Teacher wins major victory for God in school

foodcritic

New Member
My comment wasn't on the article, it was on the people who get bent and talk about how awful schools are because God isn't in them. :cds:

Because skool is about education......history, especially our own, would seem important in that process.....maybe it's just me..:killingme
 

bcp

In My Opinion
Seeing as how math, reading, writing, history, etc. are all educational subjects taught at school, I'm not sure how religion (which is totally different to different people, depending on one's opinions) fits in. Kids should be in school to learn, not to pray.

If parents want to teach stories and myths, or teach that there is no God, that is on them, not the public school. Sorry if parents are too lazy to teach religion at home.
so, you dont see how religion may in some small way helped shape history? and by understanding what people believed (based on individual religions) might just help explain some good, and yes, some bad things in history?

Sorry if parents are too lazy to make sure their kids know that the religious theories of those in history were totally false.

its almost like they are afraid their kids are going to be converted or something.

It works both ways, it really does.
 

Cowgirl

Well-Known Member
so, you dont see how religion may in some small way helped shape history? and by understanding what people believed (based on individual religions) might just help explain some good, and yes, some bad things in history?

Sorry if parents are too lazy to make sure their kids know that the religious theories of those in history were totally false.

its almost like they are afraid their kids are going to be converted or something.

It works both ways, it really does.


I think we're thinking of two different types of religious teaching. :lol: I think teaching history is important, and history of course is shaped by religion. Teaching that is fine. What I don't think should be taught, is actual religion. Does that make sense? It's hard to explain.
 

Penn

Dancing Up A Storm
You see the contextual reading of these documents based on all the supporting documentation and quotations. The founders were not muslims or buddhists. Knucklhead knows this but won't admit it. We know the founders were mostly Christians and members of churches. Now some leaned towards a deist idea but all believed in God.

Knucklehead probably knows this but his feverish hatred towards anything religious will parse words, definitions etc to try to make a point that the founders wanted some sort of complete secular state free of God.

Others mentioned the magna carta and other documents that clearly supported why they fled. It is in that understanding of history that the constitution was written. It was not with the understanding that one day it would be used to support gay marriage, pornography, abortion confiscatory taxation etc.

This is how you know that knucklesack is not an honest contributor to the debate.

This!
 

Nucklesack

New Member
you are correct with the bill of rights, however the Federalist papers were letters written by the framers that actually described what was meant when certain things where stated in the constitution.

Interpreting the constitution without the papers is like throwing away the directions before building a complex model.

And just like their varying beliefs, the Federalist Papers also vary in regards to their intent. While you may find some Founding Fathers wanted a Christian nation, others did not.
 

bcp

In My Opinion
I think we're thinking of two different types of religious teaching. :lol: I think teaching history is important, and history of course is shaped by religion. Teaching that is fine. What I don't think should be taught, is actual religion. Does that make sense? It's hard to explain.
well then I think we do agree.
I dont think actual religion should be taught either, as in so far as saying that all you kids will worship as Catholics, or Muslums etc... That is the meaning of what the constitution says about religion, there will be no government religion established. and I agree with that.

where we break down is things like a teacher wearing a religious shirt, or not allowing any religious mention in a government paid for building etc.. Putting up a CHRISTMAS TREE is not going to make little obama or the little rosenberg kid suddenly become a Bible thumping Jesus freak.

All that said, I dont see any problem with teaching what christians believe or what muslums or Jews believe. Its acceptable right up to the point that someone tells the little kids that the WILL PRAY TO GOD regardless of their belief.
 

Nucklesack

New Member
Link please.

Are you going to actually read them? or will you dismiss it because it doesnt fit your preconcieved notions?

You can do your own search (on this very board) for Jefferson, Franklin, Paine and Washingtons feelings about Freedom of and from Religion. There are quotes aplenty regarding them.


This circumstance, if duly attended to, would furnish a lesson of moderation to those who are ever so much persuaded of their being in the right in any controversy. And a further reason for caution, in this respect, might be drawn from the reflection that we are not always sure that those who advocate the truth are influenced by purer principles than their antagonists. Ambition, avarice, personal animosity, party opposition, and many other motives not more laudable than these, are apt to operate as well upon those who support as those who oppose the right side of a question. Were there not even these inducements to moderation, nothing could be more ill-judged than that intolerant spirit which has, at all times, characterized political parties. For in politics, as in RELIGION, it is equally absurd to aim at making proselytes by fire and sword. Heresies in either can rarely be cured by persecution.​
Federalist Paper #1

Second. It is of great importance in a republic not only to guard the society against the oppression of its rulers, but to guard one part of the society against the injustice of the other part. Different interests necessarily exist in different classes of citizens. If a majority be united by a Common interest, the rights of the minority will be insecure. There are but two methods of providing against this evil: the one by creating a will in the community independent of the majority—that is, of the society itself; the other, by comprehending in the society so many separate descriptions of citizens as will render an unjust combination of a majority of the whole very improbable, if not impracticable. The first method prevails in all governments possessing an hereditary or self-appointed authority. This, at best, is but a precarious security; because a power independent of the society may as well espouse the unjust views of the major as the rightful interests of the minor party, and may possibly be turned against both parties. The second method will be exemplified in the federal republic of the United States. Whilst all authority in it will be derived from and dependent on the society, the society itself will be broken into so many parts, interests and classes of citizens, that the rights of individuals, or of the minority, will be in little danger from interested combinations of the majority. In a free government the security for civil rights must be the same as that for RELIGIOUS RIGHTS. It consists in the one case in the multiplicity of interests, and in the other in the multiplicity of SECTS. The degree of security in both cases will depend on the number of interests and SECTS; and this may be presumed to depend on the extent of country and number of people comprehended under the same government. This view of the subject must particularly recommend a proper federal system to all the sincere and considerate friends of republican government, since it shows that in exact proportion as the territory of the Union may be formed into more circumscribed Confederacies, or States, oppressive combinations of a majority will be facilitated; the best security, under the republican forms, for the rights of every class of citizen, will be diminished; and consequently the stability and independence of some member of the government, the only other security, must be proportionally increased. Justice is the end of government. It is the end of civil society. It ever has been and ever will be pursued until it be obtained or until liberty be lost in the pursuit, In a society under the forms of which the stronger faction can readily unite and oppress the weaker, anarchy may as truly be said to reign as in a state of nature, where the weaker individual is not secured against the violence of the stronger; and as, in the latter state, even the stronger individuals are prompted, by the uncertainty of their condition, to submit to a government which may protect the weak as well as them selves; so, in the former state, will the more: powerful factions or parties be gradually induced by a like motive, to wish for a government which will protect all parties, the weaker as well as the more powerful. It can be little doubted that if the State of Rhode Island was separated from the Confederacy and left to itself, the insecurity of rights under the popular farm of government within such narrow limits would be displayed by such reiterated oppressions of factious majorities that some power altogether independent of the people would soon be called for by the voice of the very factions whose misrule had proved the necessity of it. In the extended republic of the United States, and among the great variety of interests, parties, and SECTS which it embraces, a coalition of a majority of the whole society could seldom take place on any other principles than those of justice and. the general good; whilst there being thus less danger to a minor from the will of a major party, there must be less pretext, also, to provide for the security of the former, try introducing into the government a will not dependent on the latter, or, in other words, a will independent of the society itself. It is no less certain than it is important, notwithstanding the contrary opinions which have been entertained, that the larger the society, provided it lie within. a practicable sphere, the more duly capable it will be of self-government. And happily for the republican cause, the practicable sphere may be carried to a very great extent by a judicious modification and mixture of the federal principle.​
Federalist Paper #51

Who are to be the electors of the federal representatives? Not the rich, more than the poor; not the learned, more than the ignorant; not the haughty heirs of distinguished names, more than the humble sons of obscurity and unpropitious fortune. The electors are to be the great body of the people of the United States. They are to be the same who exercise the right in every State of electing the corresponding branch of the legislature of the State. Who are to be the objects of popular choice? Every citizen whose merit may recommend him to the esteem and confidence of his country. No qualification of wealth, of birth, OF RELIGIOUS FAITH, or of civil profession is permitted to fetter the judgement or disappoint the inclination of the people. If we consider the situation of​
Federalist Paper #57
 

Nucklesack

New Member
well then I think we do agree.
I dont think actual religion should be taught either, as in so far as saying that all you kids will worship as Catholics, or Muslums etc... That is the meaning of what the constitution says about religion, there will be no government religion established. and I agree with that.
Yep
where we break down is things like a teacher wearing a religious shirt, or not allowing any religious mention in a government paid for building etc.. Putting up a CHRISTMAS TREE is not going to make little obama or the little rosenberg kid suddenly become a Bible thumping Jesus freak.
I agree, i have no problem with someone's personal beliefs. And i dont care if a Teacher believes in any God, or doesnt. But then that hasnt been the discussion anyways.

The problem comes in, when the Teacher, Parent, Child, Adminstrator, etc decides the Freedom of Religion means they are free to push their religious beliefs upon those of others. Whether they follow the same entity or not.

Subjecting the unwilling to your beliefs is still an infringement of others rights.
All that said, I dont see any problem with teaching what christians believe or what muslums or Jews believe. Its acceptable right up to the point that someone tells the little kids that the WILL PRAY TO GOD regardless of their belief.
Thats even fine, as long as it is inclusive. The point that it become exclusive, "Scientologists are wacky Cultists", "Wiccans are Satan Worshippers", "Satanism shouldnt be taught" is when you violate the Constitution.

So on top of everything else kids are supposed to be learning, how much time will get devoted to Religious history, remember this class has to be inclusive and cover all?
 

Nucklesack

New Member
You see the contextual reading of these documents based on all the supporting documentation and quotations. The founders were not muslims or buddhists. Knucklhead knows this but won't admit it. We know the founders were mostly Christians and members of churches. Now some leaned towards a deist idea but all believed in God.
Nice to see your still being dishonest. So the Deist God is the same as your own? You might want to read up a bit before making that claim

But hell your having enough problem understanding your own faith
Knucklehead probably knows this but his feverish hatred towards anything religious will parse words, definitions etc to try to make a point that the founders wanted some sort of complete secular state free of God.
Hmm so instead of addressing my actual point, you decide to shift the conversation into something that it never was.

The only dishonesty in this conversation has been from Penn who claimed God was referenced in the Constitution and Bill of Rights (was willing to giving him the benefit of the doubt and was just ignorant, but he has yet to correct his statement) and yourself. But then you have a history of dishonesty on these boards so thats nothign new
Others mentioned the magna carta and other documents that clearly supported why they fled. It is in that understanding of history that the constitution was written. It was not with the understanding that one day it would be used to support gay marriage, pornography, abortion confiscatory taxation etc.
The Founding Fathers, were not the Pilgrims you friggin idiot, you and Penn need a history lesson
This is how you know that knucklesack is not an honest contributor to the debate.

So refute it: Where in the Constitution or Bill of Rights :)killingme) is God mentioned? What in the Constitution or Bill of Rights :)killingme) leads you to believe the Founding Fathers intended for a Christian Nation?
 

Nucklesack

New Member
so, you dont see how religion may in some small way helped shape history? and by understanding what people believed (based on individual religions) might just help explain some good, and yes, some bad things in history?

Sorry if parents are too lazy to make sure their kids know that the religious theories of those in history were totally false.

its almost like they are afraid their kids are going to be converted or something.

It works both ways, it really does.

Teaching that some of the Founding Fathers were Christian and started a nation, is totally different than teaching that the Founding Fathers wanted a Christian Nation.

Christian Revisionists can not understand the difference.
 

ItalianScallion

Harley Rider
My comment wasn't on the article, it was on the people who get bent and talk about how awful schools are because God isn't in them. :cds:
Can you say that schools today are safer than they were in the 1960's?
Shootings every week, fights, drugs, gangs, rapes, guns brought to school, etc.
 

foodcritic

New Member
The only dishonesty in this conversation has been from Penn who claimed God was referenced in the Constitution and Bill of Rights (was willing to giving him the benefit of the doubt and was just ignorant, but he has yet to correct his statement) and yourself. But then you have a history of dishonesty on these boards so thats nothign new

I think he simply meant it was implied...

The Founding Fathers, were not the Pilgrims you friggin idiot, you and Penn need a history lesson
Shame shame I never said they were....there you go spreading your lies again.

So refute it: Where in the Constitution or Bill of Rights :)killingme) is God mentioned? What in the Constitution or Bill of Rights :)killingme) leads you to believe the Founding Fathers intended for a Christian Nation?

Its refuted by the context from which is was written

The New England Primer was the first reading primer designed for the American Colonies. It became the most successful educational textbook published in colonial American and the early days of United States history.
The New England Primer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Apparently the founders were so outraged by the most used educational tool in this country that they stamped out.......DOH Thankfully no. The book was used for hundreds of years....You can still buy it.....may do you some good.:coffee:
 

ItalianScallion

Harley Rider
Teaching that some of the Founding Fathers were Christian and started a nation, is totally different than teaching that the Founding Fathers wanted a Christian Nation.
You talk a whole lot about Founding Fathers but have you really seen what some of them and some Presidents and other good men have said? 2A had a post with tons of their statements. Here's a few for you my atheist buddy and anyone else who might be interested. Due to the massive amounts of ignorance about Christianity on here and which god and which Bible, this should clear up some things:

John Adams (2nd President):

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue.
The highest glory of the American Revolution was this: it connected, in one indissoluble bond, the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity.


Abigail Adams wife of John Adams:

A patriot without religion, in my estimation, is as great a paradox as an honest man without the fear of God. Is it possible that he whom no moral obligations bind, can have any real good will towards men? Can he be a patriot who, by an openly vicious conduct, is undermining the very bonds of society? The Scriptures tell us righteousness exalts a nation.

Elias Boudinot President of the Continental Congress and president of the American Bible Society:

Good government generally begins in the family, and if the moral character of the people once degenerate, their political character must soon follow.

Edmund Burke:

All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.

Charles Carroll – signer of the Declaration of Independence:

Without morals, a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they, therefore, who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure and which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments.

George Washington Carver:

Why, then, should we who believe in Christ be so surprised at what God can do with a willing man in a laboratory? Some things must be baffling to the critic who has never been born again.

John Dickinson – a signer of the Constitution and a member of the Continental Congress:

The rights essential to happiness…We claim them from a higher source – from the King of kings and Lord of all the earth.

Ben Franklin (1778):

A Bible and a newspaper in every house, a good school in every district – all studied and appreciated as they merit – are the principle support of virtue, morality and civil liberty.
The longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth: that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid?


Patrick Henry:

It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded not by religionists, but by Christians, not on religion, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ! For this very reason, peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity and freedom of worship here. (Just for you Nuck)

Andrew Jackson:

The Bible is the foundation upon which our republic rests.

John Jay – first Chief Justice of the Supreme Court and one of 3 men most responsible for our Constitution:

Providence has given our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty, as well as privilege and interest, of a Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers.

Thomas Jefferson:

God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure if we have removed their only firm basis: a conviction in the minds of men that these liberties are a gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever.

(In his January 1 1802 address to the Danbury Baptists):
The First Amendment has erected a wall of separation between church and state, but that wall is a one directional wall. It keeps the government from running the church, but it makes sure Christian principles will always stay in government.


Abraham Lincoln:

But we have forgotten God. We have forgotten the gracious hand which preserves us in peace, and multiplied and enriched and strengthened us; and we have vainly imagined, in the deceitfulness of our hearts, that all these blessings were produced by some superior wisdom and virtue of our own.
Oh, thou God that heard Solomon in the night when he prayed and cried for wisdom, hear me…I cannot guide the affairs of this nation without thy help. Hear me and save this nation.


General Douglas MacArthur:

History fails to record a single precedent in which nations subject to moral decay have not passed into political and economic decline. There has been either a spiritual awakening to overcome the moral lapse, or a progressive deterioration leading to ultimate national disaster.

James Madison:

We have staked the future of all of our political institutions upon the capacity of mankind for self-government, upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God.

William Penn:

Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God.
Those people who will not be governed by God will be ruled by tyrants.


Theodore Roosevelt:

The thought of modern industry in the hands of Christian charity is a dream worth dreaming. The thought of industry in the hands of paganism is a nightmare beyond imagining.

Benjamin Rush – a signer of the Declaration of Independence:

The only foundation for…a republic is to be laid in religion. Without this there can be no virtue, and without virtue there can be no liberty, and liberty is the object and life of all republican governments.

Alexis de Tocqueville:

Not until I went into churches of America and heard her pulpits flame with righteousness did I understand the secret of her genius and power. America is great because America is good, and if America ever ceases to be good, America will cease to be great.

Noah Webster:

The moral principles and precepts contained in the Scripture ought to form the basis of all our civil constitutions and laws. All the miseries and evil men suffer from, vice, crime, ambition, injustice, oppression, slavery and war, proceed from their despising or neglecting the precepts contained in the Bible.

John Witherspoon – the only clergyman in the Continental Congress:

He is the best friend to American liberty, who is most sincere and active in promoting true and undefiled religion, and who set himself in the greatest firmness to bear down on profanity and immorality of every kind. Whoever is an avowed enemy of God, I scruple not to call him an enemy to his country.

George Washington:

Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible.
The time is now near at hand which must probably determine whether Americans are to be freemen or slaves; whether they are to have any property they can call their own; whether their houses and farms are to be pillaged and destroyed, and themselves consigned to a state of wretchedness from which no human efforts will deliver them. The fate of unborn millions will now depend on God, on the courage and conduct of this army. Our cruel and unrelenting enemy leaves us only the choice of brave resistance, or the most abject submission. We have, therefore, to resolve to conquer or die. (1776).
To the distinguished character of Patriot it should be our highest glory to laud the more distinguished character of Christian.


Daniel Webster:

Our ancestors established their system of government on morality and religious sentiment. Moral habits, they believed, cannot safely be entrusted on any other foundation than religious principle, nor any government secure which is not supported by moral habits…Whatever makes men good Christians, makes them good citizens.

Quote from: The Supreme Court of the United States 1892 – Church of the Holy Trinity v. United States:

Our laws and our institutions must necessarily be based upon and embody the teachings of the Redeemer of mankind. It is impossible that it should be otherwise, and in this sense and to this extent our civilization and our institutions are emphatically Christian.

Bonus quote:
The Holy Bible, after reviewing 15,000 items of the Founding Fathers (including newspaper articles, pamphlets, books monographs, etc.), was found to directly contribute 34 percent of all quotes. The other main sources that the Founders quoted include Montesquieu, Blackstone, Locke, etc., who themselves took 60 percent of their quotes directly from the Bible. Direct and indirect quotes combined reveal that 94 percent of all of the quotes of the Founding Fathers are derived from the Bible.

ItalianScallion:
You would be wise to cut & paste & keep these quotes handy. :evil:
 

Penn

Dancing Up A Storm
Do you really think Knucklesack will bother to save these quotes from those of our Founding Fathers?

Don't hold your breath for more than 10 seconds, because it it won't happen!

Too much denial going on in his mind.....sad, but true.
 

Highlander

ONE NATION UNDER GOD
:yeahthat:
Do you really think Knucklesack will bother to save these quotes from those of our Founding Fathers?

Don't hold your breath for more than 10 seconds, because it it won't happen!

Too much denial going on in his mind.....sad, but true.

:yeahthat:
 

Cowgirl

Well-Known Member
Can you say that schools today are safer than they were in the 1960's?
Shootings every week, fights, drugs, gangs, rapes, guns brought to school, etc.

Can you prove that violence in schools is directly linked to religion or lack thereof?

Until you can do that and not just tell me what you *think* is happening, I don't really care.
 

ItalianScallion

Harley Rider
Do you really think Knucklesack will bother to save these quotes from those of our Founding Fathers?

Don't hold your breath for more than 10 seconds, because it it won't happen!

Too much denial going on in his mind.....sad, but true.
I am absolutely sure he won't c&p them, he'll just deny them, but it doesn't change the truth. I'm after accountability. They're for anyone who wants to have them as a reference.
I'm just showing that we started out as a Christian nation. Even though every Founding Father wasn't "born again", they were still guided by the hand of the only true God and yet some didn't even know it. The morality they stood for came only from God.
 

ItalianScallion

Harley Rider
Can you prove that violence in schools is directly linked to religion or lack thereof?

Until you can do that and not just tell me what you *think* is happening, I don't really care.
I can; can you prove that it wasn't? Just look up the changes that occurred when prayer, the 10 Commandments and Bible reading were removed by Madeline Murray O'Hare. Go on; deny it honestly...:evil:
 

D-35

New Member
Amen...

Teaching that some of the Founding Fathers were Christian and started a nation, is totally different than teaching that the Founding Fathers wanted a Christian Nation.

Christian Revisionists can not understand the difference.

Amen, my brother.
 
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