Welcome To Hell

[vraiblonde]

Many powerful political people profess their values and views of our society from what they learned or were taught in church.

Maybe that's where Clinton learned to get bjs. Or where Robert Byrd donned his first white hood.

I just read the article and don't see what the big deal is. A life of torment DOES await you if you are a bad, immoral person. Why is it wrong to say so?

And church CAN help you turn your life around, if for no other reason than it takes you away from your homies and gives you something to do besides take drugs and beat your wife.

I suspect the outrage is because of all this "I'm Okay, You're Okay" bullshit we were taught in the 70's and haven't completely gotten out of our system. You know, where libbies think that child rapists are just misunderstood and cop killers have a point?

This author certainly has some skeletons in his closet (no pun intended) and is feeling defensive and embarrassed. Typically that's what people mean when they say they're "offended".

 

[Dougstermd]

Maybe that's where Clinton learned to get bjs. Or where Robert Byrd donned his first white hood.


This author certainly has some skeletons in his closet (no pun intended) and is feeling defensive and embarrassed. Typically that's what people mean when they say they're "offended".

I am not saying I was offended more quite amused at the brainwashing they were using as a recruitment tool. sorta like David Koresh???

 

[Llwynog]

What's peculiar is how it is labelled "right-wing".

It's a church. There is no political agenda. It may be fundamentalist, but it is NOT political.

right wing - The conservative or reactionary faction of a group.

It's not an exclusively political term.

 

[vraiblonde]

more quite amused at the brainwashing they were using as a recruitment tool.

Okay, I'm still confused. What part of it is "brainwashing"? Extreme, to be sure, but sometimes it takes extreme measures to get peoples' attention.

 

[vraiblonde]

right wing - The conservative or reactionary faction of a group.

And that's a faulty description. Typically it's the liberals that are reactionary, not the conservatives. Not to mention that, in the common vernacular, "right-wing" is a political description. Much like "gay" is a sexual one.

 

[Tigerlily]

I will never forget a church I attended in Virginia that had a haunted house in the basement one year. It id not seem strange at the time but now thinking back on the people all dressed up in gore and blood dripping from them seems very out of keeping with the religious values they were trying to impart.

 

[Tonio]

I just read the article and don't see what the big deal is. A life of torment DOES await you if you are a bad, immoral person. Why is it wrong to say so?

And church CAN help you turn your life around, if for no other reason than it takes you away from your homies and gives you something to do besides take drugs and beat your wife.

As I said, I have some disagreements with the group's doctrine. I don't believe Hell exists and I don't believe that all pleasure is sinful. Plus, isn't it ludicrious to suggest that homosexuality and pornography inevitably lead to murder?

You have a good point about church being one way for people to turn their lives around. I believe that emotionally mature adults don't (or shouldn't) need fear of punishment to keep them out of trouble. Fear doesn't help people learn to make good moral choices. Instead, it teaches them to please others. It teaches them that they are not in control of their own lives. I see that as not much different from the dependency that welfare promotes.

 

[SamSpade]

right wing - The conservative or reactionary faction of a group.

It's not an exclusively political term.

Really? What would be the "left-wing" church? The one that serves beer and pretzels for communion?

Some Christians are right-wing. Some are left-wing. Some fundie churches are heavily into charities and assisting the poor - does that make them right-wing, or left-wing?

 

[migtig]

Okay, before I call the men in white coats to come snag you in their butterfly net, what in the world makes you think that?

C-PAC for one http://www.cpac.org/
and the National Reform Association http://www.natreformassn.org/
oh and let's not forget the Christian Coalition http://www.cc.org/

 

[MysticalMom]

NAIVE THOUGHT. Church and state might be seperate but politics and religion go hand and hand they are probally largest fundraiser groups in the world.

Here here! Organized religion=Best money making scheme in the world. A good way to control the populace too. (oh they'll bash me now)

Wish I had thought of it.

Ahhh well. As usual..a day late ( ok ok 2000 thousand years late) and a dollar short.

 

[Dougstermd]

Okay, I'm still confused. What part of it is "brainwashing"? Extreme, to be sure, but sometimes it takes extreme measures to get peoples' attention.

I believe it is the children's parents responsibility to impart religion. I know many parents will not even take the time to impart education at the elementary level. My parents never went to church with me. I started going as a teenager because the youth group activities seemed like so much fun and they were. Then came the brainwashing like listening to the beatles and Led Zepplin would send me to hell.

 

[dustin]

I thought this was gonna be a thread about Grand Cayman

 

[SamSpade]

As I said, I have some disagreements with the group's doctrine. I don't believe Hell exists and I don't believe that all pleasure is sinful. Plus, isn't it ludicrious to suggest that homosexuality and pornography inevitably lead to murder?

Touche. That would be over the top, for me. How that makes it "right-wing", I couldn't say.

You have a good point about church being one way for people to turn their lives around. I believe that emotionally mature adults don't (or shouldn't) need fear of punishment to keep them out of trouble. Fear doesn't help people learn to make good moral choices. Instead, it teaches them to please others. It teaches them that they are not in control of their own lives. I see that as not much different from the dependency that welfare promotes.

I partly agree. Fear of getting *FIRED* has a lot to do with why people don't take four hour lunches, leave early, shirk their duties and insult the boss. Emotionally mature people can still be SOB's who think the world owes them. *Fear* keeps me on my toes when I use a chain-saw or table-saw. Fear of failure keeps me alert on the roadway especially when I have passengers in the car. I don't agree that use of fear is necessarily always inappropriate. The Bible says that fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom. That's right - you want to be wise, *start* there. It doesn't end there, just as maturity doesn't end with being afraid of your parents, either. But it's important to realize who is in charge.

That being said, it is comforting to know that God not only loves you - he actually *likes* you. Seems funny, but it's a big deal to me. (I always liked Morgan Freeman's 'God' in 'Bruce Almighty'). Did you ever appreciate a friend, because, with all your foibles, with all your worst bits hanging out - they STILL want to be with you at the end of the day? That's how we're supposed to answer to the grace of God. It's like gratitude.

The fundie church I used to go to used to place this BIG guilt trip on its members - that Jesus suffered on the cross for you. Yes - he did. Well damn, if you hadn't been so SINFUL - he might not have to suffer so! Oh my! Don't you see how gross your sins are! Oh how wretched I am! And we were subjected to week after week of breast-beating and mea culpas of how awful we were - a good sermon told us how bad we were.

Ridiculous. Jesus on the cross is NOT about how BAD *I* am - it's about how *wonderful* he is. My sins didn't force him on the cross - he didn't go kicking and screaming. He went there on his own. He did it on purpose and he would have done it all just for me. That's what makes it wonderful, and not horrible.

 

[vraiblonde]

I don't believe that all pleasure is sinful. Plus, isn't it ludicrious to suggest that homosexuality and pornography inevitably lead to murder?

I saw that as an extreme metaphor. Homosexuality aside, the rest of the descriptions of sin were pretty much common sense. And all pleasure isn't sinful, but a lot of the things people take pleasure in these days is. Playing at the park with your toddler isn't sinful, but it's still a pleasure. Surfing the web for kiddie porn, however, is something else.

I believe that emotionally mature adults don't (or shouldn't) need fear of punishment to keep them out of trouble. Fear doesn't help people learn to make good moral choices. Instead, it teaches them to please others. It teaches them that they are not in control of their own lives. I see that as not much different from the dependency that welfare promotes.

Dream on. The only reason we do anything is because of pleasure and pain. If the pain outweighs the pleasure, we won't do it. Basically we are animals and that's all we understand. Whatever makes us uncomfortable, we will avoid. That is true in every aspect of our lives and rarely will someone overcome their discomfort to branch out into new territory.

 

[Dougstermd]

That is true in every aspect of our lives and rarely will someone overcome their discomfort to branch out into new territory.

Do you mean like trying stuffed ham and scalded oysters for the first time?

 

[Tonio]

I partly agree. Fear of getting *FIRED* has a lot to do with why people don't take four hour lunches, leave early, shirk their duties and insult the boss. Emotionally mature people can still be SOB's who think the world owes them. *Fear* keeps me on my toes when I use a chain-saw or table-saw. Fear of failure keeps me alert on the roadway especially when I have passengers in the car. I don't agree that use of fear is necessarily always inappropriate. The Bible says that fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom. That's right - you want to be wise, *start* there. It doesn't end there, just as maturity doesn't end with being afraid of your parents, either. But it's important to realize who is in charge.

Very thought-provoking. I was talking specifically about fear of punishment, not fear of consequences in general. Every action has consequences, and we learn from those consequences.

With fear of punishment, you focus only on keeping someone else from getting angry at you. You don't learn the true consequences of your actions.

 

[Tonio]

Dream on. The only reason we do anything is because of pleasure and pain. If the pain outweighs the pleasure, we won't do it. Basically we are animals and that's all we understand. Whatever makes us uncomfortable, we will avoid. That is true in every aspect of our lives and rarely will someone overcome their discomfort to branch out into new territory.

Man, that's depressing. It suggests that humans aren't capable of evolving. Will any of us ever be capable of the deeds shown by, for example, the nameless hero of the 14th Street airliner crash?

 

[vraiblonde]

C-PAC for one http://www.cpac.org/
and the National Reform Association http://www.natreformassn.org/
oh and let's not forget the Christian Coalition http://www.cc.org/

Mig, it stands to reason that religious folks will be against the modern liberal agenda. Your basic Christian isn't going to be all about homosexuality, animal rights, coddling murders and rapists, and gratuitous sex.

But I don't see what that has to do with politics and religion going hand in hand. Lower taxes has nothing to do with religion, nor do school vouchers, affirmative action, terrorism or welfare reform.

 

[Tonio]

Mig, it stands to reason that religious folks will be against the modern liberal agenda. Your basic Christian isn't going to be all about homosexuality, animal rights, coddling murders and rapists, and gratuitous sex.

But I don't see what that has to do with politics and religion going hand in hand. Lower taxes has nothing to do with religion, nor do school vouchers, affirmative action, terrorism or welfare reform.

Plus, Christians and Christian churches don't all have the same political views. No group can be completely monolithic in its views. Catholicism, for example, opposes abortion and homosexuality (stereotypically conservative views) but also opposes the death penalty and believes in helping the poor (stereotypically liberal views).

 

[vraiblonde]

Man, that's depressing. It suggests that humans aren't capable of evolving. Will any of us ever be capable of the deeds shown by, for example, the nameless hero of the 14th Street airliner crash?

Obviously some of us are capable, or there would be no 14th Street bridge dude to compare the rest of us to.

Maybe he didn't really think about it, just did it. Or maybe death was preferable to the guilt of letting others die in his place. Who knows?

But with every disaster, there are a handful of heroes, and many more who just stand there and do nothing. Remember Lenny Skutnik? Dove into the Potomac to help that woman get the life preserver on...while how many others stood by and did nothing?