StoneThrower
New Member
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What Exactly is Calvinism? Why All the Fuss?"
- Thread starter StoneThrower
- Start date
ItalianScallion
Harley Rider
Why DOESN'T it surprise me that you'd take the word of a Presbyterian Irish man over God's? 
No wonder the church is where it is today...
No wonder the church is where it is today...
Starman3000m
New Member
Calvinism negates the Gospel of Salvation that was proclaimed by The New Testament Jesus Christ and which was entrusted to His Disciples in The Great Commission.
Additionally, Calvinism takes the blame away from Satan for deceiving mankind and places the blame on God for sending people to Hell through "His own design." Through his teaching, Calvin used Bible text much like Satan did in the Garden of Eden to make God out to be "the bad guy".
Herein is the Gospel Message of The New Testament Jesus Christ unto all mankind. It is then a matter of choice for how one individually chooses to live; for the Light of God or for the darkness of the world:
Additionally, Calvinism takes the blame away from Satan for deceiving mankind and places the blame on God for sending people to Hell through "His own design." Through his teaching, Calvin used Bible text much like Satan did in the Garden of Eden to make God out to be "the bad guy".
Herein is the Gospel Message of The New Testament Jesus Christ unto all mankind. It is then a matter of choice for how one individually chooses to live; for the Light of God or for the darkness of the world:
Zguy28
New Member
And yet you want everybody to take your word for it.Why DOESN'T it surprise me that you'd take the word of a Presbyterian Irish man over God's?
Guess what, you are wrong on some things, and God's word says so. Sorry to rain on your respective parades.
Also, you never answered me, why do you have such a problem with listening to what other people even have to say?
Are you infallible?
StoneThrower
New Member
Why DOESN'T it surprise me that you'd take the word of a Presbyterian Irish man over God's?
Hi IS,
That’s a logical Fallacy.
First off I have/had no idea what ZGuy is, I had thought he was a reformed Baptist but that’s really irrelevant.
Secondly your showing your attitude towards me because I have privately ask you to exam yourself to see if you are in the truth, as your behavior is not that of a healthy Christian and also because I have taken a few subtle shoots at you recently.
Thirdly who says its Zguys word over the word of God? Just because you have a Pentecostal background that doesn’t mean your reading is correct, your reading the text with a presupposition that their doctrine is correct and rejecting the more prevalent and common understandings of scripture.
I am sorry but I cant let you get away speaking factually, when in reality its just your opinion.
I will leave you with this verse and ask you seriously consider it and the motives for your behavior. Maybe its time a little accountability is put in place! Feel free to hold me to the same standard!
1 Timothy 4:16 ESV
Keep a close watch on yourself and on the teaching. Persist in this, for by so doing you will save both yourself and your hearers.
Zguy28
New Member
Starman, if you truly believe that when you say Calvinism "negates the Gospel", that it is TRUTH, then Calvinists are not only heretics, but we are not Christians at all.
Are you prepared to condemn all Calvinists or those who hold to the same views in antiquity such as Augustine?
If so, you condemn the following men to Hell:
Johnathan Edwards
Alistair Begg
J.I. Packer
Mark Devers
Thabiti Anyabwile
Kevin DeYoung
David Platt
Ligon Duncan
Warren Wiersbe
C. J. Mahaney
Carl F. H. Henry
Charles Spurgeon
Don Carson
James Petigru Boyce
James White
John MacArthur
Robert Murray M'Cheyne
John Gill
John Dagg
John Piper
Joshua Harris
Leonhard Euler
Martyn Lloyd-Jones
Al Mohler
Wayne Grudem
William Carey (Father of Baptist Missions)
Adoniram Judson
Eric Liddell (from Chariots of Fire)
Cornelius Van Til
John Owen
George Whitefield
John Bunyan (author of Pilgrims Progress)
Thomas Watson
Thomas Manton
RC Sproul
Thomas Brooks
Matthew Henry
All the rest of the Puritans
All Presbyterian churches
Half the Southern Baptist churches
Many evangelical Anglicans
The list goes on...
Are you prepared to condemn all Calvinists or those who hold to the same views in antiquity such as Augustine?
If so, you condemn the following men to Hell:
Johnathan Edwards
Alistair Begg
J.I. Packer
Mark Devers
Thabiti Anyabwile
Kevin DeYoung
David Platt
Ligon Duncan
Warren Wiersbe
C. J. Mahaney
Carl F. H. Henry
Charles Spurgeon
Don Carson
James Petigru Boyce
James White
John MacArthur
Robert Murray M'Cheyne
John Gill
John Dagg
John Piper
Joshua Harris
Leonhard Euler
Martyn Lloyd-Jones
Al Mohler
Wayne Grudem
William Carey (Father of Baptist Missions)
Adoniram Judson
Eric Liddell (from Chariots of Fire)
Cornelius Van Til
John Owen
George Whitefield
John Bunyan (author of Pilgrims Progress)
Thomas Watson
Thomas Manton
RC Sproul
Thomas Brooks
Matthew Henry
All the rest of the Puritans
All Presbyterian churches
Half the Southern Baptist churches
Many evangelical Anglicans
The list goes on...
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Starman3000m
New Member
Um...First of all, there is no safety in numbers. Just because many have been indoctrinated to believe one thing does not make it the truth. For example, there are 1.3 Billion Muslims on the wrong path; there are 1 Billion Catholics who believe Mary reigns as Queen of Heaven, helps people get into Heaven and that Jesus sends people to a spiritual half-way house before they can enter Heaven! Several Million Mormons believe Jesus is the spirit brother of Satan and has many wives; Millions of others follow other false religions and teachings of humanist thinkers. So, the list you provided is miniscule in comparison.
As you may recall, I have stated that Calvinism negates the Gospel Message of John 3:16-21 among others where The Message is that God loves all mankind and wants no one to perish. I have stated that Calvinism negates that Message by inferring that God does not want all to come to repentance and be saved and that Jesus only calls certain people to come to Him for God's Saving Grace and excludes others whom He will not even consider because He already predstined them to be hell-bound from the beginning!
The Bible is clear that God calls all mankind and it is also clear that not all will respond because of their own refusal to change their wayward ways. If you have repented of this world and trusted Christ as your personal Lord and Saviour through faith and have been born-again of the Spirit, as Jesus said one must be, then according to the Bible you are a Child of God. To proclaim that others do not have that same opportunity except for only a select few is to change the Gospel Message of The Great Commission and calls into question God's Great White Throne Judgement by believing it will be a "kangaroo court".
Additionally, I have stated that John Calvin and the "council" of Calvinists who persecuted, ex-communicated and burned people at the stake for not accepting the "Calvinist doctrine" is not an example of what a born-again Chlid of God nor person led by the Holy Spirit of God would even think of doing.
The RCC engaged in such persecutions, excommunications and Inquisitions and from what it appears, John Calvin (and early Calvinists) did likewise.
As I have also stated before, Calvinism takes the blame off of Satan and makes God out to be the "bad guy".
The question you are asking me should be taken before the Lord Jesus Christ for your answer as He will be the Judge of all mankind and He foreknew who would respond to His Call and who would reject His Call.
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Zguy28
New Member
They are all evangelical Christians.
You missed the point entirely. Not surprising.
Does it? Where have I, as a Calvinist, said this?
God DOES love all of mankind. And God does not WANT any to perish.
God also loves HIS glory. More than anything else. Even people.
It is why Paul writes (under inspiration of the Holy Spirit) that "What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?" (Romans 9:22-24)
You've mis-stated and are ignorant not only of Calvinism, but of mankind's natural fallen state as explained throughout the Scripture. Man is totally unable to choose the light because he walks in darkness, loves the darkness, and cannot even comprehend light.
1 Corinthians 2:14 - The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.
2 Corinthians 4:3-4 - our gospel is veiled... to those who are perishing. In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
1 Corinthians 1:18,21-24 - For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles
Deuteronomy 29:2-4 - And Moses summoned all Israel and said to them: "You have seen all that the Lord did before your eyes in the land of Egypt, to Pharaoh and to all his servants and to all his land, the great trials that your eyes saw, the signs, and those great wonders. But to this day the Lord has not given you a heart to understand or eyes to see or ears to hear."
Matthew 11:27 - "no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him."
John 3:27 - John answered, "A person cannot receive even one thing unless it is given him from heaven."
John 14:16-17 - "And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him."
John 1:12-13 - But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
John 6:44,65 - "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day." And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”
Romans 9:16 - So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.
Romans 11:35-36 - "Or who has given a gift to him that he might be repaid?" For from him and through him and to him are all things.
1 Corinthians 1:30 - And because of him you are in Christ Jesus
Philippians 2:13 - for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
And how does what I believe deny this?
All have opportunity. Not all have mercy.
You believe the same thing, EXCEPT, you believe it is based on foreknowledge. If something is known to come to pass, for certain (God's knowledge is certain, correct?), then how can man really be free as you proclaim?
I believe how you "persecute" people (Trying to tie Calvinism to Islam? Really?) for not accepting the "Starman's doctrine", is not an example of what a born-again Child of God nor person led by the Holy Spirit of God would even think of doing. My 2 cents.
Maybe they did. I wasn't there. God will judge their actions in righteousness.
You are confusing it with Hyper-Calvinism. These are characteristics of hyper-Calvinism:
"- that God is the author of sin and of evil
- that men have no will of their own, and secondary causes are of no effect
- that it is wrong to evangelize
- that men who have once sincerely professed belief are saved regardless of what they later do
- that God does not command everyone to repent
- that the grace of God does not work for the betterment of all men
- that saving faith is equivalent to belief in the doctrine of predestination
- that only Calvinists are Christians (Neo-gnostic Calvinism"
You might to occasionally talk to Him yourself as well. Perhaps to get some clarity?
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Starman3000m
New Member
Okay, Zguy - you have stated your position and I have stated mine. This debate has been going on long enough and there is no point to continue because you have made your choice and I have made mine on which to believe about God's Plan of Salvation being offered to mankind.
I will always believe that God calls all mankind to repentance and lets individuals make their choice of whether to repent or not. In so doing, I will always believe that when God's Offer of Salvation is made, He foreknew each individual before they were born and foreknew what decision they would make when called. I will always believe that at the Great White Throne Judgment those who are condemned to eternal death will be condemned because of their rejection of God's Plan of Salvation that was offered through the Atoning Blood of Jesus Christ, as mentioned in the Holy Bible.
I will always believe that God calls all mankind to repentance and lets individuals make their choice of whether to repent or not. In so doing, I will always believe that when God's Offer of Salvation is made, He foreknew each individual before they were born and foreknew what decision they would make when called. I will always believe that at the Great White Throne Judgment those who are condemned to eternal death will be condemned because of their rejection of God's Plan of Salvation that was offered through the Atoning Blood of Jesus Christ, as mentioned in the Holy Bible.
Zguy28
New Member
I agree we should stop debating. I actually never wanted a debate to begin with. I like reasoned dialog, not debate. If you recall, this whole "debate" started with me stating my theological views to UNA in response to a question and then I roundly got yelled at with "CONTEXT,CONTEXT, CONTEXT!" and "ME! I MADE THE CHOICE, NOT GOD!" or something similar. From there it evolved into you trying to associate Calvinism with Islam, you attacking a 500 year old dead man's character and judging his salvation, and when confronted with Scripture ad nauseum you respond with "I still believe that my God..." and "Calvinism negates the gospel!"
Now, I still don't think you understand what Reformed theology actually is, which means I have done a poor job explaining it. Shame on me for that.
Of course. Calvinists agree. Most of us just don't base it on bad exegesis of 2 Peter 3:8.
Of course. Calvinists agree. God is omniscient. We just believe that said foreknowledge does not decide His actions, but rather His free choice, whatever the reason may be. All we know is that God ALWAYS chooses what brings Him the most glory.
Again, Calvinists agree. Bible is clear on this, people are condemned for sin and for rejecting Jesus.
1 Tim. 1 says Christ died for all. No arguing that. Never have.
We differ on what some of the nature of the atonement was and what actually was accomplished at it. I don't think either of us deny that the Atonement accomplished salvation for some (whether they are unconditionally elected or conditionally elected) or that it was a substitutionary death for all men, especially for those who believe.
StoneThrower
New Member
Hi Starman,
Do you believe in total depravity?
Isnt God just for just sparing anyone? much less millions after all he's not giving us what we deserve.
Do you only see election as individual and not as corporate?
Getting back to the atonnement issue.
Do you agree that Hyberboyle is used in scripture.
Have you studied the Greek and Paul's normative use of the word world or better yet the majority of the New Testaments normative use or world.
Is Jacob I loved and Esau I hated offensive to you?
Starman3000m
New Member
Not offensive at all; God foreknew the choice that would be made when Esau chose to give up his birthright for a bowl of stew. It is the analogy of carnal vs spiritual. Same as what is represented in the Cain and Abel account - doing what pleases God. Man has that choice when presented a decision of which way to go.
Starman3000m
New Member
I agree we should stop debating...
We differ on what some of the nature of the atonement was and what actually was accomplished at it. I don't think either of us deny that the Atonement accomplished salvation for some (whether they are unconditionally elected or conditionally elected) or that it was a substitutionary death for all men, especially for those who believe.
I agree. Let us then continue to preach Jesus and Him crucified and let God give the increase! (1 Corinthians 3:5-7)
Zguy28
New Member
Putting the larger debate on predestination/foreknowledge aside for a second and focusing on the text at hand, I'm not sure how you can say that given the text in reference to Esau and Jacob.
What else can "man's desire or effort" mean other than man's choice?
And Paul says the God's mercy does not depend on it. So, God doesn't consider your desire to be saved in response to the Gospel. It's right there.
Now, you might say "well that's only Esau and Jacob." And that seems like a good response on the surface. But it has problems and leads back into the larger debate.
Starman3000m
New Member
Zguy, if God created certain people to love Him that would not be a genuine and sincere love for God on their behalf. By the same circumstance, if God created most of mankind for the purpose of casting them into Hell because He created them not to believe then what do you do with Scripture that proclaims that God so loved the world....(John 3:16-21)
The Big Picture is acknowledging God's Omniscience.
If you believe in God's Omniscience, it would stand to reason that God would foreknow all people who will ever be born and know which ones will genuinely have a heart to know Him and which will be swayed toward the world and fall for the deceptions (religious and humanist) that base their goodness on works, rituals, traditions and doctrines of men. Things that Jesus warned people away from. Things that Jesus and His Apostles said would be deceptions of Satan. Some listened and believed in Jesus while many placed faith on their indoctrinated beliefs. In the case of the Jews, most of them put more weight on following Moses and rejected Jesus while yet other Jews believed and recognized Him as being their Messiah, as prophesied.
The Bible is clear in stating that the culprit responsible for deceiving mankind and luring them into Hell is Satan who holds the souls of people captive. The Bible is also clear that God does not want anyone to perish and that Jesus came to set the captives free. Jesus also stated that one cannot serve two masters. People are given a choice of who they want to have as master over their life.
As stated before, I do not believe that God is responsible for causing (predestining) people to not believe in Him so He can cast them into Hell for not believing in Him:
Scripture explains that it is God's adversary who is responsible for the deception and for instilling pride in people which leads them away from God:
Zguy28
New Member
Let's focus on this one statement.
A few simple questions to ponder.
Can God make people love Him? Or is it impossible for Him?
If an omnipotent God ordained that certain men would love Him, how would it not be sincere, if God Himself ordained it?
Does the Scripture speak to your notion of "sincere and genuine for God" as you have stated it? Or is it an assumption on your part?
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ItalianScallion
Harley Rider
That "cease fire" didn't last long did it? v v v :shrug:
Starman3000m
New Member
The Bible states that God first loved us (mankind) 1 John 4:19; but genuine love must be reciprocated otherwise it is not genuine:
Through the Prophets, God called Israel to seek Him. It's the action that God calls for all mankind to do - seek Him, turn to Him, do not go the ways into captivity:
God has placed the choice before mankind: