What Exactly is Calvinism? Why All the Fuss?"

[Zguy28]

That "cease fire" didn't last long did it? v v v :shrug:

Reasoned dialog, you might want to try it, it's helpful in evangelism.

Arminians of a feather?

 

[Railroad]

Psalm 139:14-16 (New King James Version)14 I will praise You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made; Marvelous are Your works, And that my soul knows very well. 15 My frame was not hidden from You, When I was made in secret, And skillfully wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. 16 Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed. And in Your book they all were written, The days fashioned for me, When as yet there were none of them.

 

[Starman3000m]

Regarding Psalm 139:14-16:

This has always been a comforting Scripture to read The Bible states that David was a man after God's own heart and God would have known that from the beginning. As you know, David was one of the key players as written in the Bible accounts and it is through his line by which Salvation came to mankind.

Question: Do you, Railroad, believe that all mankind, in particular non-believers, are also fearfully and wonderfully made through God's design as well or that He made them with the intentional flaw to reject Him so that He could cast them into Hell?

 

[Starman3000m]

Reasoned dialog, you might want to try it, it's helpful in evangelism.

Arminians of a feather?

Regarding "Arminians of a feather" (and all who come to trust in The Lord):

They that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint. (Isaiah 40:31)

Praise the name of Jesus, The Son of God and Saviour of mankind; Praise Him and Him alone!

 

[Zguy28]

Regarding "Arminians of a feather" (and all who come to trust in The Lord):

You know I was playing off IS's words right?

Praise the name of Jesus, The Son of God and Saviour of mankind; Praise Him and Him alone!

Amen brother!

 

[Railroad]

Question: Do you, Railroad, believe that all mankind, in particular non-believers, are also fearfully and wonderfully made through God's design as well or that He made them with the intentional flaw to reject Him so that He could cast them into Hell?

Let me try and explain this one more time: God knows the end, the middle, and the beginning - all of every person's days - because time is irrelevant to God. I believe God makes all of us, good bad and ugly, and knows what each of us "will be" because he sees what we ARE. His plan for every day of every life accommodates the fact that people will make decisions good and bad and thus, there is no incompatibility between free will and God knowing what we are. I believe His plan is intricate and simultaneous, both beyond our real comprehension. In other words, you guys are ALL correct in your dealing with the free will-predestination argument, but you seem to be missing the fact that when you exist simultaneously at Alpha and Omega, the prefix "Pre" is meaningless.

 

[Starman3000m]

Let me try and explain this one more time: God knows the end, the middle, and the beginning - all of every person's days - because time is irrelevant to God. I believe God makes all of us, good bad and ugly, and knows what each of us "will be" because he sees what we ARE. His plan for every day of every life accommodates the fact that people will make decisions good and bad and thus, there is no incompatibility between free will and God knowing what we are. I believe His plan is intricate and simultaneous, both beyond our real comprehension. In other words, you guys are ALL correct in your dealing with the free will-predestination argument, but you seem to be missing the fact that when you exist simultaneously at Alpha and Omega, the prefix "Pre" is meaningless.

Okay, but that still does not answer the root of the Calvinist belief that Jesus really did not die to offer Salvation to all mankind - only for some and that the rest of mankind was, in essence, "formed by God in the womb" to be a soul destined for Hell through His Design.

Be it Hyper-Calvinism, it is still a theological belief system about God's Grace being limited to only those whom He specifically wanted to save. That belief, therefore, negates any Scripture stating that God so loved the world and that He is willing that no one should perish and negates Scripture where Jesus calls all who are broken-hearted and heavy laden to come to Him and He will give them rest -and Eternal Life.

I agree with all the points about us being of human nature consisting of "good, bad and ugly" (cool movie by the way) because of the fall of mankind as the Bible states. That's what makes God's Grace even more awesome that He would reach out to man, while we were yet sinners, and call for man to reach out to Him.

I will continue to maintain that while the Holy Bible proclaims that Only God is Good, the literal Calvinist belief of God's "predestination of souls for Heaven or Hell" takes the blame off of Satan and makes God out to be the bad guy who sends souls to Hell because He wanted it that way.

 

[Zguy28]

Starman, have you ever said "God is in control"?

What possible comfort can that hold for you?

Anywho, another question: does man have libertarian free will AFTER he is saved?

 

[Radiant1]

I don't consider this argument to be about a secondary issue as it was referred to by IS last week while trying to show anti-Catholic solidarity. Nice try though. This goes to the very heart of salvation,

Repeated for posterity's sake.

 

[ItalianScallion]

And yet you want everybody to take your word for it. Guess what, you are wrong on some things, and God's word says so.

SO DO YOU! It's exactly what you are doing too. Wake up! You and ST have taken a few verses out and tried to make them stand alone while completely ignoring the other relevant ones that speak of election & predestination. You've got to use them all together for a proper understanding.

Also, you never answered me, why do you have such a problem with listening to what other people even have to say? Are you infallible?

I have no problem listening to what others say. What I DO have a problem with is Christians who say they are "something" that is contrary to what the Bible says: "Why I'm a Calvinist". If you haven't done the proper research, either sit it out and listen but don't come in here with your guns a blazing trying to push a doctrine that is NOT biblical. That's all; and that goes for any unbiblical doctrine.

Secondly your showing your attitude towards me because I have privately ask you to exam yourself to see if you are in the truth, as your behavior is not that of a healthy Christian and also because I have taken a few subtle shoots at you recently.

Actually you were judging me, incorrectly, through legalistic eyes. That "go to church" verse you used, does NOT mean that one has to attend an organized church on Sunday. You, however, are unable to see that.

Thirdly who says its Zguys word over the word of God? Just because you have a Pentecostal background that doesn’t mean your reading is correct, your reading the text with a presupposition that their doctrine is correct and rejecting the more prevalent and common understandings of scripture.

I do not have a Penecostal background. Again, your flawed research shows. You are the one who has ignored biblical context.

I am sorry but I cant let you get away speaking factually, when in reality its just your opinion. I will leave you with this verse and ask you seriously consider it and the motives for your behavior. Maybe its time a little accountability is put in place! Feel free to hold me to the same standard!

I have no opinion other than what the Book says. You should try it too...

I don't consider this argument to be about a secondary issue as it was referred to by IS last week while trying to show anti-Catholic solidarity. Nice try though. This goes to the very heart of salvation,

This is not salvation affecting, Onel. Even though Calvinism is not biblical, it's issue is not whether someone is saved or not.

 

[Starman3000m]

Starman, have you ever said "God is in control"?

Sure! Jesus stated that in this world we would have tribulation; that people would hate us because of our testimony of Him; that we would endure persecutions and afflictions because of our faith. I not only believe that God is in control when those things occur but that He is able to give me (us) the ability to endure through it all lest I try to handle things on my own.

What possible comfort can that hold for you?

I have the Peace during those circumstances that surpasses all understanding and this through the indwelling Holy Spirit's Comfort, as Jesus said His followers would have.

Anywho, another question: does man have libertarian free will AFTER he is saved?

Yes. Believers are called to walk in the Spirit and by the empowering of the Spirit, yet, the Bible states that it is possible to be carnal and quench and grieve the Holy Spirit because our bodies are considered a temple of God.
Choosing to walk in the Spirit as close as you can is part of that freedom with the understanding that the closer you walk with God the stronger the spiritual strength you can have to overcome.

 

[Zguy28]

Sure! Jesus stated that in this world we would have tribulation; that people would hate us because of our testimony of Him; that we would endure persecutions and afflictions because of our faith. I not only believe that God is in control when those things occur but that He is able to give me (us) the ability to endure through it all lest I try to handle things on my own.



I have the Peace during those circumstances that surpasses all understanding and this through the indwelling Holy Spirit's Comfort, as Jesus said His followers would have.



Yes. Believers are called to walk in the Spirit and by the empowering of the Spirit, yet, the Bible states that it is possible to be carnal and quench and grieve the Holy Spirit because our bodies are considered a temple of God.
Choosing to walk in the Spirit as close as you can is part of that freedom with the understanding that the closer you walk with God the stronger the spiritual strength you can have to overcome.

In your opinion, why can't you walk away permanently?

 

[Starman3000m]

In your opinion, why can't you walk away permanently?

The Bible proclaims that there is only one unforgiveable sin that will lead to eternal damnation and that is blaspheme against the Holy Spirit of God.

Once a person becomes a born-again believer, the Peace and Joy of The Lord is overwhelming in comparison to what this world could ever offer. Why would I ever want to walk away and give that up? There is nothing in this world that compares to the Love of God and knowing that I have a personal fellowship and spiritual relationship with the Supreme Creator of all that there is. The indwelling Holy Spirit of God is what gives believers the strength to live each day for God.

 

[Zguy28]

The Bible proclaims that there is only one unforgiveable sin that will lead to eternal damnation and that is blaspheme against the Holy Spirit of God.

Once a person becomes a born-again believer, the Peace and Joy of The Lord is overwhelming in comparison to what this world could ever offer. Why would I ever want to walk away and give that up? There is nothing in this world that compares to the Love of God and knowing that I have a personal fellowship and spiritual relationship with the Supreme Creator of all that there is. The indwelling Holy Spirit of God is what gives believers the strength to live each day for God.

Understood. But please note, I didn't ask "would you walk away."

I asked "can you walk away". In other words, do you think it is theoretically possible, in accordance with man's free will, to forfeit salvation and go to Hell?

 

[hvp05]

Zguy, if God created certain people to love Him that would not be a genuine and sincere love for God on their behalf.

Wow, with that statement you compromised the basis of your entire belief system. And you didn't notice a thing. Hmm.

 

[itsbob]

All I ask is;



WHAT ABOUT HOBBES?!?

 

[Starman3000m]

Wow, with that statement you compromised the basis of your entire belief system. And you didn't notice a thing. Hmm.

Really? How so?

If God foreknows who will and will not genuinely love Him with a sincere heart how would that compromise my belief system in a Sovereign and Omniscient God of Creation?

For example, God foreknew the type of individual and character that David would be even before he was born - that he would be a man after God's own heart. God used David in a mighty way to fulfill His purpose even through the quirks and weaknesses of David's personal failings. Same with the Biblical Patriarchs, Prophets and Apostles. These were individuals who God knew He could count on to convey His Message to the rest of mankind and proclaim the arrival of Jesus The Messiah and Saviour of mankind. They each would have had (and did have) a genuine love and desire within their character to serve God.

Even in the case before Paul became a believer in Jesus. Paul (Saul) was a high ranking Pharisee who thought he was doing God's service in persecuting the followers of Christ. Paul's motives were sincere for God but they were also sincerely misguided until he was set straight through his personal encounter with Jesus while on the way to persecute more Christians. God used Paul to expand the Gospel Message to the Gentile world.

Now, in the case of the "people at large" each individual is called to Salvation through the Message that God gave about His Son, Jesus Christ, just as you are being called right now. God knows who will respond in faith. God also knows who will not want to come to the Light of His Truth. The Bible makes it pretty clear about the distinct choices that people are given to make; to believe or not believe. That's a choice that is presented to you by The God who wants to give you eternal life and save your soul from His Judgment that will come against an unbelieving world. The decision is yours - based on whether you really want to know God and respond to the Love and Salvation that He offers you or if you willfully choose to reject Him.

All mankind is on the same level playing field, starting out as separated from God and in need of forgiveness. That way, at the Great White Throne Judgment those who responded to the Love that God offered them and accepted the Truth of Salvation through Christ will be spared the Judgment. God did not force them to love Him - they will have come to the point in life of acknowledging their sinfulness, realize their need of a Saviour, and trust God's Love and Promise of Salvation. From that point their love for God will grow and shape their lives as they begin a new start under the guidance of God's Holy Spirit.

Meanwhile, those who outright rejected God's Love and offer to save their soul through the Atoning Blood of Christ will have no one but themselves to blame when their unforgiven sins incur the Judgment of God. God did not force them to reject Him, they did it on their own when they were given the choice to love God or love the world.

 

[Starman3000m]

Understood. But please note, I didn't ask "would you walk away."

I asked "can you walk away". In other words, do you think it is theoretically possible, in accordance with man's free will, to forfeit salvation and go to Hell?

What, in your "theoretical sense" would cause a born-again believer who has been sealed unto Salvation by the Holy Spirit to want to forfeit salvation?

A truly saved individual would maintain their "free will" to say No Thanks to any thoughts of going back to being a slave to sin and placing themselves under the control of Satan's influence in the world.

 

[Zguy28]

What, in your "theoretical sense" would cause a born-again believer who has been sealed unto Salvation by the Holy Spirit to want to forfeit salvation?

Again, that's not what I asked.

A truly saved individual would maintain their "free will" to say No Thanks to any thoughts of going back to being a slave to sin and placing themselves under the control of Satan's influence in the world.

Wait, are they preserved by the Holy Spirit(sealed) or are they preserved by their own free will? Which is it?

Why can't they maintain their free will to say "yes thanks" like they could before? They had the choice once right?

 

[hvp05]

Really? How so?

I wasn't referring to foreknowledge.

You said, "f God created certain people to love Him that would not be a genuine and sincere love for God on their behalf." Now, you have said countless times that Jesus came to die for our sins. Matthew 20:28 is one specific example that tells, "[J]ust as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many." Following the line established by your statement above, and given god sent Jesus to be sacrificed, it's reasonable to deduce that his death was not "genuine and sincere" because that was the whole reason he was put here; he merely filled the obligation.

You'll deny it, of course, but that seems like a rather big flaw to me. Perhaps you and Zguy can team up to disagree with me, so there will be some good to come of it.