The New Congress

Larry Gude

Strung Out
Maynard...

...let's look at this strictly from the oil companies perspective for just minute, shall we?

If fossil fuels are a finite resource in terms of being the primary source of energy for human consumption wouldn't you expect to see oil companies starting to seriously position themselves for whatever the future of energy is going to be when oil no longer is available in sufficient quantities?

If a person hated the oil companies, wouldn't it be in the interest of that person to support getting to the end of oil as soon as possible and thus force the oil companies to no longer be in oil but also forced into something better than fossil fuels?

Following that thought process, wouldn't you not care who got the tax breaks or other incentives just as long as the desire to be getting off fossil fuels was being achieved? I think it is only obvious that energy companies are gonna stay in energy, whatever the source.

Now, from your viewpoint (as I see it) I am arguing that current leftist policies (leave oil in the ground) on domestic energy production are at odds with the stated goals of alternative energy sources and that if alternative sources really are the goal, then could you have any better friends than the oil companies?

We know that energy demand, whatever the source, is a given. You agree, yes? Therefore leftist policies that weaken domestic production force the demand to be met from foreign sources which tend to be rather unstable and vulnerable (Venezuela and the Middle east come quickly to mind) thereby causing unrest and fear at home. Leftists say “no blood for oil” and “no domestic drilling”; two goals that are entirely at odds with one another given energy demands and the current fact that plentiful oil makes it #1 for at least the near term, especially if it’s use is extended through conservation policies that delay the need to find alternatives. With me so far?

This has lead, if not directly, then rather substantially to the election of two figures, Reagan and W, because of foreign energy concerns, that you probably don't like. Yet, the left supports policies that, as much as anything else, ensured their election.

Had the left supported, through Jimmy Carters Presidency, aggressive use of domestic resources instead of putting on sweaters, turning down the thermostat and trying to get the Middle east pacified, then the fears of the Middle East (especially Iran) would have likely been allayed and Carter re-elected. Domestic oil production would have boomed the economy in terms of jobs and all those oil profits staying here instead of going abroad.

Had Clinton made Iraq settle into a profitable and stable regime of inspections and the attendant rewards of increased oil production sold to the world for good behavior (fairly clean inspections) blessed by the US, then the energy cost eruption initiated by oil concerns in the Middle East starting in Clintons last year may not have happened and that damn sure would have been worth a few more votes to Gore.
I never fully understand the “no blood for oil” and “no drilling” dichotomy on the left and what I do understand sometimes seems to me that the only consistent conspiracy is one in which the leaders of the left continually hand power over to the right simply by doing dumb things about a major issue that they could dominate.

Thoughts?
 

MGKrebs

endangered species
If fossil fuels are a finite resource in terms of being the primary source of energy for human consumption wouldn't you expect to see oil companies starting to seriously position themselves for whatever the future of energy is going to be when oil no longer is available in sufficient quantities?

Maybe they are. But in the meantime, oil prices going up are not really a bad thing for the oil companies. If their profits, like everybody else’s, are a percentage of cost, they make more money on less product.

We’re not really sure how much oil there is, but it’s safe to say that there is enough oil to last another 50 years at least, and maybe quite a while longer, before it becomes prohibitive to get to it. The question is, what if our access to existing oil is drastically cut off. That is a very volatile situation.

Developing the alternative sources, and building the infrastructure, and building/converting the vehicles is a massive job requiring many billions of dollars. I don’t think there is any way the oil companies are going to invest that kind of money as long as they think they have a reasonable chance at access to the oil that we already know about for the next couple of decades. And a little war in the middle east doesn’t really change that in the big picture. After all, this war would be all about them getting access to that oil.

If a person hated the oil companies, wouldn't it be in the interest of that person to support getting to the end of oil as soon as possible and thus force the oil companies to no longer be in oil but also forced into something better than fossil fuels?

Unlike conservatives, libs are able to manage more than one issue at a time. Hating oil companies is only #6 on the secret lib manifesto. Protecting the environment is higher up, so we don’t like to burn the fuel at all, domestic or foreign.

Following that thought process, wouldn't you not care who got the tax breaks or other incentives just as long as the desire to be getting off fossil fuels was being achieved? I think it is only obvious that energy companies are gonna stay in energy, whatever the source.

This is true. I just don’t want to see it rigged so that ONLY the oil companies get a chance at the perks. Free market and all.

Now, from your viewpoint (as I see it) I am arguing that current leftist policies (leave oil in the ground) on domestic energy production are at odds with the stated goals of alternative energy sources and that if alternative sources really are the goal, then could you have any better friends than the oil companies?

Not quite following this. If I haven’t answered this already, please rephrase for my Friday afternoon brain.

We know that energy demand, whatever the source, is a given. You agree, yes? Therefore leftist policies that weaken domestic production force the demand to be met from foreign sources which tend to be rather unstable and vulnerable (Venezuela and the Middle east come quickly to mind) thereby causing unrest and fear at home. Leftists say "no blood for oil" and "no domestic drilling"; two goals that are entirely at odds with one another given energy demands and the current fact that plentiful oil makes it #1 for at least the near term, especially if it’s use is extended through conservation policies that delay the need to find alternatives. With me so far?

From what I have read, there is not enough oil to found domestically to make much of a difference in the long term anyway. Secondly, conservation can make a big difference. When gas starts to get around $5.00 a gallon, I guess we’ll all buy into that. Third, the goal is to reduce oil dependency, period. Domestic or foreign. So I don’t think there is a philosophical contradiction. But in any case, I’m sure a lot of the same people oppose the war who also oppose ANWR drilling. But they are two completely separate issues- not connected. One is about environmental sense, and the other is about trying to avoid killing people so we can drive big cars.

For my part, NOT killing Arabs has a better chance of ensuring a steady supply of oil than killing them does.

Had the left supported, through Jimmy Carters Presidency, aggressive use of domestic resources instead of putting on sweaters, turning down the thermostat and trying to get the Middle east pacified, then the fears of the Middle East (especially Iran) would have likely been allayed and Carter re-elected. Domestic oil production would have boomed the economy in terms of jobs and all those oil profits staying here instead of going abroad.

That would have been a very short term solution, and a disaster. We don’t have enough of our own oil to last very long, so we would have to go get some more anyway. Second, you can’t just increase production overnight- it would have taken years. Then, even if you did, soon the oil starts to run out, domestic oil gets expensive, Arabs become our friends again with cheaper oil, so all those jobs go away, all that investment in production capacity sits idle, economy crashes. And we are left with derelict oil rigs in Yellowstone Park and Mt. Rushmore.

Had Clinton made Iraq settle into a profitable and stable regime of inspections and the attendant rewards of increased oil production sold to the world for good behavior (fairly clean inspections) blessed by the US, then the energy cost eruption initiated by oil concerns in the Middle East starting in Clintons last year may not have happened and that damn sure would have been worth a few more votes to Gore.

How does one "make" a lunatic become stable? I suppose Dub will show us. Old saddam’s going to be pretty stable very soon now!
 
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H

Heretic

Guest
The Resources are there

Not alot of people know this but the US has enough coal in its ground to dwarf the middle east oil supply, right now its just cheaper to go the oil route. Coal can be liquified and turned into gasoline fairly easily.

Natural Gas cars rule, in college my senior design project was to build a hybrid electric car and we used natural gas as our fuel. Using natural gas cost the equilivant of $0.40 cents/gallon. Everywhere there is coal there is natural gas and natural gas is fairly easy to make too.

For more exotic alternative fuels wind farms are ok but now enviromentalists are complaining about them ruining the landscape because they take up alot of area for the amount of power they generate. Hydroelectric is a great source that is taken advantage of fairly well in the Northwest but there is still tremendous potential in this energy source. Geothermal is also a viable source in some areas...I believe Iceland is powered entirely by geothermal energy.

Gasoline really should be about $3.50 a gallon if you take the price of gasoline in 1960 and account for inflation. The price of gasoline right now is a steal (not complaining really).

As for conservation I believe we can all play our part by driving a little less lead footed, keeping our cars in tune, realizing we dont need a tank sized SUV for two people, insulating your house well, etc etc. Every household in America could probably use 15% less energy without a lifestyle change, maybe more.

There is alot of money to be made in alternative fuels, but their use and developement could use a kick in the seat from the feds. The DOE has suffered cutbacks for years and could be so much more than it is right now. It needs to get more involved with the community, the schools, colleges, and industry to promote the use and developement of alternative energies.
 

kelley

New Member
Originally posted by Kain99
Well Kell.... Looks like your an instant hit! Keep up the good work girl! :smile:

Hell yeah! And I am no one hit wonder.

BTW, just because I'm a drunk college chick doesn't mean that you can take advantage of me...wait, yeah you can. LOL jp.
 
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