Larry Gude
Strung Out
...this years honorary starter, Arnold Palmer, played his first Masters in 1955.
He played his first round with Gene Sarazen.
He played his first round with Gene Sarazen.
The Masters...
- Thread starter Larry Gude
- Start date
Larry Gude
Strung Out
That is...
...so cool.
Enjoy!
Pete said:I might be going Saturday afternoon.
...so cool.
Enjoy!
Larry Gude
Strung Out
Tom Boswell...
...writes the piece I've been waiting years for in todays Post;
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/06/AR2007040602306.html
They've gone to far with course changes intended to 'keep up' with equipment improvements. Every since Tigers dramatic, record setting win in 1997, the powers that be have been messing with Augusta National to keep it from becoming obsolete. At the time it seemed silly. Tiger only broke the record by ONE stroke over two other players from two very different years.
Augusta National is a true national treasure and, as the only course the pro's play a 'major' on every year, it is near and dear to most every golf fans heart because we get to know it so well. Familiarity breeds affection and it was just so special that the course Tiger stalks is pretty much the one Jack did, which is pretty much the one Arnold did, Snead did, Hogan did, Nelson did and Sarazen did.
There has always been changes, but mostly subtle and certainly not dramatic. It has always bothered me when they made big changes; Dramatically lengthening holes. Adding forests of trees. Odd mounding. Choking fairways. And the worst of all; rough. There's no crying in baseball and there's NO rough at the Masters.
They've gotten away with it as the last 10 years has seen mostly unusually heavy spring rains that softened the course which is a green light for scoring. During that time, scoring was good, but by no means unusually good. Tigers '97 record still stands. This has proven, rather unnoticed, that the original premise was flawed, that equipment was going to make the course a joke.
That always bothered me too, that a club makes your score lower; I don't care if you play the forward tee's, you still gotta get it close AND make the putt and the greens have always been Augusta's strength. Hell, the short irons some players were starting to play into greens made many holes, in some ways, harder, as spin could actually make matters worse vs. rolling up a mid or long iron. And for that matter, the games Big Gun, John Daley has never played well there, at all, changes or no.
So, the players and insiders knew this was coming; a dry Spring. Right now, we're watching US Open conditions and we're seeing that an awful lot of changes are completely unreasonable. In dry springs back in the day, you could still count on attacking the par 5's and some of the longer holes would become good gambles as your T shoots would get closer than normal. Now, long drivers, the Kings of the Past, are paying the price for missing fairways and the excitement, the risk/reward that is the Masters, has been 'improved' out of the game.
Give us back our Augusta National!
...writes the piece I've been waiting years for in todays Post;
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/06/AR2007040602306.html
They've gone to far with course changes intended to 'keep up' with equipment improvements. Every since Tigers dramatic, record setting win in 1997, the powers that be have been messing with Augusta National to keep it from becoming obsolete. At the time it seemed silly. Tiger only broke the record by ONE stroke over two other players from two very different years.
Augusta National is a true national treasure and, as the only course the pro's play a 'major' on every year, it is near and dear to most every golf fans heart because we get to know it so well. Familiarity breeds affection and it was just so special that the course Tiger stalks is pretty much the one Jack did, which is pretty much the one Arnold did, Snead did, Hogan did, Nelson did and Sarazen did.
There has always been changes, but mostly subtle and certainly not dramatic. It has always bothered me when they made big changes; Dramatically lengthening holes. Adding forests of trees. Odd mounding. Choking fairways. And the worst of all; rough. There's no crying in baseball and there's NO rough at the Masters.
They've gotten away with it as the last 10 years has seen mostly unusually heavy spring rains that softened the course which is a green light for scoring. During that time, scoring was good, but by no means unusually good. Tigers '97 record still stands. This has proven, rather unnoticed, that the original premise was flawed, that equipment was going to make the course a joke.
That always bothered me too, that a club makes your score lower; I don't care if you play the forward tee's, you still gotta get it close AND make the putt and the greens have always been Augusta's strength. Hell, the short irons some players were starting to play into greens made many holes, in some ways, harder, as spin could actually make matters worse vs. rolling up a mid or long iron. And for that matter, the games Big Gun, John Daley has never played well there, at all, changes or no.
So, the players and insiders knew this was coming; a dry Spring. Right now, we're watching US Open conditions and we're seeing that an awful lot of changes are completely unreasonable. In dry springs back in the day, you could still count on attacking the par 5's and some of the longer holes would become good gambles as your T shoots would get closer than normal. Now, long drivers, the Kings of the Past, are paying the price for missing fairways and the excitement, the risk/reward that is the Masters, has been 'improved' out of the game.
Give us back our Augusta National!
Otter
Nothing to see here
Larry Gude said:
Length had to be added prior to what 97 but wasn't done. Tiger just forced them to make changes to make Augusta the challenge it was back when equipment wasn't as advanced as it is now. If Tiger hadn't shot lights out in 97, someone else would have. Look at historical driving stats(this is 1980) and you have to know that length had to be added. If it wasn't added, it would make a mockery of the past champions scores. If they wanted to keep Augusta 'as is', they should outfit all the players with vintage 1960/70s equipment and see how they fare. Average drive leader on todays tour is 314 yds, in 1980, it was 274. 165 tour pros now average more than the leader in 1980. I have no problem whatsoever with the changes made to Augusta.
BTW, I haven't read Boswell this morning, so I don't know what his arguments are and I wanted to give my 2 cents prior to reading his points.
Otter
Nothing to see here
BTw, here are the 500plus yds added since 1997
The Augusta National Golf Club has undergone a transformation since Tiger Woods won the 1997 Masters with a record 18-under-par 270 total. The following is a hole-by-hole summary of the changes:
No. 1, 400 yards in 1997, 455 yards in 2006
2002: Tee moved back 20-25 yards. Fairway bunker reshaped and extended 10-15 yards toward the green. Portion of fairway landing area regraded.
2006: Tee moved back 15-20 yards. Trees added to left side of fairway.
No. 2, 555 yards in 1997, 575 yards in 2006
1999: Tee moved back 20-25 yards. Fairway bunker shifted to the right.
No. 4, 205 yards in 1997, 240 yards in 2006
2006: Tee moved back 30-35 yards.
No. 5, 435 yards in 1997, 455 yards in 2006
2003: Tee moved back 20 yards. Fairway bunkers extended approximately 80 yards toward the green. Fairway and bunkers shifted to the right, increasing angle of the dogleg.
No. 7, 360 yards in 1997, 450 yards in 2006
2002: Tee moved back 40-45 yards. Portion of fairway landing area regraded.
2006: Tee moved back 35-40 yards. Green re-grassed to create possible right-rear flagstick location. Trees added to both sides of the fairway.
No. 8, 535 yards in 1997, 570 yards in 2006
2002: Tee moved back 15-20 yards and shifted 10 yards to right. Fairway bunker reshaped and nearly doubled in size.
No. 9, 435 yards in 1997, 460 yards in 2006
2002: Tee moved back 25-30 yards.
No. 10, 485 yards in 1997, 495 yards in 2006
2002: Tee moved back 5-10 yards and shifted 5 yards to left.
No. 11, 455 yards in 1997, 505 yards in 2006
1999: Green, pond and bunker complex adjusted.
2002: Tee moved back 30-35 yards and shifted 5 yards to right. Portion of fairway landing area regraded.
2004: Thirty-six pine trees added to right side of fairway.
2006: Tee moved back 10-15 yards. Trees added to right side of fairway and fairway shifted to the left.
No. 13, 485 yards in 1997, 510 yards in 2006
2002: Tee moved back 20-25 yards.
2004: Green rebuilt and sub-surface heating and cooling system installed.
No. 14, 405 yards in 1997, 440 yards in 2006
2002: Tee moved back 30-35 yards.
No. 15, 500 yards in 1997, 530 yards in 2006
1999: Fairway mounds reduced and pine trees added to right and left.
2006: Tee moved back 30-35 yards and shifted approximately 20 yards to left.
No. 17, 400 yards in 1997, 440 yards in 2006
1999: Tee moved back 25 yards.
2006: Tee moved back 10-15 yards.
No. 18, 405 yards in 1997, 465 yards in 2006
2002: Tee moved back 55-60 yards and shifted 5 yards to right. Bunker complex adjusted, making bunkers approximately 10% larger. Trees added left of fairway bunkers. Green re-grassed and expanded to recover lost edges.
Source: 2006 Masters media guide
The Augusta National Golf Club has undergone a transformation since Tiger Woods won the 1997 Masters with a record 18-under-par 270 total. The following is a hole-by-hole summary of the changes:
No. 1, 400 yards in 1997, 455 yards in 2006
2002: Tee moved back 20-25 yards. Fairway bunker reshaped and extended 10-15 yards toward the green. Portion of fairway landing area regraded.
2006: Tee moved back 15-20 yards. Trees added to left side of fairway.
No. 2, 555 yards in 1997, 575 yards in 2006
1999: Tee moved back 20-25 yards. Fairway bunker shifted to the right.
No. 4, 205 yards in 1997, 240 yards in 2006
2006: Tee moved back 30-35 yards.
No. 5, 435 yards in 1997, 455 yards in 2006
2003: Tee moved back 20 yards. Fairway bunkers extended approximately 80 yards toward the green. Fairway and bunkers shifted to the right, increasing angle of the dogleg.
No. 7, 360 yards in 1997, 450 yards in 2006
2002: Tee moved back 40-45 yards. Portion of fairway landing area regraded.
2006: Tee moved back 35-40 yards. Green re-grassed to create possible right-rear flagstick location. Trees added to both sides of the fairway.
No. 8, 535 yards in 1997, 570 yards in 2006
2002: Tee moved back 15-20 yards and shifted 10 yards to right. Fairway bunker reshaped and nearly doubled in size.
No. 9, 435 yards in 1997, 460 yards in 2006
2002: Tee moved back 25-30 yards.
No. 10, 485 yards in 1997, 495 yards in 2006
2002: Tee moved back 5-10 yards and shifted 5 yards to left.
No. 11, 455 yards in 1997, 505 yards in 2006
1999: Green, pond and bunker complex adjusted.
2002: Tee moved back 30-35 yards and shifted 5 yards to right. Portion of fairway landing area regraded.
2004: Thirty-six pine trees added to right side of fairway.
2006: Tee moved back 10-15 yards. Trees added to right side of fairway and fairway shifted to the left.
No. 13, 485 yards in 1997, 510 yards in 2006
2002: Tee moved back 20-25 yards.
2004: Green rebuilt and sub-surface heating and cooling system installed.
No. 14, 405 yards in 1997, 440 yards in 2006
2002: Tee moved back 30-35 yards.
No. 15, 500 yards in 1997, 530 yards in 2006
1999: Fairway mounds reduced and pine trees added to right and left.
2006: Tee moved back 30-35 yards and shifted approximately 20 yards to left.
No. 17, 400 yards in 1997, 440 yards in 2006
1999: Tee moved back 25 yards.
2006: Tee moved back 10-15 yards.
No. 18, 405 yards in 1997, 465 yards in 2006
2002: Tee moved back 55-60 yards and shifted 5 yards to right. Bunker complex adjusted, making bunkers approximately 10% larger. Trees added left of fairway bunkers. Green re-grassed and expanded to recover lost edges.
Source: 2006 Masters media guide
Larry Gude
Strung Out
Define 'mockery'...
...because I'm not seeing a mockery in the scoring.
The low front nine is a 30 with Miller in '75, Norman in '88 and Choi in '04.
Low back 9 is 29 with Calc in '92 and Toms in '98
Most under par for a tournament, 4 rounds, front nine is 12 with Venturi in 1960, Nicklaus in '65, Steve Jones in '90, Floyd in '92, Dimarco in '05.
Back nine is Tigers 16 in 1997.
The low is is still Nick Price from '86, tied by Norman in '96.
The low 72 is;
270 (70-66-65-69), Tiger Woods, 1997
271, Jack Nicklaus, 1965
271, Raymond Floyd, 1976
272, Tiger Woods, 2001
274, Ben Hogan, 1953
274, Ben Crenshaw, 1995
274, David Duval, 2001 (non-winner)
275, Seve Ballesteros, 1980
275, Fred Couples, 1992
275, Davis Love III, 1995 (non-winner)
275, Phil Mickelson, 2001 (non-winner)
276, Arnold Palmer, 1964
276, Jack Nicklaus, 1975
276, Tom Watson, 1977
276, Nick Faldo, 1996
276, Tiger Woods, 2002
276, Chris DiMarco, 2005 (non-winner)
276, Tiger Woods, 2005
Lotta Tiger, yeah, but, a lot of older scores too including Hogan at 274 in 1953.
I'm just saying that the scores do not validate the 'must change it' mindset.
We're gonna have a par or over winner this year because of a fairly normal, but not lately, dry spring and all those changes bearing their fangs. I mean, if Hogan could have found one stroke per round in '53, Tiger ties a 44 year old record in 1997. As it was, he only beat Jacks 32 year old one by 1.
It's not like average players are shooting record scores, or even close. The highest winner of all time was Snead and Burke at +1 in '54 and '56.
I don't know that people would be shooting much better this week at 7,000 or even 6,800 yards. Longer equipment means bigger misses too.
More stats from; http://www.masters.org/en_US/history/records/scoring.html
PAR OR BETTER, ENTIRE FIELD, ONE TOURNAMENT
Total Rounds
Most, 178, 1992
Fewest, 32, 1956
First Round
Most, 52, 1991
Fewest, 2, 1936
Second Round
Most, 54, 1992
Fewest, 1, 1954
Third Round
Most, 40, 1992
Fewest, 3, 1952, 1956
Fourth Round
Most, 37, 1968, 1992
Fewest, 2, 1956
Another point; In the late 90's, Tiger was hitting 9 iron into 15 once in awhile vs. Sarazens famous 4 wood. I see the fear there, but it's not bearing out in the scoring. 1997 was an unusual year in that it set a record for most eagles, 15, in the second round. The most in a tournament was 1991 and the all time eagle leaders are still Ray and Jack.
Then, lastly, look at the hole by hole all time field low average;
http://www.masters.org/en_US/history/records/alltimestats.html
If the changes saved the course, they saved it long before anything crazy happened. If equipment has done anything, it has made the all time highs a thing of the past, but that is better players overall and better overall conditions as well.
Your turn!
otter said:
...because I'm not seeing a mockery in the scoring.
The low front nine is a 30 with Miller in '75, Norman in '88 and Choi in '04.
Low back 9 is 29 with Calc in '92 and Toms in '98
Most under par for a tournament, 4 rounds, front nine is 12 with Venturi in 1960, Nicklaus in '65, Steve Jones in '90, Floyd in '92, Dimarco in '05.
Back nine is Tigers 16 in 1997.
The low is is still Nick Price from '86, tied by Norman in '96.
The low 72 is;
270 (70-66-65-69), Tiger Woods, 1997
271, Jack Nicklaus, 1965
271, Raymond Floyd, 1976
272, Tiger Woods, 2001
274, Ben Hogan, 1953
274, Ben Crenshaw, 1995
274, David Duval, 2001 (non-winner)
275, Seve Ballesteros, 1980
275, Fred Couples, 1992
275, Davis Love III, 1995 (non-winner)
275, Phil Mickelson, 2001 (non-winner)
276, Arnold Palmer, 1964
276, Jack Nicklaus, 1975
276, Tom Watson, 1977
276, Nick Faldo, 1996
276, Tiger Woods, 2002
276, Chris DiMarco, 2005 (non-winner)
276, Tiger Woods, 2005
Lotta Tiger, yeah, but, a lot of older scores too including Hogan at 274 in 1953.
I'm just saying that the scores do not validate the 'must change it' mindset.
We're gonna have a par or over winner this year because of a fairly normal, but not lately, dry spring and all those changes bearing their fangs. I mean, if Hogan could have found one stroke per round in '53, Tiger ties a 44 year old record in 1997. As it was, he only beat Jacks 32 year old one by 1.
It's not like average players are shooting record scores, or even close. The highest winner of all time was Snead and Burke at +1 in '54 and '56.
I don't know that people would be shooting much better this week at 7,000 or even 6,800 yards. Longer equipment means bigger misses too.
More stats from; http://www.masters.org/en_US/history/records/scoring.html
PAR OR BETTER, ENTIRE FIELD, ONE TOURNAMENT
Total Rounds
Most, 178, 1992
Fewest, 32, 1956
First Round
Most, 52, 1991
Fewest, 2, 1936
Second Round
Most, 54, 1992
Fewest, 1, 1954
Third Round
Most, 40, 1992
Fewest, 3, 1952, 1956
Fourth Round
Most, 37, 1968, 1992
Fewest, 2, 1956
Another point; In the late 90's, Tiger was hitting 9 iron into 15 once in awhile vs. Sarazens famous 4 wood. I see the fear there, but it's not bearing out in the scoring. 1997 was an unusual year in that it set a record for most eagles, 15, in the second round. The most in a tournament was 1991 and the all time eagle leaders are still Ray and Jack.
Then, lastly, look at the hole by hole all time field low average;
http://www.masters.org/en_US/history/records/alltimestats.html
If the changes saved the course, they saved it long before anything crazy happened. If equipment has done anything, it has made the all time highs a thing of the past, but that is better players overall and better overall conditions as well.
Your turn!
Larry Gude
Strung Out
These dag gone...
...Masters History shows are nearly impossible to watch. The names, the shots, the circumstances, Jesus H.
If anything, the legends grow.
...Masters History shows are nearly impossible to watch. The names, the shots, the circumstances, Jesus H.
If anything, the legends grow.
Otter
Nothing to see here
Larry Gude said:
Don't you think that the Masters being on the same course year after year after year helps to make the legends grow. Seeing Arnie in 1960 at 16 or Tiger on 16 now helps?
I see your points in your prior post, but with the improvement in equipment, length had to be added sooner or later to the course. Tiger doesn't really fit into my equation of reasons why yards needed to be added to Augusta, he's in a league of his own when it comes to the entire game. He's heads and shoulders above all the other players on tour.
Larry Gude
Strung Out
It would...
...if it was the same course! :cry: :cry:
otter said:
...if it was the same course! :cry: :cry:
Larry Gude
Strung Out
Struggle?
...how about bloodbath!?
I was just sitting here laughing at how brutal it is. Tomorrow will be easier pins, but, damn, throw in Sunday pressure. Apples said it best; "Most of the time, you're just hoping to get lucky to have the right club..." or to that effect.
This gonna be something to remember.
otter said:I just love watching the Pros' struggle.
...how about bloodbath!?
I was just sitting here laughing at how brutal it is. Tomorrow will be easier pins, but, damn, throw in Sunday pressure. Apples said it best; "Most of the time, you're just hoping to get lucky to have the right club..." or to that effect.
This gonna be something to remember.
Otter
Nothing to see here
Larry Gude said:...how about bloodbath!?
I was just sitting here laughing at how brutal it is. Tomorrow will be easier pins, but, damn, throw in Sunday pressure. Apples said it best; "Most of the time, you're just hoping to get lucky to have the right club..." or to that effect.
This gonna be something to remember.
Tiger by 4, another ho-hum.
Pete
Repete
I didn't go. My HS buddies wifes parents decided to go and they trump me. I really didn't want to drive 4 hours each way to stand in a crowd anyway, even though I am "Pete" and they would probably give me an honorary membership to Augusta National and a seat in the grandstand because of my win in the SOMD Classic in 2005.
