Where did Evil come from?

[Penn]

We had an interesting discussion in my Adult Sunday School class this morning. It's about an age old question: Why does God allow terrible things to happen to innocent people? As an added discussion, another point was raised: If God is all-powerful, would He not stamp out Evil?
We are in the midst of a class advising how to be a "Better Evangelist for Christ", when this subject came up.
How do you answer that question to a non-believer, or a person who is seeking to join the church, but has serious doubts about the way God works?
Better yet, how do you back it up? In Genesis 3:1, it tells you God created that serpent, who for thousands of years has been known as the epitomy of Satan.
So, did God create Evil? Some folks said "No, He allowed it to happen." Alright, that requires a leap of faith, because I can't back that idea up anywhere in scripture that I know of.
Does anybody see where we were going with this?
I could not finish the class, because I had to leave for Choir practice for our 11:00 service; but I doubt they got very far in solving the questions.
penn

 

[Tonio]

Fascinating question. Scholars have debated this question for centuries--if God is all-powerful, why does evil exist?

My own belief is that much of the Bible wasn't meant to be taken literally. I see the Garden of Eden story as a metaphor for human evolution. In some ways, animals have more freedom than humans because they don't make moral choices. All their actions are motivated by the survival of their species. Also, animals don't really comprehend death. So humans pay a lot for having large brains--we must decide right from wrong, and we are aware of their own mortality.

 

[Penn]

One possible explanation......

Originally posted by Tonio
Fascinating question. Scholars have debated this question for centuries--if God is all-powerful, why does evil exist?

My own belief is that much of the Bible wasn't meant to be taken literally. I see the Garden of Eden story as a metaphor for human evolution. In some ways, animals have more freedom than humans because they don't make moral choices. All their actions are motivated by the survival of their species. Also, animals don't really comprehend death. So humans pay a lot for having large brains--we must decide right from wrong, and we are aware of their own mortality.

Well, after church let out, I went to Giant to pick up some food stuffs, and I bumped into a woman sitting in our class this morning. It seems a consensus was reached that God, did allow for Evil to exist right from the beggining, He allowed Lucifer to enter the serpent, one way or another, to allow for contrast, ie,. right from wrong, good vs. bad. The first test was eating of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge, and we didn't pass. However, without those choices, we as mankind couldn't grow, learn, be tested and progress. God knew we needed to be able to make those choices. I think I can live with that, but need more time and discussion in my class and on the board here to strengthen my
feelings. You have to have faith, and I've learned that much.

penn

 

[Penn]

Re: Re: One possible explanation......

Originally posted by cariblue
Why? Faith in What?

Faith in God, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit.
Ok, Cari, in an earlier discussion on here, I said I took a class at my church called "Disciple", and one of the first choices we had to make was: Is the Bible truth or fiction? I say yes, it's true. Why? There are way too many prophesies foretold in the Old Testament that came true in the New Testament.
Keep in mind these were written by various men thousands of years apart; no way to collaborate, to concoct something up. Plus the Dead Sea Scrolls: the entire Book of Isaiah was found(1946?) in a cave in the Middle East, and dated back to those times. And furthermore, the newly discovered book translated exactly to the same text as the Isaiah we've known and read for centuries, word for word!
That's hard evidence to dispute. So, faith in God, you either have it, or you don't; however, that does not mean you cannot acquire it.
I didn't have it 4 years ago, I do now.
penn

 

[Ken King]

Re: Re: Re: One possible explanation......

Originally posted by penncam
Is the Bible truth or fiction? I say yes.

Did you actually intend to answer your question this way?

 

[JabbaJawz]

Dean and I attended a marriage preparation class last weekend and this weekend (Catholic church), and the subject of evil came up. Our speaker believed that God didn't create evil, but allowed good people to make choices. By allowing that freedom, not all people choose to be good. God created the potential for evil, and several have chosen that path.

 

[Penn]

Re: Re: Re: Re: One possible explanation......

Originally posted by Ken King
Did you actually intend to answer your question this way?

NO! But now that you show it in that manner, it is kind of funny! Man, oh Man, God
does work in strange ways! But that's the kind of thing that happens to me in life.
Last Sunday, I ran across a fella struggling to get a floor waxing machine into his van up a ramp at Giant(my favorite food store), he almost had it in there, but I asked him if he needed help with it anyway. He said no, he could handle it.
I went in, did my shopping about 20 mins worth, and came back out to my truck. The machine this guy had been wrestling with had some how slid back down the ramp to the pavement! I asked him "Are you sure I can't help you?" He said - please! So he pulled, I pushed from the bottom, and we got it into the van, and he thanked me.
As I walked back to my truck, I praised God and thanked him for letting me be there to help someone when they really needed it, and couldn't have handled it on their own.
I know it sounds corny, but that's the way God works sometimes,
I believe.
penn

 

[Penn]

After a lot more reading and discussion.....

I've decided that the following text explains clearly enough for me to understand certain aspects of Evil and Sin.
So I'm going to accept(it works for me) a passage from the Westminster Dictionary, and what it says about Evil:
"The origin of Evil is a problem that has perplexed speculative minds in all ages and countries. Man, in excercising his freedom of will may choose what is good or what is evil. God is not the author of sin, but he permits it.

He has permitted it , because the revelation of His infinite perfection is the highest concievable good, and the ultimate end of all his works, and there could be no manifestation
(proof or indication)of certain of His attributes if sin were not permitted.

Were there no misery, there could be no mercy shown by God; and there could be no revelation of His grace and justice, if there were no sin. (Rom. 9: 22-23) Sin is permitted so
that God's justice may be known in it's punishment, and His mercy in it's forgiveness".
Nowhere in the Bible will you find where the origin of sin and evil arises. Many hold that the origin and explanation of evils are a mystery hidden in the divine counsels and impossible to for man to solve.

We are first introduced to it in the Garden of Evil; God left Adam and Eve there to ponder, I suppose, after telling them all fruits of the Garden were edible, and that they could eat from any of them,
except from the Tree of Good and Evil. God had not left them, I surmise; He was watching them all the time. This was their first test in exercising free will. Apparently Adam went off to do his own exploring, which left Eve to look after herself. Now it's her first instance for choosing good versus evil.

An oversimplification, maybe, but she had a serpent who rose up, observed her, possibly read her thoughts or emotions, and very easily supported her assertion that consuming of the fruit of that particular tree would lead her to greater knowledge and closer to the God she had only just come to know.
Upon Adams' return, Eve thus persuaded Adam that it was alright to eat from that same fruit, and in effect injuring him as well.

This is where I think I can make the connection as to why God allowed Evil and Sin into the world. He had given both man and woman the freedom to choose.
Of course, Gods' reaction to this affair was to shame and embarrass them, ultimately banishing them forever from the Garden. He also told each of them what their fates would be.
These consequences coincide well with the Westminster
text I quoted above. "Sin is permitted so that Gods' justice may be known in it's punishment, and His mercy in it's forgiveness".
penn

 

[Sharon]

Hey Penn

Paragraphs are your friend!

 

[DangerMouse]

Hi, all,

Gee, it seems I'm "famous." By all appearances, this thread seems to have sprung from my class. We spent the last 2 Sundays discussing the problems of evil, pain, and suffering, so based on what I see (plus the fact that a friend from church clued me in), I think I am the one. ;-)

It is a tough question, to be sure, 'cause evil leads to pain, and there's lots of emotions that get tied up in that. I hope we reached a consensus, although not everyone was entirely convinced of the answer. The only one that I can see that fits, and you've already covered it here, is based on man's free will (and angels' free will, too). This allowed the possibility of evil but God did not directly create evil. (cautionary note - consensus does NOT equal truth - every election we have proves that! ;-)

Cariblue raises an interesting point in the midst of this - what does faith do for one? Let me toss this can of gas on the fire

We all have faith in something (even Cariblue has faith in him/herself . It's an inescapeable part of being a human. You have to start with a faith, then use that to interpret the facts of the world around you - no one can just look at the facts, they must be interpreted to be useful. Even Stephen Hawking agrees with that.

Moving on, what does my faith do for me? It explains a great deal of what I see/understand, it gives me comfort, and purpose in life, and sets up the limits of how I should live (there's more, but you get the point). As CS Lewis said, it makes a great deal of difference whether you're the owner of your body or just a tenant.

An atheist, on the other hand, may draw from their faith the freedom to live as they chose, and do what they want.

We're betting on different sides of Pascal's Wager: If I'm wrong, and there's nothing after this life, I've lost only a trivial bit - pleasures that I won't remember 'cause I won't exist. However, if the atheist is wrong, they've bet the farm and lost, forever.

I've gotta say I'm immensely flattered that my class is generating so much discussion and thought - I truly had no idea!

Commercial break: come out this Sunday as we tackle Jesus (not literally): Why don't we have evidence about Him other than the Bible? (actually, we do) Wasn't He just a good man? (nope) ,
Weren't the gospels written long after He lived? (nah) Hasn't it changed a lot over the centuries? (uh-uh) And so on.

C ya!

 

[Penn]

Coincident classes at different churches?

Originally posted by DangerMouse
Hi, all,

I've gotta say I'm immensely flattered that my class is generating so much discussion and thought - I truly had no idea!

Commercial break: come out this Sunday as we tackle Jesus (not literally): Why don't we have evidence about Him other than the Bible? (actually, we do) Wasn't He just a good man? (nope) ,
Weren't the gospels written long after He lived? (nah) Hasn't it changed a lot over the centuries? (uh-uh) And so on.

C ya!

Somehow, I don't think your church and mine are the only ones tackling this subject. But what we've found is one or two questions like these open up about twenty more. I attend St Pauls' UMC in Lusby, where are you?

Your class on what evidence there is about Jesus, other than the Bible sounds interesting. We are not doing that one yet at my church.

Depending on who's text you're reading from, different ideas spring up. Throw an agnostic or atheist into the mix, and it really gets complicated!

Another neat tidbit I was reading in the Westminster Dictionary holds that "Evil is said to be needed as a contrast to good".

"Variety itself is good. However, this principle is destructive when applied to moral values. It is not necessary to sin in order to enjoy
virtue any more than it is necessary to eat a rotten apple in order to enjoy a ripe one."

Roll that one around for a while in your head!


PS: Sorry Sharon, I'll split the paragraphs up more

penn

 

[Christy]

Originally posted by cariblue
I know all of that. Maybe I should have just asked "why?" What's the point? What has having faith done for you? Does it scare away your boogie-man? Does it give you comfort when a loved one dies? Not to knock what anyone believes, I just don't see the point. If there is a god, that's fine. I'd much prefer to have faith in people. Of course, I'm finding that even that isn't such a good idea. So the only thing left to have faith in, is myself. Hmm, works for me.

Cari, it's really hard to describe or explain "faith" unless you've really and truly felt God's "presence". I'm one of those that never went "searching" for God, for some reason he's sought me out. It's really hard to explain and it all sounds hokey unless you've "been there".

As far as "where does evil come from"? No offense to those seeking that answer, but who cares? What difference does it make? Rather than spending many sleepless nights pondering a pointless question, I imagine it would be more spiritually fruitful to spend those hours facing our "demons" and the evil that exists in ourselves. (All of us, I'm not trying to Evangelicise) That is the point (in my humble opinion) God tries to make in almost every passage of the Bible.

Can someone throw me an Amen? (Sorry, getting a bit carried away with myself )

 

[Christy]

Originally posted by cariblue
I like discussing this stuff with you, Christy. You always have a level head about it, where others get too preachy about it.

You didn't throw me an Amen. (Atheist skum! )

 

[Heretic]

In the words of Homer Simpson..."What if I choose the wrong religion, wouldnt continuing to practice it piss God off more and more?"

 

[Penn]

Amen for Christy

Originally posted by Christy
You didn't throw me an Amen. (Atheist skum! )

Ok, Christy, you got your Amen! The topic, or thread I started here was not perplexing me at the time, it arose during a discussion about why/how God allows seemingly terrible things to happen to innocent people.

Our instructor put up a slide and asked us what our thoughts were, about the origin of good and evil, and that opened up a flood of ideas. It got me digging and looking in the Bible, and a few Christian websites for answers.

I think I've got something that satisfies me, to a degree, and using what I've learned, I've thought about situations where innocent people are harmed or worse.

Accidents that end in an injury or death are probably a product of one's choice - rightly or wrongly. How many times have you heard of somebody avoided being killed in a plane crash, or a train derailment, because they missed the flight for some uncanny reason, were delayed getting to the station because of a traffic jam, etc.

Let's say someone gets killed in a drive-by shooting: More than one choice had been made here. The person who decided to go out on their front porch to read, etc., and the individual(s) who picked that moment in time to shoot and end someone elses' life.

The ones that I can't account for are like little kids suddenly contracting a life-ending disease, and such. How do you reconcile that? There must be a reason, I just haven't discovered it yet, so I can reason it out.

Cari, I am not attempting to convince you personally to believe;
I put up this thread for discussion, to see what people thought about it. The only person who can convince you is. . . . . . .you!

penn

 

[migtig]

Where does evil come from?

Actually this is a fascinating question on a few ends of the spectrum. I guess it truly does depend on "what" you believe, "who" you believe, and what you know. And then by using your mind in conjuction with your soul/spirit you reach certain conclusions.

Take for example the question - who has decided what is "morally" right and wrong? If something one individual (or group) believes is right while another believes it is wrong - is this thereby "evil" in another's eyes?

Take the religious zealots in any religion, but in this dayand age let's take the muslim religion as an example. These deeply faithful individuals truly believe a jihad - a holy war is the only way to go to get the infidels to leave them alone and to stay out of their holy places. Are they "evil"? Not in their book. They believe by "fighting" this religious war - by being zealots, by killing others with different beliefs and so forth, that they are guaranteed a place in paradise. They believe that others are "evil" - not them. (we can go back in history and show this exact same example but substitute the Cathlic Church in place of the Muslims, and even farther back and substitute the Jews for the Catholics - a cycle - a circle)

So, back to the original question, where does evil come from? It comes from the well spring of the human soul. It comes from the essence of being and is guided by environment, religion and education as to what Is right and what Is wrong. Once you figure out how we as a human race have varied opinions of what is right and wrong, then you can decide how we reached a place were the "wrong" became "evil". It is a form of prejudice and judgement of others. If someone believes different religiously, if someone acts different than we would in their marriages, lifestyle, etc. - then they must be "evil".

Sorry I could probably write an essay - but I won't.

 

[Heretic]

I think there is some evil universal to all religions that basically came about due to common sense. Killing someone just because they have something that you want would be a good example.

 

[Frank]

Humans created evil - without humans, there isn't any evil. Since we have free will, we have the choice to allow God into something or to push him out. Evil is the darkness that exists where God has been willfully pushed out.

 

[migtig]

Re: Re: Where did Evil come from?

Originally posted by Frank
Humans created evil - without humans, there isn't any evil. Since we have free will, we have the choice to allow God into something or to push him out. Evil is the darkness that exists where God has been willfully pushed out.

I agree with your first sentence, however to be truly debatable - who's God is the right God? If I follow God and He/She isn't your God or vice versa - does that make me evil? If I am Wiccan and follow many Gods and live by the creed "Harm none" does that meke me evil? Or is it okay that I follow God regardless? If that so, then why are religious zealots evil? And why do they see others who are not zealots as evil?
I truly feel that evil is a human condition. It has nothing to do with God.

 

[Penn]

Re: Where does evil come from?

Originally posted by migtig
Actually this is a fascinating question on a few ends of the spectrum. I guess it truly does depend on "what" you believe, "who" you believe, and what you know. And then by using your mind in conjuction with your soul/spirit you reach certain conclusions.

Take for example the So, back to the original question, where does evil come from? It comes from the well spring of the human soul. It comes from the essence of being and is guided by environment, religion and education as to what Is right and what Is wrong. Once you figure out how we as a human race have varied opinions of what is right and wrong, then you can decide how we reached a place were the "wrong" became "evil". It is a form of prejudice and judgement of others. If someone believes different religiously, if someone acts different than we would in their marriages, lifestyle, etc. - then they must be "evil".

Sorry I could probably write an essay - but I won't.

There's nothing wrong with your theories mig, everyone has views and I certainly enjoyed reading yours.

As far as I can figure out, when Abraham had his first male child, he was named Ishmael, the result of a union with an Egyptian slave Hagar, offered to Abraham by Sarah, because she was barren.

When you read into the path Ishmael and his mother followed after they left Abraham's camp because she felt oppressedby Sarah, it seems to point a split from the Jewish faith: a basic departure from the accepted belief.

I believe that was the begining of Islam right there, and Allah is worshipped in place of God. Don't jump on me too hard just yet, because I know that is an oversimplification of how Islam began or started. I'll be honest, I haven't studied Islamic faith that much,
because I believe there is only one God that I will worship. Oh yeah, we've had classes in our church, discussing the contrasts between the two religions, and I will stay with Christianity.


Like you, I could write an essay here, but all I'd like to do is generate ideas and discussion, what people feel.

penn