the real truth of our Christian heritage

[foodcritic]

John Adams Signer of the Declaration of Independence and Second President of the United States

t is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue.

(Source: John Adams, The Works of John Adams, Second President of the United States, Charles Francis Adams, editor (Boston: Little, Brown, 1854), Vol. IX, p. 401, to Zabdiel Adams on June 21, 1776.)

[W]e have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. . . . Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.

(Source: John Adams, The Works of John Adams, Second President of the United States, Charles Francis Adams, editor (Boston: Little, Brown, and Co. 1854), Vol. IX, p. 229, October 11, 1798.)

The moment the idea is admitted into society, that property is not as sacred as the laws of God, and that there is not a force of law and public justice to protect it, anarchy and tyranny commence. If "Thou shalt not covet," and "Thou shalt not steal," were not commandments of Heaven, they must be made inviolable precepts in every society, before it can be civilized or made free.

(Source: John Adams, The Works of John Adams, Second President of the United States, Charles Francis Adams, editor (Boston: Charles C. Little and James Brown, 1851), Vol. VI, p. 9.)

 

[UNA]

Wirelessly posted

1) quote our founding fathers all you want. It doesn't matter what they said rather what they wrote, particularly in our laws.

2) John Adams wasn't a Christian; so even if he'd wanted a more religiously based nation; it wouldn't have been your religion.

3) Ever heard of the "Alien and Sedition Acts" signed by President Adams? I don't think he's the best choice here...

4) you should have read my response to you on the other thread. Did you miss it?

 

[foodcritic]

Wirelessly posted

1) quote our founding fathers all you want. It doesn't matter what they said rather what they wrote, particularly in our laws.

2) John Adams wasn't a Christian; so even if he'd wanted a more religiously based nation; it wouldn't have been your religion.

3) Ever heard of the "Alien and Sedition Acts" signed by President Adams? I don't think he's the best choice here...

4) you should have read my response to you on the other thread. Did you miss it?

John Adams

SIGNER OF THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE; JUDGE; DIPLOMAT; ONE OF TWO SIGNERS OF THE BILL OF RIGHTS; SECOND PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES

The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity. I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.1

1.Thomas Jefferson, The Writings of Thomas Jefferson (Washington D. C.: The Thomas Jefferson Memorial Association, 1904), Vol. XIII, p. 292-294. In a letter from John Adams to Thomas Jefferson on June 28, 1813.(Return)

 

[Sonsie]

[W]e have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion.

This has proved it's self true more and more every year... crime, unwed mothers, and general sloth. The takers vote themselves more taxpayer money every cycle.

 

[foodcritic]

This has proved it's self true more and more every year... crime, unwed mothers, and general sloth. The takers vote themselves more taxpayer money every cycle.

Your very right. There has been a systamatic attempt to remove God from the public square. And we wonder why. Many of these things can directly be associated with the removal of God from the publik skools.

 

[UNA]

Wirelessly posted

1) quote our founding fathers all you want. It doesn't matter what they said rather what they wrote, particularly in our laws.

2) John Adams wasn't a Christian; so even if he'd wanted a more religiously based nation; it wouldn't have been your religion.

3) Ever heard of the "Alien and Sedition Acts" signed by President Adams? I don't think he's the best choice here...

4) you should have read my response to you on the other thread. Did you miss it?

John Adams

SIGNER OF THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE; JUDGE; DIPLOMAT; ONE OF TWO SIGNERS OF THE BILL OF RIGHTS; SECOND PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES

The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity. I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.1

1.Thomas Jefferson, The Writings of Thomas Jefferson (Washington D. C.: The Thomas Jefferson Memorial Association, 1904), Vol. XIII, p. 292-294. In a letter from John Adams to Thomas Jefferson on June 28, 1813.(Return)

my fault! John Adams was Unitarianism. My mistake. It was Thomas Jefferson, Ben Franklin and (I think) James Madison who were the non-Christians. I was thinking Adams was on that list.

Care to address the other points I made though?

 

[foodcritic]

Wirelessly posted
my fault! John Adams was Unitarianism. My mistake. It was Thomas Jefferson, Ben Franklin and (I think) James Madison who were the non-Christians. I was thinking Adams was on that list.

Care to address the other points I made though?

No. Our kids are really be indoctrinated by the secularists.

Madison even desired that all public officials - including Bradford - would declare openly and publicly their Christian beliefs and testimony:

I have sometimes thought there could not be a stronger testimony in favor of religion or against temporal enjoyments, even the most rational and manly, than for men who occupy the most honorable and gainful departments and [who] are rising in reputation and wealth, publicly to declare their unsatisfactoriness by becoming fervent advocates in the cause of Christ; and I wish you may give in your evidence in this way. [2]

Second, Madison was a member of the committee that authored the 1776 Virginia Bill of Rights and approved of its clause declaring that:

It is the mutual duty of all to practice Christian forbearance, love, and charity toward each other. [3] (emphasis added)

[2] Letter of Madison to William Bradford (September 25, 1773), in 1 James Madison, The Papers of James Madison 66 (William T. Hutchinson ed., Illinois: University of Chicago Press 1962).

[3] The Proceedings of the Convention of Delegates, Held at the Capitol in the City of Williamsburg, in the Colony of Virginia, on Monday the 6th of May, 1776, 103 (Williamsburg: Alexander Purdie 1776) (Madison on the Committee on May 16, 1776; the "Declaration of Rights" passed June 12, 1776).

 

[UNA]

Wirelessly posted

my fault! John Adams was Unitarianism. My mistake. It was Thomas Jefferson, Ben Franklin and (I think) James Madison who were the non-Christians. I was thinking Adams was on that list.

Care to address the other points I made though?

No. Our kids are really be indoctrinated by the secularists.

Madison even desired that all public officials - including Bradford - would declare openly and publicly their Christian beliefs and testimony:

I have sometimes thought there could not be a stronger testimony in favor of religion or against temporal enjoyments, even the most rational and manly, than for men who occupy the most honorable and gainful departments and [who] are rising in reputation and wealth, publicly to declare their unsatisfactoriness by becoming fervent advocates in the cause of Christ; and I wish you may give in your evidence in this way. [2]

Second, Madison was a member of the committee that authored the 1776 Virginia Bill of Rights and approved of its clause declaring that:

It is the mutual duty of all to practice Christian forbearance, love, and charity toward each other. [3] (emphasis added)

[2] Letter of Madison to William Bradford (September 25, 1773), in 1 James Madison, The Papers of James Madison 66 (William T. Hutchinson ed., Illinois: University of Chicago Press 1962).

[3] The Proceedings of the Convention of Delegates, Held at the Capitol in the City of Williamsburg, in the Colony of Virginia, on Monday the 6th of May, 1776, 103 (Williamsburg: Alexander Purdie 1776) (Madison on the Committee on May 16, 1776; the "Declaration of Rights" passed June 12, 1776).

Like I said, I wasn't sure about Madison, I did a quick google search and couldn't find his religious affiliation. Why don't you try to debate te issue on your own rather than spewing quotes? Also, why do you continue to ignore the points I made on the other thread? Can't you find an appropriate quote to dispute me? Maybe you should look up *both* of te uses for the word 'indoctrination'. It seems to be the religious side that teaches people not to criticize their teachings. :shrug:

 

[foodcritic]

Wirelessly posted
Like I said, I wasn't sure about Madison, I did a quick google search and couldn't find his religious affiliation. Why don't you try to debate te issue on your own rather than spewing quotes? Also, why do you continue to ignore the points I made on the other thread? Can't you find an appropriate quote to dispute me? Maybe you should look up *both* of te uses for the word 'indoctrination'. It seems to be the religious side that teaches people not to criticize their teachings. :shrug:

list keeps getting smaller....
I don't want to hijack the thread. quotes and citations are what are called evidence (at least to me and most reasonable persons). You have yet to provide any.

 

[foodcritic]

Wirelessly posted
my fault! John Adams was Unitarianism. My mistake. It was Thomas Jefferson, Ben Franklin and (I think) James Madison who were the non-Christians. I was thinking Adams was on that list.

Care to address the other points I made though?

Benjamin Franklin:

“In the beginning of the contest with Great Britain, when we were sensible of danger, we had daily prayer in this room for the Divine protection. Our prayers, sir were heard, and they were graciously answered . . . I therefore beg leave to move–that henceforth prayers imploring the assistance of Heaven, and its blessings on our deliberations, be held in this Assembly every morning before we proceed to business.”

James Madison, The Papers of James Madison, Henry D. Gilpin, editor (Washington: Langtree & O’Sullivan, 1840), Vol. II, p. 984-986, June 28, 1787.

“We have been assured, Sir, in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this; and I also believe that without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel.”

James Madison, The Papers of James Madison, Henry D. Gilpin, editor (Washington: Langtree & O’Sullivan, 1840), Vol. II, p. 985, June 28, 1787.

 

[foodcritic]

Wirelessly posted



my fault! John Adams was Unitarianism. My mistake. It was Thomas Jefferson, Ben Franklin and (I think) James Madison who were the non-Christians. I was thinking Adams was on that list.

Care to address the other points I made though?

TJ was no evangelical in the traditional sense. But a religious man he was.

Thomas Jefferson

“And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis (really?), a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the gift of God?(that does not happen in skool today) That they are not to be violated but with his wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that his justice cannot sleep forever.”

Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virgina (Philadelphia: Matthew Carey, 1794), Query XVIII, p. 237. MS-176.

 

[UNA]

Wirelessly posted

Wirelessly posted
Like I said, I wasn't sure about Madison, I did a quick google search and couldn't find his religious affiliation. Why don't you try to debate te issue on your own rather than spewing quotes? Also, why do you continue to ignore the points I made on the other thread? Can't you find an appropriate quote to dispute me? Maybe you should look up *both* of te uses for the word 'indoctrination'. It seems to be the religious side that teaches people not to criticize their teachings. :shrug:

list keeps getting smaller....
I don't want to hijack the thread. quotes and citations are what are called evidence (at least to me and most reasonable persons). You have yet to provide any.

From the other thread;

If the founding fathers wanted to state that we were a Christian nation (or one founded on Christian principles) they would have said "We the people of the United States in a firm belief of the being and perfection of the one living and true God, the creator and supreme Governor of the World, in His universal providence and the authority of His laws... do ordain, etc." rather than what we have now (what they originally and intentionally wrote). (The above quote is actually from William Williams of the Constitutional Congress. He proposed this as the preamble...now why would he have done that if we were always a Christian nation?)

 

[UNA]

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Wirelessly posted



my fault! John Adams was Unitarianism. My mistake. It was Thomas Jefferson, Ben Franklin and (I think) James Madison who were the non-Christians. I was thinking Adams was on that list.

Care to address the other points I made though?

TJ was no evangelical in the traditional sense. But a religious man he was.

Thomas Jefferson

“And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis (really?), a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the gift of God?(that does not happen in skool today) That they are not to be violated but with his wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that his justice cannot sleep forever.”

Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virgina (Philadelphia: Matthew Carey, 1794), Query XVIII, p. 237. MS-176.

I never said he wasn't religious, just that he wasn't a Christian. He was a deist. My point is that our founding fathers weren't ALL Christians.

Your copy and paste marathon (though possible applicable) is by no means a sign of an opinion developed independently of your indoctrination (that is your inclination to avoid criticism of what you've been taught). You've yet to display the ability to defend your position rater you've proven your google skills. 

Quotes or not, answer me this:

If American has always been a Christian nation;

- why did William Williams propose his more 'Godly' version of the preamble?

- why was the an initiative in Virginia to change the wording of Article VI to say that "no other religious test shall ever be required than a belief in the one only true God, who is the rewarder of the good, and the punisher of the evil" 

- why did Maryland delegate Luther Martin say "there were some members so unfashionable as to think that... it would be at least decent to hold out some distinction between the professors of Christianity and downright infidelity or paganism."

There are countless examples of Christian attempts to 'Christian-ize' the Constitution and our law prior to the 1950's. It's was during that time they decided to begin claiming that America had *always* been a Christian nation.

Please explain *in your own words* you may use quotations to back up only what you say, not as the response itself.

 

[Cheeky1]

Merry Christmas everyone!

 

[foodcritic]

Wirelessly posted
I never said he wasn't religious, just that he wasn't a Christian. He was a deist.#My point is that our founding fathers weren't ALL Christians.

Your copy and paste marathon (though possible applicable) is by no means a sign of an opinion developed independently of your indoctrination (that is your inclination to avoid criticism of what you've been taught). You've yet to display the ability to defend your position rater you've proven your google skills.#

Quotes or not, answer me this:

If American has always been a Christian nation;

- why did#William Williams propose his more 'Godly' version of the preamble?

- why was the an initiative in Virginia to#change the wording of Article VI to say that "no other religious test shall ever be required than a belief in the one only true God, who is the rewarder of the good, and the punisher of the evil"#

- why did#Maryland delegate Luther Martin say "there were some members so unfashionable as to think that... it would be at least decent to hold out some distinction between the professors of Christianity and downright infidelity or paganism."

There are countless examples of Christian attempts to 'Christian-ize' the Constitution and our law prior to the 1950's. It's was during that time they decided to begin claiming that America had *always* been a Christian nation.

Please explain *in your own words* you may use quotations to back up only what you say, not as the response itself.

So you offer no evidence and use quotes to tell me I should stop quoting the founders.

 

[foodcritic]

Merry Christmas everyone!

Merry Christmas. Remember the real reason for the season.

 

[UNA]

Wirelessly posted

Wirelessly posted
I never said he wasn't religious, just that he wasn't a Christian. He was a deist.#My point is that our founding fathers weren't ALL Christians.

Your copy and paste marathon (though possible applicable) is by no means a sign of an opinion developed independently of your indoctrination (that is your inclination to avoid criticism of what you've been taught). You've yet to display the ability to defend your position rater you've proven your google skills.#

Quotes or not, answer me this:

If American has always been a Christian nation;

- why did#William Williams propose his more 'Godly' version of the preamble?

- why was the an initiative in Virginia to#change the wording of Article VI to say that "no other religious test shall ever be required than a belief in the one only true God, who is the rewarder of the good, and the punisher of the evil"#

- why did#Maryland delegate Luther Martin say "there were some members so unfashionable as to think that... it would be at least decent to hold out some distinction between the professors of Christianity and downright infidelity or paganism."

There are countless examples of Christian attempts to 'Christian-ize' the Constitution and our law prior to the 1950's. It's was during that time they decided to begin claiming that America had *always* been a Christian nation.

Please explain *in your own words* you may use quotations to back up only what you say, not as the response itself.

So you offer no evidence and use quotes to tell me I should stop quoting the founders.

You threw quotes with little to no analysis from you, no thought. You got on me for not quoting people. So I quoted people and provided some specific history along with my own analysis. Now that's NOT what you wanted? I'm sorry, do I need to keep it simpler for you?

Why are you avoiding addressing the points I'm making? Please!!! Think about the issue at hand and come to your own conclusion! Even if you still come to the - incorrect - opinion that we're a Christian nation; at least you'd have thought about it for yourself rather than your copy and paste! (...aren't you one of the many that get on 'other' forumites that copy and paste and run...?)

 

[foodcritic]

Wirelessly posted

You threw quotes with little to no analysis from you, no thought. You got on me for not quoting people. So I quoted people and provided some specific history along with my own analysis. Now that's NOT what you wanted? I'm sorry, do I need to keep it simpler for you?

Why are you avoiding addressing the points I'm making? Please!!! Think about the issue at hand and come to your own conclusion! Even if you still come to the - incorrect - opinion that we're a Christian nation; at least you'd have thought about it for yourself rather than your copy and paste! (...aren't you one of the many that get on 'other' forumites that copy and paste and run...?)

Ok. We are having a discussion on what the founders intended. Their quotes are necessary to make that determination. You have not quoted anyone since you have not provided any citation for anything you presented. I on the other hand have. Copy and past is acceptable in the proper context (this being one) that is needed for demonstration.

As far as you label of "Christian Nation". That may have different meanings to different people. This country is defined by the Judeo/Christian influence of the bible in our laws and ability to self govern. Our founders expected our leaders to be Christians REGARDLESS OF DENOMINATION. That is the key. That was why there was not "religious test for office" so that one sect.....of Christianity would be established. They knew from where they came from what happened when a specific church governed people.

Daniel Webster on the Mass. Constitution:

I believe I have stated the substance of the reasons which appeared to have weight with the committee. For my own part, finding this declaration in the constitution and hearing of no practical evil resulting from it, I should have been willing to retain it unless considerable objection had been expressed to it. If others were satisfied with it, I should be. I do not consider it, however, essential to retain it as there is another part of the constitution which recognizes, in the fullest manner, the benefits which civil society derives from those Christian institutions which cherish piety, morality, and religion. I am clearly of opinion that we should not strike out of the constitution all recognition of the Christian religion. I am desirous, in so solemn a transaction as the establishment of a constitution, that we should keep in it an expression of our respect and attachment to Christianity - not, indeed, to any of its peculiar forms(denomination) but to its general principles.

(Source: Daniel Webster, The Writings and Speeches of Daniel Webster, (Boston: Little, Brown, & Company, 1903), Vol. III, pp. 3-7.)

 

[Merlin99]

So you offer no evidence and use quotes to tell me I should stop quoting the founders.

OK I'll enter this into evidence http://www.usconstitution.net/const.pdf, no where in there does it say we have a judeo-christian government, but it does have this line

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

This sound to me like they thought the matter over and came to the rational conclusion that religion and politics don't mix.

 

[Misfit]

You’ve made baby Jesus and I cry. I can't believe I just read all of this.....