Training Collars

[getbent]

We never used it to punish him. He never acted like he didn't trust us afterwards and he went back to being his happy go lucky self after we immediately comforted him. I do believe as you do that they have their place. We didn't just randomly go out and by one for the hell of it. We did research and felt at the time it would help along with the other training. The only thing we have now is an invisible fence for the female because she can and will jump over our chain link fence.

 

[jp2854]

I am sorry but I don't think that is funny at all, kinda sad really.

I agree with you that is why i never used a shock collar on bruno. I personally think they are inhumane.

 

[TurboK9]

I agree with you that is why i never used a shock collar on bruno. I personally think they are inhumane.

I always find it interesting when I hear people say this (believe me JP you aren't the only one, and I'm not 'picking on you'.) I have to wonder how many have actually thought that out.

I hear people all the time who think a leash correction on a flat, slip, or choke collar is OK. Often times, their dog won't follow command without correction, or pulls and pulls instead of walking at heel. This can damage the trachea and cause displacement of the vertebrea in the neck.

The "Gentle Leader" or "Halti".... also referred to as head collars... Put tension on the leash and you rotate the dogs head toward you. Do it with enough force, be it by accident or ignorance, and it doesn't take much to create an injury, again to the neck and spine.

Prong collars... Again, improperly used, they can physically damage the dogs neck.

Point is, if you think about it, ANY training tool, even a flat collar, can do irreparable harm to your dog, in the event of an accident or misuse. I've never heard of an ecollar killing a dog. I've never heard of a modern ecollar causing permanent physical injury... even with misuse (modern... produced in the last 7 or so years, meant for training and not hunting).

This idea that they are inhumane is the result of people using them wrong. Any tool can be used wrong, and some are more damaging when it happens. Yet, I've never heard anyone refer to a 'Halti' or a flat collar as 'inhumane'. It's astounding to me how easily people fall prey to hype and rumor, without learning about what it is they are judging. They get an idea in their heads or hear someone else say it and never take the time to really check it out.

So, I'm just sitting here wondering what is so inhumane about knowing I can recall my dog from danger with one word, put him a down from a distance if he gets loose with one word, just before he bolts into traffic... Call him off my neighbors cats that constantly encroach on my fenced yard... Call him off a possibly rabid coon or a skunk... I can call him back into the house when he bolts out the front door because a stray is in the yard and my 5YO opens the door, and get him back before all hell breaks loose. I can control my dog under nearly any circumstance. I fail to see the inhumanity in that. I see responsibility, dedication to my dogs, and consideration for others in my community and their pets.

We have a responsibility to these animals, as their owners, to keep them safe. Part of that is training. I read somewhere that some 2% of dog owners do any sort of formal training beyond the very very basics (sit, down, shake is not 'trained'.). Yet, everyone is somehow an expert when it comes to what is 'humane'...

 

[PrepH4U]

We never used it to punish him. He never acted like he didn't trust us afterwards and he went back to being his happy go lucky self after we immediately comforted him. I do believe as you do that they have their place. We didn't just randomly go out and by one for the hell of it. We did research and felt at the time it would help along with the other training. The only thing we have now is an invisible fence for the female because she can and will jump over our chain link fence.

So you purchased it for behavior correction? So much for positive reinforcement :shrug:

 

[TurboK9]

So you purchased it for behavior correction? So much for positive reinforcement :shrug:

So because they use correction they don't use positive reinforcement? The two are not mutually exclusive, and in fact, need to be used together for effective and efficient training. Of course, a lot of people do believe in the myth of 'purely positive' training... Not realizing that even a verbal reprimand is negative reinforcement.

Hey, at least they were trying, cared enough about the dog to do SOMETHING whether you agree with their methods or not. That's further than most people go.

 

[seanflow]

I always find it interesting when I hear people say this (believe me JP you aren't the only one, and I'm not 'picking on you'.) I have to wonder how many have actually thought that out.

I hear people all the time who think a leash correction on a flat, slip, or choke collar is OK. Often times, their dog won't follow command without correction, or pulls and pulls instead of walking at heel. This can damage the trachea and cause displacement of the vertebrea in the neck.

The "Gentle Leader" or "Halti".... also referred to as head collars... Put tension on the leash and you rotate the dogs head toward you. Do it with enough force, be it by accident or ignorance, and it doesn't take much to create an injury, again to the neck and spine.

Prong collars... Again, improperly used, they can physically damage the dogs neck.

Point is, if you think about it, ANY training tool, even a flat collar, can do irreparable harm to your dog, in the event of an accident or misuse. I've never heard of an ecollar killing a dog. I've never heard of a modern ecollar causing permanent physical injury... even with misuse (modern... produced in the last 7 or so years, meant for training and not hunting).

This idea that they are inhumane is the result of people using them wrong. Any tool can be used wrong, and some are more damaging when it happens. Yet, I've never heard anyone refer to a 'Halti' or a flat collar as 'inhumane'. It's astounding to me how easily people fall prey to hype and rumor, without learning about what it is they are judging. They get an idea in their heads or hear someone else say it and never take the time to really check it out.

So, I'm just sitting here wondering what is so inhumane about knowing I can recall my dog from danger with one word, put him a down from a distance if he gets loose with one word, just before he bolts into traffic... Call him off my neighbors cats that constantly encroach on my fenced yard... Call him off a possibly rabid coon or a skunk... I can call him back into the house when he bolts out the front door because a stray is in the yard and my 5YO opens the door, and get him back before all hell breaks loose. I can control my dog under nearly any circumstance. I fail to see the inhumanity in that. I see responsibility, dedication to my dogs, and consideration for others in my community and their pets.

We have a responsibility to these animals, as their owners, to keep them safe. Part of that is training. I read somewhere that some 2% of dog owners do any sort of formal training beyond the very very basics (sit, down, shake is not 'trained'.). Yet, everyone is somehow an expert when it comes to what is 'humane'...

I have to say I agree with you totally. Being a "pack leader" myself I know first hand the importance of protecting your pets and those they interact with.

I frequently visit leerburg.com to learn new techniques to help me out.

 

[Crashpupty]

I actually, have used every training tool I own own myself before I've used them on my dogs. My absolute least favorite is the citronella sprayers, just what a dog needs with such a more sensitive shnoz, I failed to see anything humane there... Anyway, A properly set ecollar feels similar to licking a 9 volt battery, that is what you want the dog to feel. For doing proofing where a long line or leash is not practical, they are a wonderful tool. True, most casual pet owners will never really need one, as there are many other, and better options for most pet owners. However, for working dogs, they can be a wonderful asset and allow for levels of off leash training in realistic and distracting settings that cannot otherwise be easily achieved.

They were originally developed for breaking hunting dogs off of dear, and have developed into a very humane and effective tool for distance work that is unmatched if properly used. They should not be used to 'punish' the dog through shocking, but rather for regaining the dog's focus on commands when under the stress of distraction or when locked in prey drive. Nothing like it for reinforcing a long-range(300-400 yard) 'out' command (get off the bad guy and come back here).

We had one 'accident' where my at the time 3 YO son picked up the transmitter while I had my back turned, getting the dogs ready for a day of competition.... my son triggered it on 8 when I had never used more than level 2. Poor boy had no idea what he'd done till the dog cried out. I hit myself on 6 when I bought it to see what and where I would need to set it, expecting a milder stim like the cheap 'Pet Safe' collars give at that level... and it felt like I'd stuck a knife in an outlet. It was months before my dog recovered from that... When it happened, he vocalized and pinned himself to my leg in the 'heel' position, almost blowing out my knee... In competiton that day we failed utterly... he was too shook up. Afterwards if I so much as picked up the remote he would tremble and move to heel as if he'd just been beaten. Broke my heart... Took a lot of work to get him to trust the collar again... eventually he learned to love it again, it meant a day on the training field, and he loved working. I was lucky he was that resilient.

After that happened the transmitter went onto my belt before the collars went on the dogs, so no more 'accidents' could happen. We were competing frequently in protection events and worked security at the time and my dogs had to trust me, and because my dogs worked off leash with me I needed the assurance of an 'emergency brake' if things went bad (gators... not fun, but that's FL for you)....

Point being, they have their place, and can be awesome irreplaceable tools, but only when properly used... and sadly, most people never take the time to learn.

For what you do and in your hands I do not have an issue, these and other training devices are only effective when used properly. In the wrong hands they can be a disaster waiting to happen and I think I just really took offense to the amusing story.

 

[TurboK9]

For what you do and in your hands I do not have an issue, these and other training devices are only effective when used properly. In the wrong hands they can be a disaster waiting to happen and I think I just really took offense to the amusing story.

Agreed.

I think though, that it was a 'fart in church' kind of funny... you laugh because the stress of the moment pushes you in that direction. I once laughed when I got in a car accident when I was younger. The other driver didn't appreciate that much.

 

[TurboK9]

I have to say I agree with you totally. Being a "pack leader" myself I know first hand the importance of protecting your pets and those they interact with.

I frequently visit leerburg.com to learn new techniques to help me out.

Leerburg isn't a bad site. Good info there. I'd watch who you take advice from on the forums though... too much 'tuff dawg' testosterone sometimes, and some of those folks can be very very judgemental of differing attitudes. I've made a lot of friends, and some really heavy enemies in the dog world....

 

[Loper]

I actually, have used every training tool I own own myself before I've used them on my dogs. My absolute least favorite is the citronella sprayers, just what a dog needs with such a more sensitive shnoz, I failed to see anything humane there... Anyway, A properly set ecollar feels similar to licking a 9 volt battery, that is what you want the dog to feel. For doing proofing where a long line or leash is not practical, they are a wonderful tool. True, most casual pet owners will never really need one, as there are many other, and better options for most pet owners. However, for working dogs, they can be a wonderful asset and allow for levels of off leash training in realistic and distracting settings that cannot otherwise be easily achieved.

They were originally developed for breaking hunting dogs off of dear, and have developed into a very humane and effective tool for distance work that is unmatched if properly used. They should not be used to 'punish' the dog through shocking, but rather for regaining the dog's focus on commands when under the stress of distraction or when locked in prey drive. Nothing like it for reinforcing a long-range(300-400 yard) 'out' command (get off the bad guy and come back here).

We had one 'accident' where my at the time 3 YO son picked up the transmitter while I had my back turned, getting the dogs ready for a day of competition.... my son triggered it on 8 when I had never used more than level 2. Poor boy had no idea what he'd done till the dog cried out. I hit myself on 6 when I bought it to see what and where I would need to set it, expecting a milder stim like the cheap 'Pet Safe' collars give at that level... and it felt like I'd stuck a knife in an outlet. It was months before my dog recovered from that... When it happened, he vocalized and pinned himself to my leg in the 'heel' position, almost blowing out my knee... In competiton that day we failed utterly... he was too shook up. Afterwards if I so much as picked up the remote he would tremble and move to heel as if he'd just been beaten. Broke my heart... Took a lot of work to get him to trust the collar again... eventually he learned to love it again, it meant a day on the training field, and he loved working. I was lucky he was that resilient.

After that happened the transmitter went onto my belt before the collars went on the dogs, so no more 'accidents' could happen. We were competing frequently in protection events and worked security at the time and my dogs had to trust me, and because my dogs worked off leash with me I needed the assurance of an 'emergency brake' if things went bad (gators... not fun, but that's FL for you)....

Point being, they have their place, and can be awesome irreplaceable tools, but only when properly used... and sadly, most people never take the time to learn.

TurboK9... I'm not trying to pick on you... I agree with most of what you type about dog training... even though some dogs don't need that level of training,. ... but I have to say that reading the bolded statement from above, I have a hard time believing, that any animal would LOVE to have the collar on... especially after a traumatic experience...

 

[thatguy]

TurboK9... I'm not trying to pick on you... I agree with most of what you type about dog training... even though some dogs don't need that level of training,. ... but I have to say that reading the bolded statement from above, I have a hard time believing, that any animal would LOVE to have the collar on... especially after a traumatic experience...

my dogs are on an underground fence and both have had the necessary "tramatic experiences" (obviously with lots of proper training) to keep them in the yard. And both of them run to the collar when you pick it up. they dont relate anyhting bad with it until it beeps (warning) then the sulk for a few minutes.
Mine has a remote as well but i have only used it a handful of times mostly to break certain negative behavior. again, the beep is usually more than enough to turn them around

 

[jaclyn]

"Shock collars" reminds me of a funny story. We have one and did use it on our Lab. We had a cookout and he was mingling in the yard and had the collar on. My daughter who was about 3 at the time, got a hold of the remote and shocked the dog. My husband immediately took it from her. He put the the remote in his pocket and went about his business. About half an hour or so later he was on the deck and the dog came haulin' azz around the back of the deck trying to bite himself. My husband jumped up and looked over the side to see what was wrong. The dog immediately took shelter under a bush and was noticeably freaked out. Took my hubby a minute but he then realized he had sat down on the remote and pressed the button. Poor dog was probably minding his own business or taking a leak and got the shock of his life, . We still laugh about this to this day

Yeah, I don't see the humor either. Sick bastard.

 

[TurboK9]

TurboK9... I'm not trying to pick on you... I agree with most of what you type about dog training... even though some dogs don't need that level of training,. ... but I have to say that reading the bolded statement from above, I have a hard time believing, that any animal would LOVE to have the collar on... especially after a traumatic experience...

:shrug:

You can believe what you want... No offense taken. But, I have heard many animal rights people claim that stuff like pulling sleds, dogs shouldn't be 'made' to do... watch a sled team. They see the the gear come out and they bounce all over, like you just produced 200 pounds of beef bones and a bucket of tennis balls. People that have never actually seen it, don't tend to believe it.

You have to see it... When you produce the collar in your hand, and the dog starts bouncing all over the room, comes over, repeatedly nudging your hand and yipping excitedly, and after the collar is on won't break heel, the whole time head held high and eyes intent on your face, well, you gotta see it. Remember, my collars are not used to 'punish' the dog... the setting is minimal, only just enough to give a noticeble stim, like licking a 9 volt. I know, because it's tolerable when I do it to myself. IMHO, it's more 'gentle' than an equally effective leash correction.

 

[Loper]

:shrug:

You can believe what you want... No offense taken. But, I have heard many animal rights people claim that stuff like pulling sleds, dogs shouldn't be 'made' to do... watch a sled team. They see the the gear come out and they bounce all over, like you just produced 200 pounds of beef bones and a bucket of tennis balls. People that have never actually seen it, don't tend to believe it.

You have to see it... When you produce the collar in your hand, and the dog starts bouncing all over the room, comes over, repeatedly nudging your hand and yipping excitedly, and after the collar is on won't break heel, the whole time head held high and eyes intent on your face, well, you gotta see it. Remember, my collars are not used to 'punish' the dog... the setting is minimal, only just enough to give a noticeble stim, like licking a 9 volt. I know, because it's tolerable when I do it to myself. IMHO, it's more 'gentle' than an equally effective leash correction.

I love to watch when a working dog enjoys it's job... um wait.. that doesn't read like it should.. um I mean... you know what I mean...

So does that mean you are inviting me over to watch some training? I'll bring my cameras

 

[TurboK9]

I love to watch when a working dog enjoys it's job... um wait.. that doesn't read like it should.. um I mean... you know what I mean...

So does that mean you are inviting me over to watch some training? I'll bring my cameras

Gonna be hard to take pics if you're wearing the sleeve, LOL.

We don't do too much any more... I haven't worked security in a few years, and when Caber died my heart went out of it for competition... So for the last couple years we've just stuck to the basics. If I'm training, it's usually just OB work. Heck it's been impossible to find anyone out here willing to get together and train with. Down in FL and up in MN there were always people to hook up with to 'trade' with, but I haven't found anyone around here... no groups, no individuals...

Harley is a decent enough dog but he'll never be serious competition material, he lacks the attention span to work for more than an hour at a stretch. Other than that, his bitework is fast, furious, and controlled... just no good for actual work, LOL. Good family guardian though. And fun.

I should just do what I used to do and grab some bum who needs $20 beer money and throw them in a bitesleeve or suit for a few hours, LOL.

Eventually I'll get back into the bitework and competing, maybe get a club going, but there seems to be no interest around here. :shrug:

If I do find someone who wants the adrenaline rush of learning how to work a sleeve or suit, I'll let you know!

 

[Loper]

Gonna be hard to take pics if you're wearing the sleeve, LOL.

We don't do too much any more... I haven't worked security in a few years, and when Caber died my heart went out of it for competition... So for the last couple years we've just stuck to the basics. If I'm training, it's usually just OB work. Heck it's been impossible to find anyone out here willing to get together and train with. Down in FL and up in MN there were always people to hook up with to 'trade' with, but I haven't found anyone around here... no groups, no individuals...

I should just do what I used to do and grab some bum who needs $20 beer money and throw them in a bitesleeve or suit for a few hours, LOL.

Eventually I'll get back into the bitework and competing, maybe get a club going, but there seems to be no interest around here. :shrug:

If I do find someone who wants the adrenaline rush of learning how to work a sleeve or suit, I'll let you know!

Well that is what my Hubby is for... Kinda would put a new spin on him being my squeaker guy for photoshoots though...