The True Churh is the Catholic Church, of course.

[Radiant1]

The True Church is the body of believers in Jesus Christ; it has nothing to do with any denomination.

I assume by body of believers you are referring to the "Body of Christ" as referenced in scripture? Perhaps it is not a case of either/or, but both/and ... as in, more than one meaning to "Body of Christ". I can think of 3 offhand. Far be it for me to limit God's Word. Just a thought.

For the record, I think denominations and their subsequent -ism is a tragedy.

Are we to assume that this story is merely to tell us what a good fisherman Peter was? Why is the giving of the prophetic keys of Isaiah sandwiched between these two stories of Peter: in the first being sustained in faith by Jesus, and in the second speaking for Jesus and paying His taxes?
Please don't tell me why my understanding is so wrong if you're not willing to tell me what I should get from this beyond the literal.

Does Scripture have one meaning, the literal? Is there more to each passage than the obvious?

Awaiting Starman's response.

 

[itsbob]

I've mentioned this on several occasions and provided passages from Acts to support it. When Jesus was ministering on earth he had not yet established His Church and this passage substantiates this:



The first Church established was called the "Way". Look it up in Acts.

So what you are saying is, other than Judaism Jesus was not baptized in any church.. And if that's good enough for Jesus, it should be good enough for EVERYone..

If not for A church, what was the purpose of Christ's baptism?

 

[Radiant1]

The first Church established was called the "Way". Look it up in Acts.

You're right. It wasn't called Catholic until much later. That doesn't negate that it is one in the same.

However, if you don't believe the Catholic Church is The Way, what happened to The Way? Did the gates of hell prevail? Was Jesus a liar? Did it's members go underground until the Reformation?

Have you ever heard of the Didache (circa 1st c.)? Fascinating read. I encourage you to check it out.

 

[itsbob]

You're right. It wasn't called Catholic until much later. That doesn't negate that it is one in the same.

However, if you don't believe the Catholic Church is The Way, what happened to The Way? Did the gates of hell prevail? Was Jesus a liar? Did it's members go underground until the Reformation?

Have you ever heard of the Didache (circa 1st c.)? Fascinating read. I encourage you to check it out.

Read the Book of Mormon and you will find your answer.. and it isn't the Catholic Church..

There was a restoration of Christ's church on this planet, and the Catholic Church in no way shape or form closely resembles it.

 

[PsyOps]

So what you are saying is, other than Judaism Jesus was not baptized in any church.. And if that's good enough for Jesus, it should be good enough for EVERYone..

If not for A church, what was the purpose of Christ's baptism?

I don't think you've ever seen me argue that baptism needed to be in any church. John the Baptist baptized Jesus out in the wilderness, in the Jordan River. So no, he was not baptized in any church. According to the Bible He was not baptized in the name of any church.

 

[PsyOps]

You're right. It wasn't called Catholic until much later. That doesn't negate that it is one in the same.

However, if you don't believe the Catholic Church is The Way, what happened to The Way? Did the gates of hell prevail? Was Jesus a liar? Did it's members go underground until the Reformation?

Have you ever heard of the Didache (circa 1st c.)? Fascinating read. I encourage you to check it out.

I find this to be a pointless argument that the belief that the Catholic Church was the first Church, therefore it is the only valid church to represent the Christian faith. Karl Benz invented the first combustion engine automobile. Does that mean that every automobile created after that is not a valid automobile? Christ talked about the many parts of his body, each having its purpose. I happen to think he was talking about His Church and all the denominations. They all serve their purpose in bringing people to Christ. Nearly all of them have lost their way in serving the core tenets of Christ. But it’s the people that make up those churches. It’s up to each individual to find the way to God. If it strays outside of the basic precept of John 3:16 then you may want to reexamine what you really believe. But, it’s not up to me.

I gave you the first REAL Christian Church; you want to spin that around to believe that it eventually became the Catholic Church, that’s fine. I am not Catholic and you will lose your argument with me trying to convince me that the only way to God’s paradise is through the Catholic Church simply because it was the first established Christian Church.

 

[libby]

Does anyone here think it would be productive to examine early church fathers, that is, their writings, to see what they believed? Some of them were directly taught by the Apostles. Seeing how they understood various doctrines could be eye-opening.

 

[PsyOps]

Does anyone here think it would be productive to examine early church fathers, that is, their writings, to see what they believed? Some of them were directly taught by the Apostles. Seeing how they understood various doctrines could be eye-opening.

Begin.

 

[toppick08]

When Heaven comes down.....

 

[ItalianScallion]

Does anyone here think it would be productive to examine early church fathers, that is, their writings, to see what they believed? Some of them were directly taught by the Apostles. Seeing how they understood various doctrines could be eye-opening.

Uh, what''s wrong with what Jesus, Paul, John and the other 38 Bible authors said?????

 

[Highlander]

Does anyone here think it would be productive to examine early church fathers, that is, their writings, to see what they believed? Some of them were directly taught by the Apostles. Seeing how they understood various doctrines could be eye-opening.

As I've been told before, there are two things you shouldn't discuss in a group of people you don't know very well....Politics and Religion. I was raised Catholic and still Catholic. I am raising my kids to be Catholic and I am proud to be Catholic.

To hear others talk about Catholics not being saved and will be sorry , and another who is convinced some unknown church called the way was first all sounds ridiculous to me but when it comes down to it, it all makes me feel better that I am a Catholic. The next thing you know people will make up a religion based on the idea that aliens were involved in religion.

Believe what you will but when it comes down to it, you don't want to hear what I believe and I don't want to hear what you believe. So......get over yourself BACs. As I've said before, you DON'T have all the answers. It's all in your head!

 

[toppick08]

I'm proud to be a Methodist.......:shrug:

 

[Radiant1]

I find this to be a pointless argument that the belief that the Catholic Church was the first Church, therefore it is the only valid church to represent the Christian faith. Karl Benz invented the first combustion engine automobile. Does that mean that every automobile created after that is not a valid automobile? Christ talked about the many parts of his body, each having its purpose. I happen to think he was talking about His Church and all the denominations. They all serve their purpose in bringing people to Christ. Nearly all of them have lost their way in serving the core tenets of Christ. But it’s the people that make up those churches. It’s up to each individual to find the way to God. If it strays outside of the basic precept of John 3:16 then you may want to reexamine what you really believe. But, it’s not up to me.

I gave you the first REAL Christian Church; you want to spin that around to believe that it eventually became the Catholic Church, that’s fine. I am not Catholic and you will lose your argument with me trying to convince me that the only way to God’s paradise is through the Catholic Church simply because it was the first established Christian Church.

Psy, it seems you went off on a tangent regarding things that were not said nor implied regarding validity and the only way to God.

My only point to you is that your negation of all denominations is a negation of The Way (the REAL Christian Church) that you profess.

If denominations (Catholic, Baptist, Lutheran, Methodist, etc.) are made up of people (i.e. believers), and these believers make up the Body of Christ (I believe this too btw), then how can this Body of Christ have, as you say, "lost their way"? Would this not mean that the gates of hell did prevail against it (the Church, The Way) in contradiction to what Jesus states in Matthew 16:18? You must think carefully about this lest you inadvertently call Jesus a liar, and I know you don't want to do that.

I'm not out to convert you to Catholicism. Your journey is your own. I merely give you rational food for thought, and our discussion can end here. I look forward to viewing your dialogue with Libby on the early Church Fathers.

 

[Kain99]

Psy, it seems you went off on a tangent regarding things that were not said nor implied regarding validity and the only way to God.

My only point to you is that your negation of all denominations is a negation of The Way (the REAL Christian Church) that you profess.

If denominations (Catholic, Baptist, Lutheran, Methodist, etc.) are made up of people (i.e. believers), and these believers make up the Body of Christ (I believe this too btw), then how can this Body of Christ have, as you say, "lost their way"? Would this not mean that the gates of hell did prevail against it (the Church, The Way) in contradiction to what Jesus states in Matthew 16:18? You must think carefully about this lest you inadvertently call Jesus a liar, and I know you don't want to do that.

I'm not out to convert you to Catholicism. Your journey is your own. I merely give you rational food for thought, and our discussion can end here. I look forward to viewing your dialogue with Libby on the early Church Fathers.

Either my three beers made me drunk as a skunk, or you just type out a tangent.

Seeing I'm a genius, and your post made no sense... I suggest you rework the argument.

Going to bed... Love like my sister... Night

 

[Radiant1]

Uh, what''s wrong with what Jesus, Paul, John and the other 38 Bible authors said?????

Absolutely nothing, but what is wrong with examining what the very early Christians believed and were taught?

Either my three beers made me drunk as a skunk, or you just type out a tangent.

Seeing I'm a genius, and your post made no sense... I suggest you rework the argument.

Going to bed... Love like my sister... Night

Sleep off the beers genius.

 

[ItalianScallion]

My only point to you is that your negation of all denominations is a negation of The Way (the REAL Christian Church) that you profess.

If denominations (Catholic, Baptist, Lutheran, Methodist, etc.) are made up of people (i.e. believers), and these believers make up the Body of Christ (I believe this too btw), then how can this Body of Christ have, as you say, "lost their way"? Would this not mean that the gates of hell did prevail against it (the Church, The Way) in contradiction to what Jesus states in Matthew 16:18? You must think carefully about this lest you inadvertently call Jesus a liar, and I know you don't want to do that.

Radiant1, think about how all this happened. Jesus started His church with a group of Apostles. Somewhere, after them, someone disagreed with some of their beliefs and branched off in a denomination as Martin Luther did. This started the chain of divisions in the church called denominations.

Absolutely nothing, but what is wrong with examining what the very early Christians believed and were taught?

Uh, sweetheart, these WERE the early Christians...the earliest ones. Acts 11 v 26 says: "the disciples were first called Christians at Antioch" but before that they were called The Way. Same people, different name.

 

[Starman3000m]

Absolutely nothing, but what is wrong with examining what the very early Christians believed and were taught?

Sleep off the beers genius.

The first-century believers kept it simple: believe in the Lord Jesus Christ alone for Salvation and Eternal Life as He taught. The early church did not teach nor advocate what Rome came along later to teach and use as methods to convert pagans to the Vatican-led Roman Catholicism:

(excerpt)

I. ROME’ S CHURCH TRADITION

A. Some Roman Catholic Heresies and Inventions, and the Dates of their Adoption:

1. Prayers for the dead; about 300
2. Making the sign of the cross; 300
3. Wax candles; about 320
4. Veneration of angels and dead saints, and use of images; 375
5. The Mass as a daily celebration; 394
6. Beginning of the exaltation of Mary, the term “Mother of God” first applied to her by the Council of Ephesus; 431
7. Priests began to dress differently from laymen; 500
8. Extreme Unction; 526
9. The doctrine of Purgatory, established by Gregory I; 593
10. Latin Language, used in prayer and worship, imposed by Gregory I; 600
11. Prayers directed to Mary, dead saints and angels; about 600
12. Title of pope, or universal bishop, given to Boniface III by emperor Phocas; 610
13. Kissing the pope s foot, began with pope Constantine; 709
14. Temporal power of the popes, conferred by Pepin, king of France; 750
15. Worship of the cross, images and relics, authorized in; 786
16. Holy water, mixed with a pinch of salt and blessed by a priest; 850
17. Worship of St. Joseph; 890
18. College of Cardinals established; 927
19. Baptism of bells, instituted by pope John XIV; 965
20. Canonization of dead saints, first by pope John XV; 995
21. Fasting of Fridays and during lent; 998
22. The Mass, developed gradually as a sacrifice, attendance made obligatory in the 11th century
23. Celibacy of the priesthood, decreed by pope Gregory VII (Hildebrand); 1079
24. The Rosary, mechanical praying with beads, invented by Peter the Hermit; 1090
25. The Inquisition, instituted by the Council of Verona; 1184
26. Sale of Indulgences; 1190
27. Transubstantiation, proclaimed by pope Innocent III; 1215
28. Auricular Confession of sins to a priest instead of to God, instituted by pope Innocent III, in Lateran Council; 1215
29. Adoration of the wafer (Host), decreed by pope Honorius III; 1220
30. Bible forbidden to laymen, placed on the Index of Forbidden Books by the Council of Valencia; 1229
31. The Scapular, invented by Simon Stock, an English monk; 1287
32. Cup forbidden to the people at communion by Council of Constance; 1414
33. Purgatory proclaimed as a dogma by the Council of Florence; 1438
34. The doctrine of Seven Sacraments affirmed; 1439
35. The Ave Maria (part of the last half was completed 50 years later and approved by pope Sixtus V at the end of the 16th century); 1508
36. Jesuit order founded by Loyola; 1534
37. Tradition declared of equal authority with the Bible by the Council of Trent; 1545
38. Apocryphal books added to the Bible by the Council of Trent; 1546
39. Creed of pope Pius IV imposed as the official creed; 1560
40. Immaculate Conception of the Virgin Mary, proclaimed by pope Pius IX; 1854
41. Syllabus of Errors, proclaimed by pope Pius IX, and ratified by the Vatican Council; condemned freedom of religion, conscience, speech, press, and scientific discoveries which are disapproved by the Roman Church; asserted the pope s temporal authority over all civil rulers; 1864
42. Infallibility of the pope in matters of faith and morals, proclaimed by the Vatican Council; 1870
43. Public Schools condemned by Pope Pius XI; 1930
44. Assumption of the Virgin Mary (bodily ascension into heaven shortly after her death), proclaimed by Pope Pius XII; 1950

B. Add to these many others: monks, nuns, monasteries, convents, forty days lent, holy week, Palm Sunday, Ash Wednesday, All Saints Day, Candlemas, fish day, meat days, incense, holy oil, holy palms, Christopher medals, charms, novenas, and others.

Source:
The Roman Catholic Church of the Middle Ages


As ItalianScallion mentioned, it didn't take long for disagreements to set in which has resulted in the diverse formation of denominational sects. The religious leaders became prideful and power hungry and began to pervert the simplicity of Christ's message - even introducing a different Jesus to fit their own teaching. New rules and regulations were imposed by misguided leaders which placed followers back into religious bondage. This then led them away (as it does today) from the True Message of Salvation that Jesus taught.

Galatians, Chapter 1:
6: I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8: But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9: As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
10: For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.

 

[Radiant1]

Radiant1, think about how all this happened. Jesus started His church with a group of Apostles. Somewhere, after them, someone disagreed with some of their beliefs and branched off in a denomination as Martin Luther did. This started the chain of divisions in the church called denominations.

Branching off from the Aspostolic faith began with Martin Luther, but no matter, what's your point?

I don't like denominations either, but unlike PsyOps I do believe that all are Christian and follow John 3:16 (Psy's required precept), and all make the Body of Christ.

Psy states church is made of believers, believers are Body of Christ, church/Body of Christ lost it's way. This is a conundrum regarding Mt 16:18. I'm pointing out the logical conclusion to his way of thinking. But hey, it's not my issue to work out. :shrug:

Uh, sweetheart, these WERE the early Christians...the earliest ones. Acts 11 v 26 says: "the disciples were first called Christians at Antioch" but before that they were called The Way. Same people, different name.

Exactly. The Way---> called Christians---> called Catholic. They are one and the same. To claim differently is to disregard basic history.

Ignatius and Polycarp were both taught by the apostle John. Clement was taught by the apostles Peter, Paul and Linus. Surely they are followers of The Way, yes?

 

[libby]

The first-century believers kept it simple: believe in the Lord Jesus Christ alone for Salvation and Eternal Life as He taught. The early church did not teach nor advocate what Rome came along later to teach and use as methods to convert pagans to the Vatican-led Roman Catholicism:

(excerpt)

I. ROME’ S CHURCH TRADITION

A. Some Roman Catholic Heresies and Inventions, and the Dates of their Adoption:

1. Prayers for the dead; about 300
2. Making the sign of the cross; 300
3. Wax candles; about 320
4. Veneration of angels and dead saints, and use of images; 375
5. The Mass as a daily celebration; 394
6. Beginning of the exaltation of Mary, the term “Mother of God” first applied to her by the Council of Ephesus; 431
7. Priests began to dress differently from laymen; 500
8. Extreme Unction; 526
9. The doctrine of Purgatory, established by Gregory I; 593
10. Latin Language, used in prayer and worship, imposed by Gregory I; 600
11. Prayers directed to Mary, dead saints and angels; about 600
12. Title of pope, or universal bishop, given to Boniface III by emperor Phocas; 610
13. Kissing the pope s foot, began with pope Constantine; 709
14. Temporal power of the popes, conferred by Pepin, king of France; 750
15. Worship of the cross, images and relics, authorized in; 786
16. Holy water, mixed with a pinch of salt and blessed by a priest; 850
17. Worship of St. Joseph; 890
18. College of Cardinals established; 927
19. Baptism of bells, instituted by pope John XIV; 965
20. Canonization of dead saints, first by pope John XV; 995
21. Fasting of Fridays and during lent; 998
22. The Mass, developed gradually as a sacrifice, attendance made obligatory in the 11th century
23. Celibacy of the priesthood, decreed by pope Gregory VII (Hildebrand); 1079
24. The Rosary, mechanical praying with beads, invented by Peter the Hermit; 1090
25. The Inquisition, instituted by the Council of Verona; 1184
26. Sale of Indulgences; 1190
27. Transubstantiation, proclaimed by pope Innocent III; 1215
28. Auricular Confession of sins to a priest instead of to God, instituted by pope Innocent III, in Lateran Council; 1215
29. Adoration of the wafer (Host), decreed by pope Honorius III; 1220
30. Bible forbidden to laymen, placed on the Index of Forbidden Books by the Council of Valencia; 1229
31. The Scapular, invented by Simon Stock, an English monk; 1287
32. Cup forbidden to the people at communion by Council of Constance; 1414
33. Purgatory proclaimed as a dogma by the Council of Florence; 1438
34. The doctrine of Seven Sacraments affirmed; 1439
35. The Ave Maria (part of the last half was completed 50 years later and approved by pope Sixtus V at the end of the 16th century); 1508
36. Jesuit order founded by Loyola; 1534
37. Tradition declared of equal authority with the Bible by the Council of Trent; 1545
38. Apocryphal books added to the Bible by the Council of Trent; 1546
39. Creed of pope Pius IV imposed as the official creed; 1560
40. Immaculate Conception of the Virgin Mary, proclaimed by pope Pius IX; 1854
41. Syllabus of Errors, proclaimed by pope Pius IX, and ratified by the Vatican Council; condemned freedom of religion, conscience, speech, press, and scientific discoveries which are disapproved by the Roman Church; asserted the pope s temporal authority over all civil rulers; 1864
42. Infallibility of the pope in matters of faith and morals, proclaimed by the Vatican Council; 1870
43. Public Schools condemned by Pope Pius XI; 1930
44. Assumption of the Virgin Mary (bodily ascension into heaven shortly after her death), proclaimed by Pope Pius XII; 1950


You spend so much time shooting off your anti-Catholic bias that you don't bother to stop and listen to what the church really teaches, and why. Very few of these have anything to do with doctrine, and therefore it's just a distraction.
Since I can't have anyone here thinking that I am avoiding a challenge, I will only answer questions that interest PsyOps, or someone else who wants to dialogue.
On to the ECF's.

 

[Radiant1]

The first-century believers kept it simple: believe in the Lord Jesus Christ alone for Salvation and Eternal Life as He taught.

That and more. You obviously don't mind reading Christian writing outside of Scripture. I encourage you to take a good look at what those 1st century believers had to say. Surely you wouldn't be in disagreement with them as simple as it is.