We're in the last moments of world history...

[UNA]

Easy. History is not something that can be proven by the scientific method. It's why we must be careful with how we use the words "proof" or "evidence."

A scientific method is indeed applied to history. It was introduced in the 14th century by the historian Ibn Khaldun.

There are many methods with which we interpret history; Saint Augustine obviously viewed history theologically as did the "Father of History" Herodotus but I guess I take a more secular approach and evaluate history on the culture of the time, chronology and physical evidence.

If you are looking for scientific proof of things, well just about any particular historical event before the invention of television can be brought into question as to its authenticity.

Accounts of history can and often are challenged, subsequently proven inaccurate. There are, however, other sources of history! We use archeological and anthropological evidence to support (or discredit) first / second hand accounts. It is that physical evidence that proves historical events, not the accounts.

 

[UNA]

I don't have the exact writings but 3 come to mind if you want to check them out. These are "extra-biblical" sources:
Tacitus
Josephus
Suetonius

Tacitus wrote of the persecution of Christians by Nero. He writes of the origins on Christianity, considered to be one of the earliest non-Christian accounts of the origin of Christianity. But...no references to a physical resurrection that I know of.

Josephus texts concerning Jesus are highly contested; most consider his writings to be only partially authentic with the portions corresponding to Christianity (Luke) considered to be additions by a later Christian.

Scholars don't even agree Suetonius texts reference Jesus citing possible spelling errors and/or misinterpretations of the vernacular of the time.

:shrug:

 

[2ndAmendment]

So then you do agree that we cannot prove much of anything one way or the other.

No!

 

[2ndAmendment]

The 'burden' of proof is on the believers.

Wrong! See, you are wrong again and I posted it.

 

[2ndAmendment]

agree to disagree I suppose...but take the Great Flood. All the land was covered by water but there isn't enough water on the Earth cover all the land. So did God create extra water and now it's gone?

Or

The Nativity. I was taught that Mary and Joseph were traveling back to their home town to participate in a Roman census. A Roman census didn't care where you were from rather where you currently lived. So at the very least, that's not why they were traveling.

Do you know how much water is in a cloud? According to scientists, the water in the little cloud weighs about 550 tons. At 8.345404 pounds per gallon, that is 131,809.077 gallons (17620.311 ft^3) of water. That is a lot of water and that is only one little cloud. Or since the springs of the earth were opened there was more water. Do you have any idea how much water is below the surface of the earth? What if it all came to the surface? And if that was not enough, so what, God could create extra water? Why not? God is God.

Luke 2:1-3

1Now in those days a decree went out from Caesar Augustus, that a census be taken of all the inhabited earth.

2This was the first census taken while Quirinius was governor of Syria.

3And everyone was on his way to register for the census, each to his own city.

Maybe all Roman census (censuses if you prefer) did not require travel to the city of origin, but apparently Caesar Augustus cared. If he didn't, then the burden of proof is on you.

 

[2ndAmendment]

Both good but only one is actually undeniable.

Right! The Bible!

 

[2ndAmendment]

Finally home, finally watched the clip!

The speaker cites 3 facts:

1. The empty tomb
2. Multiple post mortum sightings
3. Sudden belief by the original disciples that God had risen Jesus

But he only details the first 'fact'. I can easily believe the tomb was found empty; his followers moved him, his 'enemies' moved him.....is there a discussion on the other two facts (IMO the more important ones)? Maybe the link didn't have the whole video (7:30 min)?

And if you, yes put yourself in the context, knew that the body had been moved, would you be willing to be crucified when others said you would be unless you denied the resurrection? Would you knowingly die for a lie?

As to the enemies of Jesus taking the body, what about the Roman soldiers? Hmmm? They were put on guard to prevent His followers from taking the body, but would they not have prevented anyone from taking the body? And if the Scribes and Pharisees, the only ones with a vested interest in proving there was no resurrection, had taken the body, don't you think they would have produced it to prove Jesus was not ascended into heaven?

 

[hvp05]

No!

Then you probably should not have raised your proverbial glass to Psy's comment.

I call your attention to the post he made immediately following the one you heartily agreed with:

Perhaps I missed the facts vs. faith part since I recall trying to point out that your trust in the facts ends up being nothing more than faith in those who give you those ‘facts’; since those facts can’t be concretely proven. It’s about proving what you believe is right; which, given the limited amount of ‘facts’, we can’t.

And if that was not enough, so what, God could create extra water? Why not? God is God.

It sure must be nice to bend reality to fit whatever you want to believe; to go beyond physics with the simple sticking of your fingers into your ears and saying, "Na-na-na-na!"

If you wish to resort to "God is God," why bother to discuss anything ever? :shrug:

 

[UNA]

Do you know how much water is in a cloud? According to scientists, the water in the little cloud weighs about 550 tons. At 8.345404 pounds per gallon, that is 131,809.077 gallons (17620.311 ft^3) of water. That is a lot of water and that is only one little cloud. Or since the springs of the earth were opened there was more water. Do you have any idea how much water is below the surface of the earth? What if it all came to the surface? And if that was not enough, so what, God could create extra water? Why not? God is God.

It's not as much water as you would think. There does not exist enough water in the Earth (below, on and above) to cover the highest mountain in 20 feet. But no matter what I say, you can say "well God did it, He just made more water". So, God doesn't follow the rules he created?

Maybe all Roman census (censuses if you prefer) did not require travel to the city of origin, but apparently Caesar Augustus cared. If he didn't, then the burden of proof is on you.

A census (then as today) is for tax purposes, they don't care where I'm from (i.e. I don't pay Pennsylvania taxes) they care where I am (I pay Maryland taxes). There is no record of the Romans taking a census that way, they were meticulous record keepers. There is no record of a Roman worldwide census in the first place! The burden of proof is not on me as I am not the one going against convention here. But in any case:

James Douglas Grant Dunn, Jesus Remembered states that "...it was not the practice in Roman censuses to require people to return to their ancestral homes..."

and

Emil Schürer (revised by Geza Vermes, Fergus Millar and Matthew Black), The History of the Jewish People in the Age of Jesus Christ states that "...no historical sources mention a worldwide or even a Roman-controlled world census which would cover the population as a whole; those of Augustus covered Roman citizens only...". Mary and Joseph were not Roman (as in the city) citizens.

 

[UNA]

And if you, yes put yourself in the context, knew that the body had been moved, would you be willing to be crucified when others said you would be unless you denied the resurrection? Would you knowingly die for a lie?

As to the enemies of Jesus taking the body, what about the Roman soldiers? Hmmm? They were put on guard to prevent His followers from taking the body, but would they not have prevented anyone from taking the body? And if the Scribes and Pharisees, the only ones with a vested interest in proving there was no resurrection, had taken the body, don't you think they would have produced it to prove Jesus was not ascended into heaven?

I was just asking for the rest of the speech/sermon...

And yes, I would lie my azz off, saying it doesn't make it true...I would tell you the sky was purple if it saved my or a loved one's life! It's called survival

This is why I wanted to see the rest of the speech/sermon, I don't have your whole argument yet! I looked but the only videos I can find are about 7:30 minutes long...

 

[UNA]

It sure must be nice to bend reality to fit whatever you want to believe; to go beyond physics with the simple sticking of your fingers into your ears and saying, "Na-na-na-na!"

If you wish to resort to "God is God," why bother to discuss anything ever? :shrug:

Well it took longer than I thought for that 'argument' to be pulled!

 

[2ndAmendment]

Then you probably should not have raised your proverbial glass to Psy's comment.

I call your attention to the post he made immediately following the one you heartily agreed with:



It sure must be nice to bend reality to fit whatever you want to believe; to go beyond physics with the simple sticking of your fingers into your ears and saying, "Na-na-na-na!"

If you wish to resort to "God is God," why bother to discuss anything ever? :shrug:

But God is God. He created the universe and established all the laws by which it operates. That is the way it is. Sorry you don't like. Too bad, so sad.

So discussion or debate or whatever is out. So don't read or reply to what I post.

 

[2ndAmendment]

And yes, I would lie my azz off, saying it doesn't make it true...I would tell you the sky was purple if it saved my or a loved one's life! It's called survival

You missed it totally!

If it did not matter, then maybe the disciples would have lied or denied, as Peter did when Jesus was arrested. But after the resurrection and ascension, there was no more denying by the disciples or any others that witnessed the resurrected Jesus. They died rather than deny. If the resurrection did not really happen and they knew it, then there would have been no reason not to deny since it would have been the truth; they would not have died for a lie. But they did choose to died rather than deny because they KNEW the resurrection is true.

 

[UNA]

Wirelessly posted

And yes, I would lie my azz off, saying it doesn't make it true...I would tell you the sky was purple if it saved my or a loved one's life! It's called survival

You missed it totally!

If it did not matter, then maybe the disciples would have lied or denied, as Peter did when Jesus was arrested. But after the resurrection and ascension, there was no more denying by the disciples or any others that witnessed the resurrected Jesus. They died rather than deny. If the resurrection did not really happen and they knew it, then there would have been no reason not to deny since it would have been the truth; they would not have died for a lie. But they did choose to died rather than deny because they KNEW the resurrection is true.

Guess I lack conviction...