StoneThrower
New Member
Actually I am reffering to the church, not as a building or an organizartion, but as a body of believers who love and serve each other.
What are the requirements to join your church?
- Thread starter StoneThrower
- Start date
Actually I am reffering to the church, not as a building or an organizartion, but as a body of believers who love and serve each other.
PsyOps
Pixelated
StoneThrower
New Member
Hey cool down and look at what you wrote.
I am only going on what you told me.
Your right I don’t know your experience you haven’t shared, but in all honesty it’s irrelevant, it doesn’t matter it’s in the past.
The fact is Christians have a Biblical mandate, and you volunteered that you’re not following it. That is sin, and scripture says that if you continue in sin your of the devil.
In your post you did blame shift, you said that if I was going to mention your lack of obedience and then you went on to attack the church. Blame shifting is a lack of taking responsibility for your sin, I am not talking about your work ethic, but how your handeling your lack of obedience to the Lords commands and using and unknow reason to justify it!
Am not picking on you, or trying to be mean, not at all.
I am trying to get you to think about things. If you think I am coming off as holier than thou, than your not reading me correctly. I am trying to tell you I am concerned about you.
Scripture also says:
1 Brethren, even if anyone is caught in any trespass, you who are spiritual, restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness; each one looking to yourself, so that you too will not be tempted. 2 Bear one another’s burdens, and thereby fulfill the law of Christ.
I am giving you the benefit of a doubt you are a brother! John Calvin would not have.
The correct response for a Christian is not to get ugly, but to examine yourself and see if you are in the truth. Do you think I lied when I referred to what scripture says?
For all I know you could be a bitter Roman Catholic, as usually they turn from Christ altogether because of the hypocrisies of the church.
I made the comment that your not in a church NOW working to make it better, again the past is just that, in the past and if your a believer your called to forgive and move on.
If you repented, on not obeying the Lords commands, than you would be obeying Him now and would be in a fellowship. Repentance requires turning from your sin.
So take a deep breath, relax, than read what you said.
You can get mad, but its not going to do either one of us any good. Perhaps there is something to be learned!
Or not, get mad, call be an idiot and get and stay all bent out of shape.
A real church is a beautiful thing and its a blessing to be a part of it, and the fellowship is sweet, and folks love one another. That sure beats sitting on the outside lobbing stones at it!
Ps: If you want to be known, PM me. Id be happy to meet and talk in person, the idea is to get you restored, where you can be blessed and bless others.
StoneThrower
New Member
So you're changing the subject.
Not at all I misunderstood the question, thanks for asking!
From a great article I read this morning.
<http://exiledpreacher.blogspot.com/2007/10/churchless-christians.html>
You should read this! seriously I think you could relate.
1. Means of grace
The means of grace are deployed in the context of the church. The Word is preached and read, corporate prayer is offered to God, hymns and psalms are sung in praise of the Lord's name. Baptism and the Lord's Supper are administered. God has ordained all these things to enable his people to grow in grace. Can we really do without them?
2. A community of love
The New Testament is constantly exhorting believers to love one another. This is not always easy, but it is the most basic principle of the Christian life. We develop and grow in maturity as we learn to live with other believers with their foibles and problems and they learn to live with us. This sometimes brings us heartache and pain. But we have no choice but to love God's people. We cannot do this at a distance. Love demands involvement and real fellowship. Some 'Churchless Christians' that I have met have been immature, impatient and argumentative. They cannot cope with others disagreeing with their dictates. Opting out of church life may be the easy option for them, but they are not facing up to their deep rooted spiritual problems.
3. The body of Christ
The church is the body of Christ. In this body there is unity as well as diversity. There are diversities of gifts and backgrounds. Also there will be differing levels of spiritual maturity and understanding. We must not try to obliterate the rich diversity of the church by insisting on drab uniformity. Learning to cope with and even appreciate the diversity of church life is an essential aspect of Christian discipleship. If a person professes to belong to Christ as the head, they should also want to belong to a local church, which is an expression of Christ's body. Our fellowship within the body of Christ is meant to be an anticipation of glory. If we can't get on with Christians in the here and now, do we really want to be with them in heaven?
Now, some Christians may stop going to church because they have been deeply hurt by an uncaring fellowship. The way to find healing and restoration is not to isolate yourself, but to get involved in a church where you will find pastoral care and loving acceptance from the people of God. If you are a 'Churchless Christian' on principle, I urge you to consider your ways. Staying at home and surfing the net is no substitute for belonging to a church. You won't find it easy to fit into a fellowship after years of isolation, but this is what you must attempt to do.
hvp05
Methodically disorganized
PsyOps
Pixelated
StoneThrower
New Member
Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus
Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus
I know a few people today who I would call, "lone ranger" Christians. They like Christ, but not the Church. They are opposed to "institutional" Christianity. They would rather be by themselves, and not in attendance at a local congregation. It's just them, their bibles, and the Holy Spirit.
However, I think that not only is this a dangerous position to be in, but also a denial of what Christianity is.
The Latin phrase "Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus" means: "Outside the Church there is no salvation". The Catholic Catechism on this issue rightly says, "all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body." This expression comes from the writings of Saint Cyprian of Carthage, a bishop of the 3rd century. The Eastern Orthodox, the Roman Catholics, and the Protestants all agree with this statement.
An prominent Eastern Orthodox bishop, Kallistos Ware, has expressed this teaching as follows:
"Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus. All the categorical strength and point of this aphorism lies in its tautology. Outside the Church there is no salvation, because salvation is the Church" (G. Florovsky, "Sobornost: the Catholicity of the Church", in The Church of God, p. 53). Does it therefore follow that anyone who is not visibly within the Church is necessarily damned? Of course not; still less does it follow that everyone who is visibly within the Church is necessarily saved. As Augustine wisely remarked: "How many sheep there are without, how many wolves within!" (Homilies on John, 45, 12) While there is no division between a "visible" and an "invisible Church", yet there may be members of the Church who are not visibly such, but whose membership is known to God alone. If anyone is saved, he must in some sense be a member of the Church; in what sense, we cannot always say."
Martin Luther said on this subject:
"Therefore he who would find Christ must first find the Church. How should we know where Christ and his faith were, if we did not know where his believers are? And he who would know anything of Christ must not trust himself nor build a bridge to heaven by his own reason; but he must go to the Church, attend and ask her. Now the Church is not wood and stone, but the company of believing people; one must hold to them, and see how they believe, live and teach; they surely have Christ in their midst. For outside of the Christian church there is no truth, no Christ, no salvation."
John Calvin, in the Institutes of the Christian Religion said, "beyond the pale of the Church no forgiveness of sins, no salvation, can be hoped for". Calvin wrote also that "those to whom God is a Father, the Church must also be a mother."
London Baptist Confessions of Faith that "the visible Church is the Kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ, the house and family of God, out of which there is no ordinary possibility of salvation."
Pondering Christ: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus
You are officially on ignore. And I don't even have JPC on ignore.
Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus
I know a few people today who I would call, "lone ranger" Christians. They like Christ, but not the Church. They are opposed to "institutional" Christianity. They would rather be by themselves, and not in attendance at a local congregation. It's just them, their bibles, and the Holy Spirit.
However, I think that not only is this a dangerous position to be in, but also a denial of what Christianity is.
The Latin phrase "Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus" means: "Outside the Church there is no salvation". The Catholic Catechism on this issue rightly says, "all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body." This expression comes from the writings of Saint Cyprian of Carthage, a bishop of the 3rd century. The Eastern Orthodox, the Roman Catholics, and the Protestants all agree with this statement.
An prominent Eastern Orthodox bishop, Kallistos Ware, has expressed this teaching as follows:
"Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus. All the categorical strength and point of this aphorism lies in its tautology. Outside the Church there is no salvation, because salvation is the Church" (G. Florovsky, "Sobornost: the Catholicity of the Church", in The Church of God, p. 53). Does it therefore follow that anyone who is not visibly within the Church is necessarily damned? Of course not; still less does it follow that everyone who is visibly within the Church is necessarily saved. As Augustine wisely remarked: "How many sheep there are without, how many wolves within!" (Homilies on John, 45, 12) While there is no division between a "visible" and an "invisible Church", yet there may be members of the Church who are not visibly such, but whose membership is known to God alone. If anyone is saved, he must in some sense be a member of the Church; in what sense, we cannot always say."
Martin Luther said on this subject:
"Therefore he who would find Christ must first find the Church. How should we know where Christ and his faith were, if we did not know where his believers are? And he who would know anything of Christ must not trust himself nor build a bridge to heaven by his own reason; but he must go to the Church, attend and ask her. Now the Church is not wood and stone, but the company of believing people; one must hold to them, and see how they believe, live and teach; they surely have Christ in their midst. For outside of the Christian church there is no truth, no Christ, no salvation."
John Calvin, in the Institutes of the Christian Religion said, "beyond the pale of the Church no forgiveness of sins, no salvation, can be hoped for". Calvin wrote also that "those to whom God is a Father, the Church must also be a mother."
London Baptist Confessions of Faith that "the visible Church is the Kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ, the house and family of God, out of which there is no ordinary possibility of salvation."
Pondering Christ: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus
Cheeky1
Yae warsh wif' wutr
I am in agreeance with PsyOps on the matter of attending church, perhaps, from a different viewpoint.
In my experience, the "best" churches (no church is or can be perfect, but a church can be very good!) are those that have not purchased land. I've attended a variety of churches that, after purchasing land and constructing a dedicated place of worship, change. The people are no longer the priority.
Before purchasing land, the churches' priority IS community. To recruit more members, money, power, whatever the reason....they want/need people/followers. This may very well be geniune in nature, but so is the beast. Once a church obtains an abundance of steady, cash flow, money becomes the priority and with it - the stress. Instead of allowing the community to help people, the church utilizes money to help people. ...much like what the U.S. government attempts to do now. It doesn't work in the long run - does it?
Some churches last...most wither. At the point when money becomes a priority, even for church membership, the church ceases to be a community and becomes the IRS; a micro-government cog. Why?...because the organization needs money to continue its operations..."forget about the people....we use them for money and will do whatever it takes to keep them here".
That felt more like a rant than anything....I once told two Jehovahs witnesses (at my doorstep) that I stand firm believing human beings have completely ****-up the intended purpose of 'organized religion'. That seemed to turn them off - I've never seen them again.
Faith is personal. Organized religion is SUPPOSED to be community.
In my experience, the "best" churches (no church is or can be perfect, but a church can be very good!) are those that have not purchased land. I've attended a variety of churches that, after purchasing land and constructing a dedicated place of worship, change. The people are no longer the priority.
Before purchasing land, the churches' priority IS community. To recruit more members, money, power, whatever the reason....they want/need people/followers. This may very well be geniune in nature, but so is the beast. Once a church obtains an abundance of steady, cash flow, money becomes the priority and with it - the stress. Instead of allowing the community to help people, the church utilizes money to help people. ...much like what the U.S. government attempts to do now. It doesn't work in the long run - does it?
Some churches last...most wither. At the point when money becomes a priority, even for church membership, the church ceases to be a community and becomes the IRS; a micro-government cog. Why?...because the organization needs money to continue its operations..."forget about the people....we use them for money and will do whatever it takes to keep them here".
That felt more like a rant than anything....I once told two Jehovahs witnesses (at my doorstep) that I stand firm believing human beings have completely ****-up the intended purpose of 'organized religion'. That seemed to turn them off - I've never seen them again.
Faith is personal. Organized religion is SUPPOSED to be community.
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Cheeky1
Yae warsh wif' wutr
...and on church membership.
I view membership as 'acceptance'. For this body of people to accept you, you must do this, this, and this.
Many churches have other reasons for membership. Some of them may very well good reasons. HOWEVER, if the pastor of a church of 200 people, doesn't know each and every attendee by name....membership doesn't matter.
Membership, typically, is a way for a 'member' to feel as if they are a part of something without actually doing any work to get there. This includes the host. This is one more step towards turning people into numbers to be shuffled, rather than human beings who want interaction.
This felt even more like a rant than the previous post.
Good day.
I view membership as 'acceptance'. For this body of people to accept you, you must do this, this, and this.
Many churches have other reasons for membership. Some of them may very well good reasons. HOWEVER, if the pastor of a church of 200 people, doesn't know each and every attendee by name....membership doesn't matter.
Membership, typically, is a way for a 'member' to feel as if they are a part of something without actually doing any work to get there. This includes the host. This is one more step towards turning people into numbers to be shuffled, rather than human beings who want interaction.
This felt even more like a rant than the previous post.
Good day.
StoneThrower
New Member
Repentance & Requesting Forgivness
All,
I want to appologige to PsyOps again, this time publically as well as to the board. I have been praying for him and this sistution and realized my sin in this.
I have taken the truth of Gods word a sword, and used it as a club. Instead of presenting the word its self, I did not use the word and it came accross as my opinion, it wasnt that what I said wasnt true, but I wrongly presented it.
I also took this thread off course and made it worthless. My intent was to evaluate the value of church membership, peoples veiws of it, and why we attend church, and made it personal with PsyOps. Also in doing so, I miss handeled that as well, the real issue isnt his worship habbits, its whether as two believers we agree on the authority of the word of God, and the Lordship of Christ in our lives. If we had come to agreement on that this other issue would have gone away. I missed the boat on this.
PsyOps, I want to publically ask you to forgive me for the way I mishandeled you, and this situtation, and Gods word.
Forum members, I like to repent, and ask you to forgive me for my sin and they way I miss handeled the discussion, the thread topic, and another forum member. My behavior was combative, and inapropiate, and I compromised the truth of Gods word.
Please forgive me
ST
PS if I am truely on ignore, I hope one of you will send this to PsyOps.
You are officially on ignore. And I don't even have JPC on ignore.
All,
I want to appologige to PsyOps again, this time publically as well as to the board. I have been praying for him and this sistution and realized my sin in this.
I have taken the truth of Gods word a sword, and used it as a club. Instead of presenting the word its self, I did not use the word and it came accross as my opinion, it wasnt that what I said wasnt true, but I wrongly presented it.
I also took this thread off course and made it worthless. My intent was to evaluate the value of church membership, peoples veiws of it, and why we attend church, and made it personal with PsyOps. Also in doing so, I miss handeled that as well, the real issue isnt his worship habbits, its whether as two believers we agree on the authority of the word of God, and the Lordship of Christ in our lives. If we had come to agreement on that this other issue would have gone away. I missed the boat on this.
PsyOps, I want to publically ask you to forgive me for the way I mishandeled you, and this situtation, and Gods word.
Forum members, I like to repent, and ask you to forgive me for my sin and they way I miss handeled the discussion, the thread topic, and another forum member. My behavior was combative, and inapropiate, and I compromised the truth of Gods word.
Please forgive me
ST
PS if I am truely on ignore, I hope one of you will send this to PsyOps.
hvp05
Methodically disorganized
PsyOps
Pixelated
I think you hit it quite well. My other experiences are that so many have become narrowly ideological. They focus on one aspect of the Gospel and demand that if you don’t comply with this your faith is in question. Stone epitomizes this with his/her one-dimensional thinking that going to church is a must or you’re being rebellious, irresponsible, and unrepentant; rather than realizing it’s the churches that are doing just that with their narrow dogmatic practices that stray from the bible. Placing expectations on the individual while ignoring what’s expected of our churches and especially their leaders.
One thing that dawned on me though… I don’t want to give the impression I am pointing a judgmental finger at people that go to church. People need to do what is in their best interest. I respect your choice to worship God in the way that moves you as long as if you’re claiming to be a Christian keep it biblical. So I am not criticizing anyone’s choice to go to church. I am only giving my reasons why I have very little trust in what our churches are doing today.
PsyOps
Pixelated
This message is hidden because StoneThrower is on your ignore list.
You did that on purpose didn't you
hvp05
Methodically disorganized
I was trying to help.
I should have known to not expect to find forgiveness in the Religion forum.
PsyOps
Pixelated
PsyOps
Pixelated
I was trying to help.
I should have known to not expect to find forgiveness in the Religion forum.
Cheap shot
Cheeky1
Yae warsh wif' wutr
Thank you for that. Consider it behind us.
@StoneThrower & PsyOps
Rock on!
You do realize the devil hates Rockn'roll, right? I saw it in a movie...it must be true
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dontknowwhy
New Member
all you have to do is show undying love & devotion to the Lord...
and the Lord sayeth unto his people..."if you love me, help me pass this jobs bill!!"
wait a minute....that wasn't the lord...
Oh yeah!!! that was the Messiah!!!
and the Lord sayeth unto his people..."if you love me, help me pass this jobs bill!!"
wait a minute....that wasn't the lord...
Oh yeah!!! that was the Messiah!!!