"What Bible Is The Vatican Reading?"

[libby]

It seems plain as day to some of us that it is symbolic of Israel, since in the Old Testament (and New) God's people are referred to as a woman.

Could not perhaps it have been included as an object lesson to us to take care of our own? And that Mary was now one of his disciples? Did not Jesus say that His disciples were His true mother and brothers, instead of His natural human family, when they came looking for Him?

It seems plain as day that you miss the plain meaning of things and instead choose to go light years beyond it for the sake of agreement with your church institution.

It is understandable though with the pressure that is applied from the Roman Catholic church that you would be scared to disagree with it, since it is preached that they are the only church with the "means of salvation." (that is not meant as condescending)

I think Mary is Israel. How is it that you can reject that the woman in Rev. 12 is Mary? Both she and Israel gave birth to Christ.
What about all the Scriptures tell us about how we are to treat and/or take car of our parents? Is Christ exempt from this? No, he perfected it. He came to earth as one of us to be the perfect example of all that the Father wanted.
I'm not even remotely "scared", because even if I were mistaken, I believe God searches our hearts and knows we have pursued Him with all of our hearts, souls and minds.
I'm also not the one who says the RCC is the only means of salvation. I believe that it through the merits of Christ that anyone is saved, regardless of their particular affliation; this goes back to God knowing what we tried to do to pursue/please and live for Him.
As for Jesus' family being supernatural vs. natural, it is not either/or in Mary's case, but both. She was His first disciple at the Annunciation, and she was there until His death.
Perhaps you reject what is as plain as day because it reeks of the RCC?
Guess we'll all know when it's time.

 

[libby]

Honoring Parents in the Old Testament
The term “honor” is one that has a kind of archaic ring to it, one that is seldom used in everyday speech. It is therefore necessary for us to come to terms with what is meant by “honor” as it is used in the Bible.22 We will first look at honor in its broader usage, and then narrow its use down to the honoring of parents as commanded in the Old Testament.

(1) Giving honor is personal. In the Bible, only persons are honored, not things. We do not honor paintings or great works of art, or things of value, we honor only people. We would also say that honor is rendered by people to people. More specifically, honor is bestowed by a person to a person. Honor cannot be self-designated, but must come from another: “And no one takes the honor to himself, but receives it when he is called by God, even as Aaron was” (Hebrews 5:4).

(2) Giving honor is preferential. When we honor someone, we distinguish them above someone else. Honoring someone sets them above others. “… give preference to one another in honor” (Romans 12:10). Honoring parents means to think highly of them, in contrast to esteeming them lightly: “Therefore the Lord God of Israel declares, ‘I did indeed say that your house and the house of your father should walk before Me forever’; but now the Lord declares, ‘Far be it from Me—for those who honor Me I will honor, and those who despise Me will be lightly esteemed’” (1 Samuel 2:30).23

(3) Honor is positional. When people are honored in the Bible, they are honored largely because of the position they hold. Those whom we are commanded to honor in the Bible are most often those who hold a certain position of distinction. God is honored because He is the Sovereign God of the Universe. Kings, rulers, elders, and masters are all to be given honor. Parents, too, are to be honored for their position in the family. Thus honor has to do with the position, power, and dignity that a person has above and beyond others.

(4) Giving honor is practical. Honoring another requires more than mere lip service: “Then the Lord said, ‘Because this people draw near with their words And honor Me with their lip service, But they remove their hearts far from Me, And their reverence for Me consists of tradition learned by rote’” (Isaiah 29:13). That honor which God requires of man is an honor which translates into very practical terms, whether it be directed Godward or manward.

(5) Honor is public.24 The act of honoring parents begins with an attitude of respect for them. Thus we read in the Law, “Every one of you shall reverence his mother and his father, and you shall keep My Sabbaths; I am the Lord your God” (Leviticus 19:3). The outflow of the attitude of reverence is the action of honoring, and action which is generally public. Thus, both husband and children are exhorted to give the godly woman praise in a public place:

Interesting that this comes from bible.org
I'm sure everyone would agree with this until it comes to Mary.

 

[Zguy28]

I think Mary is Israel. How is it that you can reject that the woman in Rev. 12 is Mary? Both she and Israel gave birth to Christ.
What about all the Scriptures tell us about how we are to treat and/or take car of our parents? Is Christ exempt from this? No, he perfected it. He came to earth as one of us to be the perfect example of all that the Father wanted.
I'm not even remotely "scared", because even if I were mistaken, I believe God searches our hearts and knows we have pursued Him with all of our hearts, souls and minds.
I'm also not the one who says the RCC is the only means of salvation. I believe that it through the merits of Christ that anyone is saved, regardless of their particular affliation; this goes back to God knowing what we tried to do to pursue/please and live for Him.
As for Jesus' family being supernatural vs. natural, it is not either/or in Mary's case, but both. She was His first disciple at the Annunciation, and she was there until His death.

Would you agree that either way, yours or mine, He fulfilled the command to honor His mother?

Perhaps you reject what is as plain as day because it reeks of the RCC?
Guess we'll all know when it's time.

Actually I do not. As I stated in another post somewhere in this whole shooting match, I actually considered the Roman and Eastern Orthodox churches in my early years as a Christian. I considered the merits of their claim to apostolic succession and weighed them against who they were, their history, and what they believed on essential and non-essential doctrines. Rome fell first because I did not find sufficient evidence for Roman primacy. Then I considered the Eastern church and found them closer, but still not what I read in the Scriptures. I finally decided to stay with evangelicalism, although I went from being an Arminian to a Calvinist in the process.

 

[Zguy28]

Honoring Parents in the Old Testament
The term “honor” is one that has a kind of archaic ring to it, one that is seldom used in everyday speech. It is therefore necessary for us to come to terms with what is meant by “honor” as it is used in the Bible.22 We will first look at honor in its broader usage, and then narrow its use down to the honoring of parents as commanded in the Old Testament.

(1) Giving honor is personal. In the Bible, only persons are honored, not things. We do not honor paintings or great works of art, or things of value, we honor only people. We would also say that honor is rendered by people to people. More specifically, honor is bestowed by a person to a person. Honor cannot be self-designated, but must come from another: “And no one takes the honor to himself, but receives it when he is called by God, even as Aaron was” (Hebrews 5:4).

(2) Giving honor is preferential. When we honor someone, we distinguish them above someone else. Honoring someone sets them above others. “… give preference to one another in honor” (Romans 12:10). Honoring parents means to think highly of them, in contrast to esteeming them lightly: “Therefore the Lord God of Israel declares, ‘I did indeed say that your house and the house of your father should walk before Me forever’; but now the Lord declares, ‘Far be it from Me—for those who honor Me I will honor, and those who despise Me will be lightly esteemed’” (1 Samuel 2:30).23

(3) Honor is positional. When people are honored in the Bible, they are honored largely because of the position they hold. Those whom we are commanded to honor in the Bible are most often those who hold a certain position of distinction. God is honored because He is the Sovereign God of the Universe. Kings, rulers, elders, and masters are all to be given honor. Parents, too, are to be honored for their position in the family. Thus honor has to do with the position, power, and dignity that a person has above and beyond others.

(4) Giving honor is practical. Honoring another requires more than mere lip service: “Then the Lord said, ‘Because this people draw near with their words And honor Me with their lip service, But they remove their hearts far from Me, And their reverence for Me consists of tradition learned by rote’” (Isaiah 29:13). That honor which God requires of man is an honor which translates into very practical terms, whether it be directed Godward or manward.

(5) Honor is public.24 The act of honoring parents begins with an attitude of respect for them. Thus we read in the Law, “Every one of you shall reverence his mother and his father, and you shall keep My Sabbaths; I am the Lord your God” (Leviticus 19:3). The outflow of the attitude of reverence is the action of honoring, and action which is generally public. Thus, both husband and children are exhorted to give the godly woman praise in a public place:

Interesting that this comes from bible.org
I'm sure everyone would agree with this until it comes to Mary.

Not at all. Mary is to be honored. She is the mother of Jesus, the God-bearer. She is highly honored and her response to God in the Magnificat is a high example to us all.

Don't mischaracterize our beliefs. Even Starman has agreed she was blessed tremendously, and given honor. If you notice, his argument all along has been strictly limited to disagreeing with the supernatural honor that the RCC believes was given to her.

 

[libby]

Would you agree that either way, yours or mine, He fulfilled the command to honor His mother?
Actually I do not. As I stated in another post somewhere in this whole shooting match, I actually considered the Roman and Eastern Orthodox churches in my early years as a Christian. I considered the merits of their claim to apostolic succession and weighed them against who they were, their history, and what they believed on essential and non-essential doctrines. Rome fell first because I did not find sufficient evidence for Roman primacy. Then I considered the Eastern church and found them closer, but still not what I read in the Scriptures. I finally decided to stay with evangelicalism, although I went from being an Arminian to a Calvinist in the process.

Absolutely. And based on who He is, He is able to give her so much more than any of us could give our mothers.

And just because the merits for apostolic succession did not convince you of it's authenticity, does not mean that it is not true.
Now apostolic succession is not my area of expertise. But I found the prophetic keys in Isaiah and establishment of "office" enough to convince me the keys were, indeed, to be passed down to the next office holder.
Not to mention my belief that Scripture is not meant for personal interpretation, which could not be stated more explicitly.
Not to mention the hundreds of years before the printing press and where that would have left most Christians.
Not to mention the myriad interpretations individuals come up with as a result of pre-conceived ideas and personal biases.

Well, you get the idea.

 

[Zguy28]

Absolutely. And based on who He is, He is able to give her so much more than any of us could give our mothers.

And just because the merits for apostolic succession did not convince you of it's authenticity, does not mean that it is not true.
Now apostolic succession is not my area of expertise. But I found the prophetic keys in Isaiah and establishment of "office" enough to convince me the keys were, indeed, to be passed down to the next office holder.
Not to mention my belief that Scripture is not meant for personal interpretation, which could not be stated more explicitly.
Not to mention the hundreds of years before the printing press and where that would have left most Christians.
Not to mention the myriad interpretations individuals come up with as a result of pre-conceived ideas and personal biases.

Well, you get the idea.

Oh, don't get me wrong. I wish ecumenicalism just as much, or more, than most. However, I also agree with Augustine's quote "In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty; in all things, charity."

 

[libby]

Not at all. Mary is to be honored. She is the mother of Jesus, the God-bearer. She is highly honored and her response to God in the Magnificat is a high example to us all.

Don't mischaracterize our beliefs. Even Starman has agreed she was blessed tremendously, and given honor. If you notice, his argument all along has been strictly limited to disagreeing with the supernatural honor that the RCC believes was given to her.

No, I disagree that SM honors her at all. SM would not give honor to a dead woman. That is, after all, what she is to his thinking, right? Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's what I've been hearing out of him.

Let's forget about us honoring her for a second. What about the honor that Jesus would have given her? God the Father is not a man of flesh, He is a spirit. Jesus' own DNA that was shed on the Cross came from Mary, period. Right? Is she somehow less His mother because God was His Father?
If Jesus was truly man how would He have regarded His mother, and in what way would He give her glory to fulfill the commandment?
He did not make her divine, but He made her the most perfect human vessel. If you could have made your own mother, which God would have done at the foundation of the world, would you not have protected her from Satan? Would you have allowed Satan to have dominion over your own mother for even a second?
Please hear me when I say this is not about who Mary is; it is about who Jesus is!

 

[PsyOps]

Her Son died for every man, right? If your son died to save other people, would you also then desire that every soul gets to Heaven? I mean, I wouldn't want my son's suffering and death to be in vain.

I never thought of our salvation in the context of a zero-sum game in that way. If you look at biblical history is was never an all-or-nothing arrangement with God. God gave us free will knowing full well man would chose to sin. It was apparent that he created us with eternal life as long as we remained in Him. Once man decided to separate himself from God (sin), God had no choice but to condemn us to death. God gave man plenty of chances to change in the days of Noah, but through rejection of God everyone died except Noah and his family. Sodom and Gomorrah is another example. There are a lot of examples where God decided that certain people would die. And this knowledge extends into realizing that not everyone will be saved. I never considered Jesus’ salvation for us to be in vain in this context; just because some will not be saved. I’ve come to believe that even if one were saved, Jesus’ existence would not be in vain.

You do not agree that the woman in Rev. 12 is Mary, but it's as plain as day to me. The rest of the followers of Christ are her children, too. Not to mention that some of Jesus' final words were, "Behold, your mother." What is the relevance to our salvation if Jesus' made Mary only John's mother? Why would that be included in Scripture? He was speaking to us all. We are a family, all of us, united by Flesh and Blood.

I never said the woman in Revelation wasn’t Mary; I simply said that the bible doesn’t specify this. Your belief that she is, is a guess. I don’t think it’s of any consequence to our salvation one way or the other.

Do you think that Jesus perfectly fulfilled the commandments of God? All of them??
As I already said, His Life was about giving Glory to His Father, but why do Protestants insist He would not have given glory to His mother, too? Can her glory be the same as the Father's? No, because she is not divine. But in her human capacity that she would be given all that a human being can have. We have all been made partakers of the divine nature according to 2 Peter because Jesus is not the shallow, selfish God that SM wants us to believe He is. He shares His glory with us because He loves us. Same way you would with your children.

I think Jesus IS the fulfillment of God’s commandments. I’m not sure what you mean by Jesus giving glory to Mary. What sort of glory?

We believe that Mary is praying for us as we would pray for each other. The prayers of a righteous man is very efficacious according to James 5. We believe she is the most righteous woman that ever lived, and that her prayers would be given great weight. Before you challenge whether or not she could change Jesus' mind, I would ask you as many Catholics before have, what then is the point of us praying for one another if it has no effect? We pray for the person to come around by His Grace.

“As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one” – Romans 3:10

When I pray, I don’t ask for things. I ask for God’s will to be done and to understand this will. I pray to get closer to God, not to ask for things that would benefit me. THAT, to me, is the purpose of prayer. Nothing we can pray FOR will change God’s will. I pray in the context of the "Lord's Prayer": forgive, provide us our NEEDS (food), to be strong against sin. So I don’t think any one prayer is given more weight than another. God is so immense, so infinitely powerful that, from His point of view, no one – not even Mary – holds anymore weight in prayer than someone else. We are all the same to Him. The differentiating factor is whether we have accepted Christ as our savior or not. When He looks at us He sees sinners – ALL OF US, even Mary. When He sees us, He sees who has accepted Jesus and who hasn’t.

Whether Mary is "actively talking" to Jesus, I would say, "I don't know". What I believe about communication in Heaven is only that everyone is completely united to the Will of God, and that everyone is actively praying for the salvation of the world.
I do not believe we are separated by death from our loved ones. I believe they are more alive than us and partakers of the divine nature because He has allowed it.
Everything I have said is based on Scriptures, whether my Protestant bretheren agree with the interpretation or not.
My only request is that you (not you personally, Psy. "you" collective) stop calling our beliefs anti-Biblical; although I know SM will not have the respect for us to offer that courtesy. Our beliefs most certainly are found in the Bible.

Now you’re taking us into a whole new discussion. I want to stick to Mary and her influence in salvation. I don’t think I got a direct answer… Is Mary’s influence through simply through you being inspired by her role as the birth mother of Jesus, or do you believe she actually talks to Jesus and convinces Him of certain people’s salvation that might not otherwise be saved?

 

[libby]

Now you’re taking us into a whole new discussion. I want to stick to Mary and her influence in salvation. I don’t think I got a direct answer… Is Mary’s influence through simply through you being inspired by her role as the birth mother of Jesus, or do you believe she actually talks to Jesus and convinces Him of certain people’s salvation that might not otherwise be saved?

[/QUOTE]

Didn't mean to go in a different direction. I guess it all kind of dovetails together.

Well, how do you pray for the salvation of others? Perhaps it's entirely different from the way I would pray.
Like you, I do not pray for material things/gratification. I pray that I will choose God above all things and people, and that I will always be ready to do His Will. I pray that certain people will repent of their sins and do the will of God. Lastly, I pray that Jesus will have mercy on me, and every other sinner in the world. That last part is the most like what I imagine Mary to be doing; pleading for His Mercy on poor sinners.
DH just got home so I'm gonna go see what plans he has for the rest of the afternoon. I'll get back to you.

 

[Bird Dog]

The Bible indicates that through religious deceptions "Most" people will place their faith and trust in man-made religious doctrines. These misguided teachings take 100% focus off of praising and glorifying the New Testament Jesus and dilute the Power of Christ by giving credit and reverence to others. Followers of these false teachings are taught to believe in a counterfeit saviour rather than the True Lord and Saviour of mankind. Those are the ones who follow another gospel and another "Jesus".

There Is Only One Truth.

So what this means is that everyone who does not believe like you is going to Hell. Just say it. It is what you have been preaching in your false prophet way.
Just say it, you keep avoiding it.

 

[PsyOps]

Didn't mean to go in a different direction. I guess it all kind of dovetails together.

Well, how do you pray for the salvation of others? Perhaps it's entirely different from the way I would pray.
Like you, I do not pray for material things/gratification. I pray that I will choose God above all things and people, and that I will always be ready to do His Will. I pray that certain people will repent of their sins and do the will of God. Lastly, I pray that Jesus will have mercy on me, and every other sinner in the world. That last part is the most like what I imagine Mary to be doing; pleading for His Mercy on poor sinners.
DH just got home so I'm gonna go see what plans he has for the rest of the afternoon. I'll get back to you.

Again, it’s my belief that if you are praying for things – and salvation is a thing – you are assuming that you can influence God’s will. Can we really manipulate God’s will? Can Mary have any influence in this? I just don’t think so.

“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them…” – John 6:44

 

[libby]

Again, it’s my belief that if you are praying for things – and salvation is a thing – you are assuming that you can influence God’s will. Can we really manipulate God’s will? Can Mary have any influence in this? I just don’t think so.

So you don't pray for the salvation of others?

 

[toppick08]

“The Church recruited people who had been starched and ironed before they were washed.”
John Wesley quote

 

[PsyOps]

So you don't pray for the salvation of others?

I spent a good many years praying for my dad's salvation. He was an adament atheist. He never really wanted to talk about it much. It annoyed him to have someone tell him about salvation and God. He died not saved. No matter how much my brother and I prayed for his salvation it just never happened.

I know people who had family members with cancer, and they prayed endlessly for that person's healing. It just didn't happen. It was not in God's will that this person be healed.

I have come to the reality that praying for such things do not come with our prayer for it. If it is God's will, it will happen and our praying for it to happen will not MAKE it happen. It is my desire that everyone be saved, but I know the reality it's just not going to happen. I pray for God's will to be done on this earth and in heaven and all the things (good and bad) that will come with it. I accept that some will be saved and some will not. I accept that God's is often 'NO'.

So, in short, I do not pray for someone's salvation, not in the context that i am asking for it with any expectation it will happen. I pray that God have mercy on all of us. I converse with God that He help me understand His will and accept His answer no matter what it is. As much as it pains me, I accept my dad will not be in heaven when I get there (God willing). This is just the way it is.

 

[libby]

I spent a good many years praying for my dad's salvation. He was an adament atheist. He never really wanted to talk about it much. It annoyed him to have someone tell him about salvation and God. He died not saved. No matter how much my brother and I prayed for his salvation it just never happened.

I know people who had family members with cancer, and they prayed endlessly for that person's healing. It just didn't happen. It was not in God's will that this person be healed.

I have come to the reality that praying for such things do not come with our prayer for it. If it is God's will, it will happen and our praying for it to happen will not MAKE it happen. It is my desire that everyone be saved, but I know the reality it's just not going to happen. I pray for God's will to be done on this earth and in heaven and all the things (good and bad) that will come with it. I accept that some will be saved and some will not. I accept that God's is often 'NO'.

So, in short, I do not pray for someone's salvation, not in the context that i am asking for it with any expectation it will happen. I pray that God have mercy on all of us. I converse with God that He help me understand His will and accept His answer no matter what it is. As much as it pains me, I accept my dad will not be in heaven when I get there (God willing). This is just the way it is.

I think this is one of the saddest things I've ever read. Psy, do you know what might have been in your dad's heart at his last moments? Whether he died suddenly, or after an illness, do you think it's possible that he may have recognized the True and Living God in his final moments?
My own dad was not conscious for his last 5 days or so. About 6 hours before he died he appeared to be distressed (he was a churchgoing man, but not demonstrative about his faith). We were all having a prayer vigil in his last 48 hours. Anyway, as he was appearing distressed we stepped up the prayer efforts and we held a crucifix in front of his face, in case he should open his eyes. (which he didn't) At one point he arched his back as if trying to raise himself up, and said, "I love you, Jesus. I love you, Jesus. I love you, Jesus." Three times, just like that. He laid down, and that was the last time he spoke. He died about 5 hours later. To this day I consider that a visit Jesus gave him in his final hours to help him persevere until the end.
Do you know that your dad didn't receive such a gift? Do you really have no hope that in God's Infinite Mercy and Love, Love which does not desire anyone to be lost, that your father may not have turned to Christ?
I truly beleive that God takes each one of us from this earth at the most opportune time for our salvation; I do not believe in a gotcha moment.

Perhaps like those workers in the vineyard (do I have the right parable) your dad came at the end of the day, but still received the same reward?
There is always hope with God, Psy!

 

[Starman3000m]

So what this means is that everyone who does not believe like you is going to Hell. Just say it. It is what you have been preaching in your false prophet way.
Just say it, you keep avoiding it.

It's the Holy Bible that makes it very clear of who is going to Hell. Those who by faith believe in God's Plan of Salvation and receive Christ as Lord and Saviour are spared God's wrath. Those who reject God's Free Offer have a terrible eternal fate awaiting them. Like many others, I am just passing the warning along as part of the Great Commission that Jesus asks of His followers.

John 5

25: Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
26: For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27: And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28: Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29: And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Your soul presently either belongs to Satan or belongs to God. If you do not know Christ as your personal Lord and Saviour and want to receive the Free Gift of Salvation for your soul then all you have to do is evaluate your life and decide if you want what Jesus offers. This offer is given to mankind; The choice is up to you.

Here are a few of Christ's Promises:

Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light (Matthew11:28-30)

And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. (John 10:28)

Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.
(John14:27)

And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. (Luke23:43)

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (Romans 8:1)

Would you like the New Testament Jesus to be your Lord and Saviour?

There Is Only One Truth

 

[PsyOps]

I think this is one of the saddest things I've ever read. Psy, do you know what might have been in your dad's heart at his last moments? Whether he died suddenly, or after an illness, do you think it's possible that he may have recognized the True and Living God in his final moments?

My dad had heart disease and died a very slow death. Even to his last day he was very aware and his mind was pretty sharp; even though he was taking morphine. He made the decision to not take any more treatment to extend his life. He didn’t want to spend his last months in and out of the hospital. Even when he was facing his known demise he refused to accept God. But certainly, at the moment he knew his life was passing he could made a split decision to accept God. But knowing my dad and his strong-headedness, I doubt it. But I’ve always stated that it’s not up to me. Nothing would make me happier than to see dad in paradise when I get there.

Do you know that your dad didn't receive such a gift? Do you really have no hope that in God's Infinite Mercy and Love, Love which does not desire anyone to be lost, that your father may not have turned to Christ?
I truly beleive that God takes each one of us from this earth at the most opportune time for our salvation; I do not believe in a gotcha moment.

My dad was a very loving and compassionate man. He always extended out his hand to people that were in need, even when he didn’t have much to give; he gave all he could. I don’t know if dad received the gift. I do know that not everyone does; and dad is probably one of them. I know my dad and his stubbornness.

Perhaps like those workers in the vineyard (do I have the right parable) your dad came at the end of the day, but still received the same reward?
There is always hope with God, Psy!

I believe in hope; but it doesn’t delude me into thinking God will always give us a positive answer. I do not believe that we can change God’s mind about his will. Things will be what they will be. We are individuals and can only control our own destiny.