Vets being declared incompetent???

itsbob

I bowl overhand
I don't know of anyone on the boards that actually goes to the VA for medical care..

I've only stepped in a VA facility once in my 13 years of being retired, and have no plans to EVER do it again.
 

migtig

aka Mrs. Giant
Yes. I've been posting about this off and on for about a year now.

Has anyone actually seen or received one of these letters?
One of the guys in my buddy group received a letter. He received a head trauma and suffered from some mood swings when he first came back, so it was suggested he go to counseling, which was a great idea. There is no shame to learning some coping skills and such. He isn't what I as a non-professional would consider on any level mental - he isn't violent or prone to anger.

All this is going to do is prevent guys/gals from getting the counseling and treatment they need when they get back in-country. It's also lumping all kinds of things into "mentally ill" that really don't need to be in that category.
 

MMM_donuts

New Member
Yes. I've been posting about this off and on for about a year now.


One of the guys in my buddy group received a letter. He received a head trauma and suffered from some mood swings when he first came back, so it was suggested he go to counseling, which was a great idea. There is no shame to learning some coping skills and such. He isn't what I as a non-professional would consider on any level mental - he isn't violent or prone to anger.

All this is going to do is prevent guys/gals from getting the counseling and treatment they need when they get back in-country. It's also lumping all kinds of things into "mentally ill" that really don't need to be in that category.

What does your friend's letter say (vaguely, I have no interest in anyone's personal information)? Does it declare him incompetant for minor PTSD symptoms like this article accuses? My best friend has PTSD experience with the VA and she says, to the best of her knowledge, there is no truth to this story. She has forwarded this article and my questions about it to her colleagues and up the chain of command for further confirmation.
 
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MMM_donuts

New Member
I would think one hand doesn't talk to the other.

The ones making the diagnosis, have nothing to do with sending out the letters. They fill out the medical records, declare what their diagnosis is, and it goes into the vast black void that is the VA medical records repository..

SOMEwhere, a little red light goes on, or a flag goes up, or AOL announces.. "you've got a looney mail!" and THAT department declares them a danger to society, and manufactures the letter(s).

The mental health care people, and other doctors and medical staff probably would have NO idea their diagnoses are being used in this particular fashion, though they would know that there is VERY little privacy concerning medical records of veterans.

I don't doubt that's it's certainly possible but I remain skeptical of this.
 

migtig

aka Mrs. Giant
What does your friend's letter say (vaguely, I have no interest in anyone's personal information)? Does it declare him incompetant for minor PTSD symptoms like this article accuses?

So here's the VA's Guidance that's been out for a few years initiating the policy:
http://www.jimstrickland912.com/uploads/FL09-008.pdf

Here's an article where the US Senate started holding "discussions" on the subject:
Change on veterans

And here's a blogospher article:
SHOCK REPORT — Veterans Receive Letters From VA Prohibiting Ownership or Purchase of Firearms | The Gateway Pundit

And attached is a redacted letter:
 

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bcp

In My Opinion
Nations pretty voltile right now, first time in history since the civil war that I could actually see people rising up.
considering this, I say GREAT, let obammy and the democrats take as many rights away from the service men and women that they can.

Piss them off and when they have to choose, guess whos side they are going to be on? And let me tell you, I dont think there is even one officer out there that thinks the crew members couldnt run that ship without them.
 

twinoaks207

Having Fun!
So here's the VA's Guidance that's been out for a few years initiating the policy:
http://www.jimstrickland912.com/uploads/FL09-008.pdf

Here's an article where the US Senate started holding "discussions" on the subject:
Change on veterans

And here's a blogospher article:
SHOCK REPORT — Veterans Receive Letters From VA Prohibiting Ownership or Purchase of Firearms | The Gateway Pundit

And attached is a redacted letter:

Thank you, thank you, for providing these additional resources. This issue came to my attention via a Facebook group, Battling Bare, that is an advocate for treatment and assistance for PTSD.

I am concerned as I think this is ripe for abuse by our "government" (in the personages of civil servants who are actually making these determinations) and in the current climate of our nation, the risk of paranoid knee-jerk reactions is highly probable.

Have you come across anything that states the criteria for determining someone "incompetent"? I would really be interested in seeing that.

We have got to be able to balance the many and varied needs of our returning troops without resorting to actions that may, as in unintended result, cause fewer of them to seek necessary help and also trample upon the constitutional rights that these folks fought to protect.
 

twinoaks207

Having Fun!
Nations pretty voltile right now, first time in history since the civil war that I could actually see people rising up.
considering this, I say GREAT, let obammy and the democrats take as many rights away from the service men and women that they can.

Piss them off and when they have to choose, guess whos side they are going to be on? And let me tell you, I dont think there is even one officer out there that thinks the crew members couldnt run that ship without them.

It is only a matter of time, and sad to say, I don't think it's going to be a long time before that happens. I don't remember things being this bad even in the heart of the Vietnam War protests and the Watergate issue. Actually, these days make those times look pretty damn good...:coffee:
 

migtig

aka Mrs. Giant
Thank you, thank you, for providing these additional resources. This issue came to my attention via a Facebook group, Battling Bare, that is an advocate for treatment and assistance for PTSD.

I am concerned as I think this is ripe for abuse by our "government" (in the personages of civil servants who are actually making these determinations) and in the current climate of our nation, the risk of paranoid knee-jerk reactions is highly probable.

Have you come across anything that states the criteria for determining someone "incompetent"? I would really be interested in seeing that.

We have got to be able to balance the many and varied needs of our returning troops without resorting to actions that may, as in unintended result, cause fewer of them to seek necessary help and also trample upon the constitutional rights that these folks fought to protect.

Not seen the specific document, but I heard it can be anything from seeking counseling for anything through the VA, to brain trauma and anything else slightly borderline. If I see / hear anything through the group I'll let you know to share with your group.
 

MMM_donuts

New Member
This is really interesting. I might start a different thread to talk about the VA in general but for the sake of keeping with the topic, what interest would the VA have in declaring a person mentally ill and finanically incompetent for seemingly minor symptoms? Suicide is wicked high right now but would they really take such a rash approach....especially knowing that if this ever became public, it would discourage people from seeking treatment and care?
 

officeguy

Well-Known Member
If you provide an assessment from your treating physician or mental health professional that you are competent to handle your own affairs, that process will pretty much come to a halt.

Similarly, if you request a hearing and you show up with either an advocate from one of the vets groups or an attorney and argue your case, the VA has no cause and no incentive to move forward.

This is no different from the county dept. of social services requesting a guardianship if they believe that someone is siphoning money away from a beneficiary who is unable to handle his own affairs. If you show up at the hearing with your balanced checkbook, the judge will give the social worker a chewing out and send you home. If you miss the hearing because the voices in your head told you not to go, well then maybe you do need some help.

The only reason this is getting any traction is because the form letter mentions the guns and thereby plays into the agenda of a powerful industrial interest.

I have worked with veterans, and some of them need a lot of help. This letter is part of the process that gets them that help. If the letter didn't mention the magic word 'guns', none of the groups that is currently driving this campaign would give a ####.
 

twinoaks207

Having Fun!
If you provide an assessment from your treating physician or mental health professional that you are competent to handle your own affairs, that process will pretty much come to a halt.

Similarly, if you request a hearing and you show up with either an advocate from one of the vets groups or an attorney and argue your case, the VA has no cause and no incentive to move forward.

This is no different from the county dept. of social services requesting a guardianship if they believe that someone is siphoning money away from a beneficiary who is unable to handle his own affairs. If you show up at the hearing with your balanced checkbook, the judge will give the social worker a chewing out and send you home. If you miss the hearing because the voices in your head told you not to go, well then maybe you do need some help.

The only reason this is getting any traction is because the form letter mentions the guns and thereby plays into the agenda of a powerful industrial interest.

I have worked with veterans, and some of them need a lot of help. This letter is part of the process that gets them that help. If the letter didn't mention the magic word 'guns', none of the groups that is currently driving this campaign would give a ####.

The organization that brought this to my attention is this one:
Battling Bare: Military Wives Stripping Down to Battle PTSD - ABC News (via their Facebook page).

They have, over the past few months, shared tons of information about the current state of treatment or lack there-of for our soldiers returning home.

If playing to a gun lobby gets attention focused on needs of our returning service members that aren't being met, then I say go for it with gusto. You have to use what you can when it comes to "politics" and these days, unfortunately, PTSD is now a political issue.

Personally, I think that any country that is willing to throw its soldiers into combat (especially in a foreign country), damn well ought to be able to step up and see that they get what they need when they come home.

Perhaps we need some graphic pictures and videos of exactly what things are like over there shared in Congress and on the media -- a picture is worth a thousand words. If we have folks who can't sleep due to the pictures in their heads, then by-God, the folks who sent them there to see those images in person ought to be able to stomach those images, too!

We need something!! We are losing too many of our soldiers to non-combat. (And it's bad enough that we're losing them to combat, we don't need to add to the carnage with something that can be prevented or treated.)
 

officeguy

Well-Known Member
If playing to a gun lobby gets attention focused on needs of our returning service members that aren't being met, then I say go for it with gusto. You have to use what you can when it comes to "politics" and these days, unfortunately, PTSD is now a political issue.

Actually, it discredits the whole effort. If all I hear about an issue are 'infowars' and 'teapartynation' links, I pretty much zone out. The issue is that there will be 3.5mil vets affected by the iraq and afghanistan war after everything is said and done and how to take care of the ones that need help. The issue is not one of gun-rights.

The letter from the VA seems to be a bit heavy handed and I don't know if it is appropriate as the first step in the process (I actually dont even know whether it IS the first step in the process). Rather than starting out the process with a letter that basically says 'we think you are incompetent and we will declare you so formally unless you prove us otherwise', it would probably be more helpful to start out with 'a concern has been brought to our attention that you may not be able to take care of your own affairs. Here is the phone number for our social worker at the VA outpatient center in soandso and we want you to meet with him to see whether we can be of assistance to you.'

If you look at the letter, the focus of this process is NOT the guns. The focus is to appoint a fiduciary who receives the benefit payments and pays out the veterans rent, electrical bill, civilian doctors bills etc. The letter just informs the vet that IF the VA appoints a fiduciary, it will have an impact on his gun rights. They are following the law, and I am certain that these letters have gone out since the 70s independent of who is in the whitehouse.

Personally, I think that any country that is willing to throw its soldiers into combat (especially in a foreign country), damn well ought to be able to step up and see that they get what they need when they come home.

Perhaps we need some graphic pictures and videos of exactly what things are like over there shared in Congress and on the media -- a picture is worth a thousand words. If we have folks who can't sleep due to the pictures in their heads, then by-God, the folks who sent them there to see those images in person ought to be able to stomach those images, too!

We need something!! We are losing too many of our soldiers to non-combat. (And it's bad enough that we're losing them to combat, we don't need to add to the carnage with something that can be prevented or treated.)

I wholeheartedly agree with you on all those points.
 

Ken King

A little rusty but not crusty
PREMO Member
Actually, it discredits the whole effort. If all I hear about an issue are 'infowars' and 'teapartynation' links, I pretty much zone out. The issue is that there will be 3.5mil vets affected by the iraq and afghanistan war after everything is said and done and how to take care of the ones that need help. The issue is not one of gun-rights.

The letter from the VA seems to be a bit heavy handed and I don't know if it is appropriate as the first step in the process (I actually dont even know whether it IS the first step in the process). Rather than starting out the process with a letter that basically says 'we think you are incompetent and we will declare you so formally unless you prove us otherwise', it would probably be more helpful to start out with 'a concern has been brought to our attention that you may not be able to take care of your own affairs. Here is the phone number for our social worker at the VA outpatient center in soandso and we want you to meet with him to see whether we can be of assistance to you.'

If you look at the letter, the focus of this process is NOT the guns. The focus is to appoint a fiduciary who receives the benefit payments and pays out the veterans rent, electrical bill, civilian doctors bills etc. The letter just informs the vet that IF the VA appoints a fiduciary, it will have an impact on his gun rights. They are following the law, and I am certain that these letters have gone out since the 70s independent of who is in the whitehouse.



I wholeheartedly agree with you on all those points.

I am sure that the letters are relatively new, at least since 2007 with the passing of the NICS Improvement Amendment Act, the weapon barring issue started in 1997 when the "adjudicated mental defective" provision of the 1993 Brady bill went into affect.
 

MMM_donuts

New Member
At what point would someone receive a letter like this? I would think you'd have to be more than just a little behind on your bills or have "minor" symtoms.


If someone were a serious threat to themselves or others, wouldn't we want their access to guns to be somewhat limited? Doesn't our society demand that of mental health professionals?


(please don't let these questions anger you, I'm seriously just asking out of curiousity)
 

officeguy

Well-Known Member
I am sure that the letters are relatively new, at least since 2007 with the passing of the NICS Improvement Amendment Act, the weapon barring issue started in 1997 when the "adjudicated mental defective" provision of the 1993 Brady bill went into affect.

Now you made me look it up :)

As I suspected, they are buerocrats, whatever they do is because someone passed a law and the president signed it. The warning paragraph about the gun rights is the result of that 2007 law.
The prohibition against transferring a firearm to a person who has been adjudicated mentally defective goes back to the 1968 gun control act. All the database keeping and database checking didn't come around until later. So a veteran found to be incompetent in the 70s was already prohibited from receiving firearms, just nobody told him about it.
 

officeguy

Well-Known Member
At what point would someone receive a letter like this? I would think you'd have to be more than just a little behind on your bills or have "minor" symtoms.

You can actually look up the process that happens VA internal before such a notice is sent out. While some dropped bills may be what kicks of the process, there has to be more for that finding to be entered.
Now the VA is a faceless buerocracy and logic is not one of their strong-suits, so I would not be suprised if some of these determinations are made in error.

In order to even get into that pipeline, you have to have a disability claim in the system. If you claim to be so disabled by your PTSD that you are unable to hold any kind of job, there is in fact a question whether you are competent to take care of your own affairs. Some people may get tripped up by the information they put into their disability claim.

As I said earlier. If someone is competent, they wont have a problem to pass a competency hearing. Be it at the VA or in the civilian courts.

If someone were a serious threat to themselves or others, wouldn't we want their access to guns to be somewhat limited? Doesn't our society demand that of mental health professionals?

98% of society would want that. They also wouldn't want a gun to be sold to a psychotic individual like Loughner, Cho or Holmes.


What we dont want is that medical/psychiatric information is abused to arbitrarily deprive people of their rights or even worse to do this with a political agenda. I am no friend of the VA, but I dont see either of those happening here.
 
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