Update on the war against "Al-Qaida"

[Larry Gude]

Ok...

I agree. Those in the field had to pick up the pieces due to her screwup. Fortunately, operators don't have the turf wars that politicians do. I have NO idea how she got on the 9/11 panel. Interesting book if anyone really knows what happened.

...but she work(ed) for someone. That wasn't her call.

 

[Larry Gude]

Yes...

Do you mean isolationism? Isolationism. Agreed. If there hadn't been a need to go to those places, we should not have. Do you believe there was not a national interest for Afghanistan? Nope. As has been said in here before, OBL is no more than a dupe for people way higher on the food chain than he. A nation, a real nation, doesn't send armies in and invade and waste itself over 19 losers with box cutters and a death wish. For Iraq?Are we doing anything different than this now? Do we FORCE people to trade with us? Nope. If they don't want to trade with us, fine. Do we tell them we'll nuke 'em if they don't import McDonald's cheeseburgers?I fully agree with this. We made the mistake of growing faster than we could supply ourselves, and in the wrong directions often. But, that's where free trade and the market put us. I fully agree that it is in our national interest to change this, and change it as fast as we could be expected to do so.

 

[cwo_ghwebb]

...but she work(ed) for someone. That wasn't her call.

Totally agree. Her recommendation was put in place by someone.

 

[Larry Gude]

Can...

Given that one of those nations actively harbored terrorists whose goal was to harm us, was it wrong to invade and overthrow that nation, in our own interest?

Given that all indications showed that the other nation had a dictator who was literally killing for the chance to take the first nation's place, and had recently performed incredible acts of barbarism under the same leadership, and was over a decade into violating the terms of the cease fire from their most recent acts of global barbarism, and we were a paranoid nation from our wounds, was it wrong of us to overthrow that nation's leadership in our own interest?

...we agree there was probably MUCH better ways to do it than what we did? Our way has resulted in record heroin trafficking. I wonder if we ever found the WMD factories in A'stan, the Weapons of Minor Destruction (box cutter factories)?

 

[This_person]

Isolationism will hurt us in the long run.

Bin Laden may be the middle man on the totem pole, but without mid-level workers, stuff doesn't get done. He wasn't hiding in the country or with the people who are above him, so taking him out where he was at (and those that supported him there) was a good (but failed) goal.

The "real" nation that doesn't send people in after the controllers of 19 folks with box cutters and a death wish ends up ALSO getting embassies bombed, ships attacked, barracks bombed..... wait, that happened first. We weren't going after them for JUST 9/11 - it was the straw that broke the camel's back.

And, if we're not forcing them to trade with us, we're not forcing them to do anything, then how are we "exporting" our westernization onto them? They're taking what they choose to take. The fact that a few nuts can't handle it is the problem, not that they now have wives who can read, and kids who know what a P-Diddy is.

 

[Larry Gude]

Stuff?

Bin Laden may be the middle man on the totem pole, but without mid-level workers, stuff doesn't get done.

Stuff like what? Buying box cutters in bulk on e bay? Jumping through flaming hoops and shooting paper targets?

Individuals are critical in ideological movements.

What they see is our foreign policies bringing our culture to them. They see the Royals and our lapdogs, engaging in our decadence to the detriment of the people.

 

[This_person]

...we agree there was probably MUCH better ways to do it than what we did? Our way has resulted in record heroin trafficking. I wonder if we ever found the WMD factories in A'stan, the Weapons of Minor Destruction (box cutter factories)?

We can agree that there was probably a much better way to accomplish our goals. Hindsight being what it is and all. Heroin traffic may be higher, but that's relative. It was always pretty high. The heroin that is coming HERE is our fault, not theirs. Again, a people choose to import what they want, and cannot blame the exporters for supplying the demand. When we can control ourselves and not buy the herion, they can have all they want.

The box cutters weren't the problem. It was the group that planned and implemented the actions with them; and that group had the explicit support of the government of Afghanistan. Our first objective is rarely to kill the leaders - we have to get through the soldiers first. In the case of bin Laden's group, he and his ilk are the soldiers to get through. Their support group was Afghanistan.

 

[This_person]

Stuff like what? Buying box cutters in bulk on e bay? Jumping through flaming hoops and shooting paper targets?

Stuff like coordinating a group of people to learn enough about flying planes to get them to fly them into buildings. Stuff like planning and implementing bombs in buildings, on little boats driving them into bigger ships, etc., etc., etc. Logistics, intelligence, support, planning......... The stuff the upper portion of that totem pole doesn't do, but has the most impact on Americans.

Individuals are critical in ideological movements.

What they see is our foreign policies bringing our culture to them. They see the Royals and our lapdogs, engaging in our decadence to the detriment of the people.

Then, their problem is with their Royals, not us. It's not our fault they don't like our lifestyle, and we don't force it upon them. If they don't buy the Big Mac and the Run DMC CD, then they don't have to worry about having them.

 

[Larry Gude]

Ok...

We can agree that there was probably a much better way to accomplish our goals. Hindsight being what it is and all. Heroin traffic may be higher, but that's relative. It was always pretty high. The heroin that is coming HERE is our fault, not theirs. Again, a people choose to import what they want, and cannot blame the exporters for supplying the demand. When we can control ourselves and not buy the herion, they can have all they want.

The box cutters weren't the problem. It was the group that planned and implemented the actions with them; and that group had the explicit support of the government of Afghanistan. Our first objective is rarely to kill the leaders - we have to get through the soldiers first. In the case of bin Laden's group, he and his ilk are the soldiers to get through. Their support group was Afghanistan.

...but how titanically hypocritical is it to invade a nation because an attack us originated their and then, while we have the force and opportunity, to stand by and ignore the growth in heroin making it's way to US shores, essentially an attack on us.

You can't be part of killing 3,000 people in one day and costing us billions, but, you can be part of killing 3,000 and costing us billions as long as it is one at a time and spread out over the course of a year.

If we make the argument that Afghani's need the drug money and we just have to accept certain compromises then we make the argument that they needed the money OBL brought as well. So, why couldn't we also accept that?

When we start analyzing that things could have been done in a MUCH better way, at some point, the scales of reason dictate that it was a mistake. As it is, we're using the same rational a gambler does; Keep playing. This will work sooner or later.

 

[Larry Gude]

Yeah...

Stuff like coordinating a group of people to learn enough about flying planes to get them to fly them into buildings. Stuff like planning and implementing bombs in buildings, on little boats driving them into bigger ships, etc., etc., etc. Logistics, intelligence, support, planning......... The stuff the upper portion of that totem pole doesn't do, but has the most impact on Americans.Then, their problem is with their Royals, not us. It's not our fault they don't like our lifestyle, and we don't force it upon them. If they don't buy the Big Mac and the Run DMC CD, then they don't have to worry about having them.

...and we freaking had them. We were all over them and the FBI was told "Nope. You got that info from CIA. Can't have that."

So, we turn our society upside down for want of one little piece of paper saying our law enforcement and intel services shall work together?

 

[Larry Gude]

Yes...

Then, their problem is with their Royals, not us. It's not our fault they don't like our lifestyle, and we don't force it upon them. If they don't buy the Big Mac and the Run DMC CD, then they don't have to worry about having them.

...I agree. However, they see the money and support we give as being the source of their power. Right?

 

[This_person]

...but how titanically hypocritical is it to invade a nation because an attack us originated their and then, while we have the force and opportunity, to stand by and ignore the growth in heroin making it's way to US shores, essentially an attack on us.

It's not hypocritical because herion is not an attack on us any more than Bon Jovi is an attack on Saudi Arabia. Killing us AGAINST OUR WILL, like blowing up our embassies and ships and buildings, and flying planes into buildings, etc., is an attack on us. Providing us with a product WE DEMAND is our own stupidity. If you shoot me, you've attacked me. If you sell me a gun and bullets and I shoot myself, you did NOT attack me.

You can't be part of killing 3,000 people in one day and costing us billions, but, you can be part of killing 3,000 and costing us billions as long as it is one at a time and spread out over the course of a year.

I'm not for that at all. I think drug users are exteremely stupid. I think we should jail drug users, and send drug dealers to rehab instead of the other way around. At least then, there MIGHT be a lowering of drug use.

If we make the argument that Afghani's need the drug money and we just have to accept certain compromises then we make the argument that they needed the money OBL brought as well. So, why couldn't we also accept that?

Who's making that argument?

My argument is they have the right to sell us whatever we buy, just like we have the right to sell others whatever they buy. If we're stupid enough to buy it, that's our problem, not theirs.

When we start analyzing that things could have been done in a MUCH better way, at some point, the scales of reason dictate that it was a mistake. As it is, we're using the same rational a gambler does; Keep playing. This will work sooner or later.

I see it kind of like driving to NYC from here via Little Rock. We realize we made the mistake somewhere between Little Rock and NYC. We can learn from the mistakes, but we still need to get to NYC, so we have to keep driving. The method may have been wrong, but that doens't mean stop in Kentucky and burn the map.

 

[This_person]

...I agree. However, they see the money and support we give as being the source of their power. Right?

I would hope they don't. The power of ANY government is the people governed, whether that's in their laws or not. Thousands of years of governments being overthrown - including monarchies - should demonstrate that.

 

[This_person]

...and we freaking had them. We were all over them and the FBI was told "Nope. You got that info from CIA. Can't have that."

So, we turn our society upside down for want of one little piece of paper saying our law enforcement and intel services shall work together?

Yeah. Our mistake in government. Kinda crappy, isn't it?


BTW, what's your signature line mean? I don't know the quote.

 

[Larry Gude]

Well...

us I see it kind of like driving to NYC from here via Little Rock. We realize we made the mistake somewhere between Little Rock and NYC. We can learn from the mistakes, but we still need to get to NYC, so we have to keep driving. The method may have been wrong, but that doens't mean stop in Kentucky and burn the map.

...where do you see us in 5 years? 10? A generation? A 'good' Afghanistan? A 'good' Iraq? Still looking for NYC? Still worth the trip?

 

[Larry Gude]

There...

BTW, what's your signature line mean? I don't know the quote.

...is a thread about car key remotes not working in some spots and someone said that covering it with foil would make it work by eliminating the interference. I just thought it was a hoot; American 2008; Your key fob needs a tin hat!

 

[This_person]

...where do you see us in 5 years? 10? A generation? A 'good' Afghanistan? A 'good' Iraq? Still looking for NYC? Still worth the trip?

Are you asking what I hope for, or what I expect reality to be ?

In a generation, or maybe even two (see Japan, Germany), I hope for a "good" Iraq, that may even influence it's neighboring countries' societies. I see a much better Afghanistan already, though sinking from neglect.

Worth the trip? Probably. We found out the need for the trip to Iraq was much lower than we (and every other intelligence service of every other nation) thought, but the results may turn out to be worth it in the long run. The need for the trip to Afghanistan has already been worth it.

 

[This_person]

...is a thread about car key remotes not working in some spots and someone said that covering it with foil would make it work by eliminating the interference. I just thought it was a hoot; American 2008; Your key fob needs a tin hat!

 

[Larry Gude]

Anh...

We found out the need for the trip to Iraq was much lower than we (and every other intelligence service of every other nation) thought,

...I'm never gonna buy into that non sense. It was obvious they were full of it from the get go. I just bought into the illusion that we were going over, killing everyone who needed it and imposing US law.

Blix and everyone else knew pretty much everything was gone. It just couldn't be proved and Saddam felt he could not prove it as the threat was part of his power.

I supported the wars. I just expected a 1991 style execution; not this nation building, Vietnam/Korea style horse####. Absent our incredible battlefield medicine, we're looking at something like 15-20,000 KIA. As it is, taking over 40,000 KIA/WIA is criminal with our power.

 

[This_person]

...I'm never gonna buy into that non sense. It was obvious they were full of it from the get go. I just bought into the illusion that we were going over, killing everyone who needed it and imposing US law.

It's what Albright thought, what Clinton thought, what Bush was given as a turnover into the presidency, what the Russians told us, the English told us, and, as you state below, what Saddam told us. What part of it do you disagree with? We can all agree it was probably wrong (Syria is the only one who really knows if it was false from the beginning or not), but you have to agree it's what everybody THOUGHT.

Blix and everyone else knew pretty much everything was gone. It just couldn't be proved and Saddam felt he could not prove it as the threat was part of his power.

Your last is really a big part of the proof - we thought it, he helped us continue to think it. Powerfully. To his detriment.