.





The answer has not changed in the past 20 minutes.




Judging by your tone, I'm sure your response is going to be along the lines of "#### India, #### their diplomats, and if they don't like it, we'll give Pakistan one less thing to worry about"

When I went to India, I was careful to abide by their laws, with the knowledge that if I broke them, I could expect to be punished for that. The issue is that in India, folks of a certain social status get kid glove treatment, and she didn't get that here. Not eff them, but by that same token, we shouldn't be expected to give them the same treatment they get at home.

Remember, she isn't a diplomat, she is a consulate employee. Don't let the attempts to change the wording to control the argument. If India doesn't want this to be an incident, they should publicly state that their person broke the law, and is facing the same treatment and punishment that anyone else would. They are the ones using this to inflame tensions. Look at the signs being held by protesters in India, "US NEEDS TO CHANGE HOW IT VIEWS INDIANS", as if it matters a bit that she's Indian. It's pulling the race card on a national level, and it's just as wrong, if not more so than when Sharpton does it.

 

[Toxick]

When I went to India, I was careful to abide by their laws, with the knowledge that if I broke them, I could expect to be punished for that. The issue is that in India, folks of a certain social status get kid glove treatment, and she didn't get that here. Not eff them, but by that same token, we shouldn't be expected to give them the same treatment they get at home.

Remember, she isn't a diplomat, she is a consulate employee. Don't let the attempts to change the wording to control the argument. If India doesn't want this to be an incident, they should publicly state that their person broke the law, and is facing the same treatment and punishment that anyone else would. They are the ones using this to inflame tensions. Look at the signs being held by protesters in India, "US NEEDS TO CHANGE HOW IT VIEWS INDIANS", as if it matters a bit that she's Indian. It's pulling the race card on a national level, and it's just as wrong, if not more so than when Sharpton does it.

You're not going to get an argument about any of that from me. About the only difference is that I think this was handled way inappropriately, and probably by the wrong people.

 

[Grumpy]

You all seem to be under the impression that I think treating diplomats as if they are above the law is good and fair and just and right.

I'm really not.

I actually find the concept of Diplomatic Immunity to be abhorrent and disturbing on several levels.


What I'm saying is that you cannot treat a diplomat in such a fashion, and then not expect repercussions. If you want to avoid those repercussions, then you need to tread lighter. Period. Otherwise you get situations like this one.

Strip Searching is a humiliating process. Period. There is no way to avoid making that a violation of one's person. For someone "from a society where shame is a huge motivator", it's even worse.

Therefore, strip searching a diplomat - rightly or wrongly according to our procedures - is not ever NOT going to have a backlash. To expect this person to meekly accept that sort of treatment is naïve. To expect her superiors not to respond is stupid.

Common sense isn't taught in school anymore, dontchaknow?

 

[Chris0nllyn]

Therefore, strip searching a diplomat - rightly or wrongly according to our procedures - is not ever NOT going to have a backlash. To expect this person to meekly accept that sort of treatment is naïve. To expect her superiors not to respond is stupid.

Speaking of backlash...

India has been furious in its response to what it considers the degrading treatment of a senior diplomat by the United States, a country it sees as a close friend, and retaliated on Tuesday by removing security barriers at the U.S. embassy in New Delhi. The barriers would offer some protection against a suicide-bomb attack

Khurshid said work conditions of Indians employed in U.S. consulates would be investigated to root out any violations of labor laws, adding that there would be a freeze on the duty-free import of alcohol and food for diplomatic staff.

In New Delhi, supporters of a right-wing opposition party held a small protest near the U.S. embassy on Wednesday. About 30 demonstrators, some wearing masks of President Barack Obama and sarongs made from the U.S. flag, demanded an apology.

"It was very good that the government removed the barriers yesterday. Until the USA says sorry, we should not give any security at all to the Americans," said protester Gaurav Khattar, 33.

U.S.' Kerry expresses regret to India over diplomat case

 

[jrt_ms1995]

Doesn't anyone else think maybe she was stripsearched because she's good looking? :shrug:

 

[Ken King]

Why the discrepancy about whether she is a consulate employee with limited immunity or deserving of full immunity as a "senior diplomat" as she is described by India? One would think that that should be rather easy to resolve.

 

[Merlin99]

Common Sense, Isn't .... she could not be booked and released ?





$ 4500 a month is below Minimum Wage
based on what :shrug: a 24 hr work day
I don't think I get paid that much .....
[well ok a little more than that]


$ 4500 x 12 = 54,000 / 2080 = $ 25.96 hr

I really think this case is somehow involved with this one Man poised to lead India barred from entering US | Fox News , I think she's the stalking horse to see how the Indians are going to take having their prime minister denied an entry visa.

 

[GURPS]

.... you know she has no immunity for personal behavior, right?

like Rape ?

I recall a case in the 1990's
.. a 'diplomat' was suspected in raping several women in NYC, but he could not be questioned let alone charged ... I am fuzzy on the outcome, he either went home, or had his status finally stripped and was charged

 

[glhs837]

Why the discrepancy about whether she is a consulate employee with limited immunity or deserving of full immunity as a "senior diplomat" as she is described by India? One would think that that should be rather easy to resolve.

When she committed the crime she was a consular employee, but now the Indians have moved her into the main office and calling a senior diplomat to lend more weight to their protests. It's a fact that her job title was deputy consul. Read here........ bolding mine

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consul_(representative)

Contrary to popular belief, although many of the staff of consulates may be career diplomats, they do not generally have diplomatic immunity (unless they are also accredited as such). Immunities and privileges for consuls and accredited staff of consulates (consular immunity) are generally limited to actions undertaken in their official capacity and, with respect to the consulate itself, to those required for official duties. In practice, the extension and application of consular privileges and immunities can be subject to wide discrepancies from country to country.

 

[GURPS]

ok so she is a consulate employee with or without immunity

India's deputy consul general - sounds sorta official


charged with paying less than the NYC / NY State required Minimum Wage and falsifying an immigration form

Why India is upset about Devyani Khobragade, and why it’s wrong

U.S.-India relations haven’t been this fragile in years. Why? Last week, the United States apprehended an Indian diplomat, Devyani Khobragade, and charged her with providing false information in a visa application for her nanny, whom she paid $3.31 an hour, well below minimum wage. Many are wondering why India is outraged.

[clip]

Although Khobragade’s “indignities” seem pretty standard, in India, the perception that a woman’s honor is the community, society and country’s honor still holds. It’s one of the reasons many women are hesitant to speak about rape — their chastity is their family’s as well. So when reports were released that an Indian diplomat was touched, strip-searched, and treated like a mere criminal — that didn’t go over well with the Indian population.

It’s not the first time an Indian diplomat has gotten in trouble over this issue — last February, Neena Malhotra was ordered to pay $1.5 million to her former maid for “barbaric” conditions. But there was no strip-search, no jail time and, therefore, no mass protests.

[clip]

Low wages for servants is normal.

It’s not just the privileged in India who have help. According to this report, “The going monthly rate for a live-in maid or cook, who often works for more than 12 hours a day, six days a week, is still low: only 4,000-10,000 rupees ($73-184) in the cities.”

While having servants or chauffeurs in the United States is a luxury attained by a select few, even lower-middle-class families in India have some sort of hired help. In this case, the treatment of the women in question wasn’t about any form of abuse — it was about a payment discrepancy. In India, that would rarely amount to jail time, especially for someone with means.

I'd be willing to bet $ 3.31 hr is WAY MORE that the maid would get back home .... why is the US even involved :shrug:

Devyani Khobragade’s consular rights don’t include a cut rate nanny


It is simply this. Do Indians have a domestic help problem? And why do we not seem to get it no matter how many times we trip up?

In 2012 Neena Malhotra, India’s cultural and press counselor in New York was ordered to pay out nearly $1.5 million for forcing an underaged Indian girl to work with little to no pay in their plush 43rd Street Manhattan apartment. She had been told she would be raped, beaten and sent to India as “cargo” if she left the home without their permission.

In 2011 Prabhu Dayal, the consul general in New York was accused of treating his domestic help as a “slave”. Santosh Bhardwaj, the maid in question, said in her lawsuit that she was forced to work long hours for $300 a month, her passport was confiscated and she had to sleep in a storage closet. She also alleged sexual overtures which Dayal vehemently denied.

Ms Khobragade is accused of visa fraud and exploiting her babysitter and housekeeper. According to the 11-page criminal complaint in her A-3 visa application for her domestic help, the domestic help alleged she worked far more than 40 hours a week and was paid less than $9.75 per hour as had been agreed to in a contract she had signed with Ms. Khobragade for her visa application. Ms Khobragade reportedly got her help to agree to being paid no more than Rs30,000 which works out to about $3.31 per hour.

"Foreign nationals brought to the United States to serve as domestic workers are entitled to the same protections against exploitation as those afforded to United States citizens," said Preet Bharara, the US attorney for the Southern District of New York. His office alleges Ms Khobragade tried to circumvent US protections for workers by submitting false documents and information while applying for a visa for “a babysitter and housekeeper” she brought from India.

The US has gone overboard against Indian diplomat Devyani Khobragade

The Khobargade incident puts a laser beam focus on the plight of domestic helps of Foreign Service officers and in a way has done lot of good in highlighting an important social evil that is rampant worldwide.

The US should ask this question to the 194 countries it has diplomatic relations with: who actually meets the minimum wage requirement of $4500 per month for an employee as per the US government rules under which action was taken against Khobragade?

If the US were to implement its laws to the core with respect to all the 194 countries it has diplomatic ties with then it will have to handcuff and jail hundreds of diplomats, and that too maybe frequently. That is because the minimum wages US laws prescribe for workers hired by foreign missions happens to be more than the wages of the employer himself/herself.

Why? Consider the facts below.

The nanny, Sangeeta Richard, who was hired by Devyani, was to be paid $4500 per month. In other words, the charge against Devyani is that she paid at a rate of a mere $3.31 per hour to her domestic help when she should have paid thrice that amount to remain safe in the US – legally and diplomatically.

But the question is how can Khobragade pay her nanny $ 4500 per month when she is being paid $ 4120 per month, a point that has been stated by her father Uttam Khobragade, a retired IAS officer. It is an important point which Washington needs to take into consideration, because this is not India’s story alone.


[clip]

An important fact in this case, which the US court cannot disregard, is that Khobragade had registered a complaint in a New Delhi court earlier this year against her domestic help Sangeeta Richard after she was harassed by the maid with demands for more money. Khobragade got a boost when a court in Delhi issued a non-bailable arrest warrant against Richard. In September this year the Delhi High Court issued an injunction restraining the maid from instituting any action or proceedings against Khobragade outside India.

apparently this already played out in Courts in New Delhi

 

[GURPS]

Conspiracy Time ...

so if the FEDS were involved and did this intentionally

Why :shrug:


[to weaken ties with India so DoS can step it up with Paki]

 

[GURPS]

Timeline of Devyani Khobragade case - The Times of India



September 4: State department steps in, writes to the Indian ambassador saying the matter was of "considerable concern" for the US.

September 21: The embassy replies, saying this was none of US' business and that the maid was seeking a monetary settlement and US visa, whereby subverting both Indian and US laws.

September 20: Delhi HC passes an interim injunction restraining the maid and her husband from filing for any action against Khobragade in any foreign court.

November 19: A Delhi court issues a non-bailable warrant against the maid.

December 6: The warrant is forwarded to the US embassy with an official request to arrest the woman and facilitate her repatriation but this is ignored.

December 10: The maid's husband and children fly off to New York after they are given visa confirming India's suspicion that the maid was acting to get herself a "trafficked person" status.

sounds like the maid was playing the immigration version of the Ghetto Lottery

 

[Lurk]

WTH should she get a pass breaking our immigration laws for personal gain? She knew that law and chose to break it.

If she had been from South of the Rio Grande she'd be on a "Pathway to citizenship" at this point.