Why Defend Traditional Marriage?

Marie

New Member
:yeahthat:

People like Marie will consistently rally against the government controlling their lives...until gay marriage comes up. Then, the government becomes a tool which they can use to control the lives of others.

I love the "well if gays can get married, where does it stop?" argument. Maybe we should just ban marriage altogether, because honestly, where does it stop? No sex either...if people can have sex together, they might decide to have sex in groups or with others of the same sex....where does it stop?

The slippery slope argument is retarded and could literally be applied to any other situation in which human beings interact with one another. Not to mention...ultimately...if the actions of others in no way limit your freedoms, it is none of your business!

Thanks for speaking on my behalf, but I can do quit well for myself!

The government does not define morality. Nor does the governments power or authority exceed that of the word of God!

Its wrong because God says so, and when you disobey Him there are consequences. If you love someone, you tell them the truth and help them, not letting them go on believing one of Satan's lies or excusing or dismissing it. You help them break free from the bondage of sin and help them discover the freedom in Christ. What ever sin it is, they all stink the same to God, any any Christen thats been saved by the grace of God certainly isn't going to think someone else sin is any worse than there own. Private sin hurts and impacts others the same as public sin.
 

foodcritic

New Member
Well, marriage IS a contract.

If you want all that religious stuff, get married in a church.

If you're not into that, the government should have little say on what person you marry so long as it's a person.

Why draw the line there? Don't start preaching morals to us now :whistle:
 

foodcritic

New Member
:yay: If he/she/it can consent, the Govenrment should get the eff out of it!

As for the "people might marry a goat!" Do goats have a legal abiltiy to consent? Do children? Do abused women? Of course not. But people like Marie decry the Governments infringement on their "rights" but want the Government to enforce their morality.

The last people that I want legislating morality are preverts like Barney Frank or slimy shysters like Steny Hoyer, and the last people I want enforcing morality are biased ideologues like Obama and Eric Holder.

Let's get rid of any government incentives (taxes, etc.) and let people enter into contracts on their own, either through filing a simple form at the courthouse or getting a lawyer to do it. That would allow next of kin, dependent, probate decisions, as well as having something to base divorce decisions on.

The religious ceremony of marriage and the civil commitment contracts should not be mixed up or confused. What I sign on a piece of paper has no impact on my promise before God, so I do not need the Government to enforce that promise for me.

Your mixing and confusing things.

If he/she/it can consent, the Govenrment should get the eff out of it!
As for the "people might marry a goat!" Do goats have a legal abiltiy to consent? Do children? Do abused women? Of course not. But people like Marie decry the Governments infringement on their "rights" but want the Government to enforce their morality.

You have a strange fascination of equating people with animals (not sure why). Your whole argument hinges on personal consent!!
Children to a certain age can consent and understand even if it's not at the legal age. For example two 12 year olds could have consensual sex and there is no legal violation. The only violation is when it's an adult. So obviously consent is not the issue.

Animals are property and don't consent to ANYTHING. They don't consent to the food you give them, the collar you put on them etc...this is a silly argument. You realize this right? Your arguments fail the logic test.

The reality is you don't care about how marriage is defined. Even when the latest attempt of the left is to do away with thousands of years of accepted practice. Just admit that and you won't give us the phony comparisons. :popcorn:
 

philibusters

Active Member
Because marriage is a picture of how Christ loves his church, If its not theologically accurate, then its not marriage. In a real marriage the world looks at how a man loves his wife, and how he honors and protects her and it gets a glimpse of how Christ treats his bride, the church.

I think you are confusing marriage at large and marriage within the church. If a couple wants to get married in a church and live by the church's image of marriage, then that is good for them. I don't know, but I would guess people who are deeply religious have better marriages on the whole. Thats not saying church goers as a whole do, but those who take marriage very seriously--I guess they have better marriages because they are more likely to put a ton of work into their marriage because they value it so much.

That is good for them, they will reap the rewards of such. But that is based on their individual beliefs. Hindus get married, muslims get married, buddhists get married, they all certainly have the right to get married. Plus different christian faiths have different views of marriage. Marriage exists as a legal contract separate from the spiritual covenant it is for some people.

I don't want to dwell on history, but the simple fact is the family institution and marriage existed before the time of Christ. In fact Jesus's parents were married (though apparently not consummated).

Marriage is a covenant between a man and a woman under God and before the eyes of man. There is theology there. God never broke His covenant relationship with his people. When we pervert marriage we pervert that picture of God and His character and nature.

You cant become one flesh or have children with someone of the same sex. It perverts the Biblical pattern of life.

Same comments. Your marriage is much more than a legal marriage, its a spiritual convenant. But non-Christians, athiests, and other types of Christians who have different views of marriage also get married. Under our Constitution (First Amendment), there can be no state sponsored church. A purely state marriage may not be as strong as a religious marriage (at least where the people in the religious marriage take the religious part serious), but thats not the state's job. Your church emphasizes the importance of marriage to its followers, the state is not a church, it has a limited purpose.

Marriage is an institution of the church and not the state, and its disgusting that we allowed the state to exceed its design and purpose and get involved in areas that it has no say in, like marriage and education and assisting those in need, but that doesn't change what it is.

Marriage would be A LOT weaker without the state. Anybody could leave the marriage with no financial consequences without the state. The state can take your money from you to pay alimony. Marriage can protect family members like ex-spouses and children from the marriage. The state getting involved in marriage and making special provisions also makes it less likely that two married people are likely to have financially opposite interests and break over it as it treats transaction between people differently. Marriage without the state involved is a very weak because the only consequences would be ones faith in religion and some people just don't care about religion.

It only shows the sinfulness of the church and the fact that its not been doing what it should have been for the last 40 years. But when the church is filled with false converts, due to the likes of Charles Finney and his predecessors with his manipulation techniques to get a decision for Christ, and a false modern day gospel. You get a church of 75% or more of self deceived goats playing church and practicing a form of religion based on moralism.

There not slaves to Christ, and there not serving Him. Instead they are more worried about building there personal little empire, there little suburban mega church based on man centered concepts like Bill Hybels and Rick Warren and willing to compromise on the preaching of the word and bringing in entertainment based worship to pacify the goats for 45 minutes.

Nobody argues that if people feel a strong marriage is part of their spiritual well being that they are more likely to have a strong marriage. Its not gay people's fault that others would rather have individual freedom rather than responsibility.

The culture has invaded the church and for the most part all but replaced it, and thats why churches are dying. People don't want the garbage the church has been selling for the last 40 years. Christians want Gods word proclaimed boldly, clearly and accurately, not sugar coated garbage, from week kneed men that spend there time watching movies and television rather than studying the word of God. They want leaders that live there faith and are willing to get there hands dirty.
“Give us some men, that know and who will declare the truth and who stand with Athanasios and Poly Carp and Calvin and Luther and Whitefield and Edwards, and who will declare from the house tops that the gospel is the power of God unto salvation” Steve Lawson
We have a bunch of Churches in Southern Maryland and if they were obedient in the last year, you should of had at least one person a week, from each of them knock on your door, or ask you on the street if you were to die tomorrow where would you spend eternity? Instead, your probably lucky if anyone ever asked you that or handed you a gospel tract.

Sorry for the complaining on the state of the church, but if it was healthy and alive, we wouldn't even be talking about what marriage is, people would know! The state would not be involved, nor would we have officials promoting what goes against conscious, as they would be afraid to be voted out and would fear being looked upon as deviants themselves, for even considering such a thing.

If you are upset with people's spiritual well being, then convince them to adopt your beliefs, that is not the government's fault and its not the government's fault that people went away from the church. The government's job is not to spread religion--religion needs to stand on its own merits.

You also have a better of people at large than I. While I think people would be better off bracing responsibility when it comes to marriage, I think they will act weakly and generally chose individual freedom. People want easy divorces--which is maybe is not a good thing, but it is what the people want. I think the government responded to people's desire for easier divorces, not created that desire and lead the people. Like I said, if that bothers you, do a better job educating people about your religion and responsibility and family, but legislating your concepts of morality and marriage unto others is NOT the way to accomplish what you hope to accomplish.
 

philibusters

Active Member
Your mixing and confusing things.



You have a strange fascination of equating people with animals (not sure why). Your whole argument hinges on personal consent!!
Children to a certain age can consent and understand even if it's not at the legal age. For example two 12 year olds could have consensual sex and there is no legal violation. The only violation is when it's an adult. So obviously consent is not the issue.

Animals are property and don't consent to ANYTHING. They don't consent to the food you give them, the collar you put on them etc...this is a silly argument. You realize this right? Your arguments fail the logic test.

The reality is you don't care about how marriage is defined. Even when the latest attempt of the left is to do away with thousands of years of accepted practice. Just admit that and you won't give us the phony comparisons. :popcorn:

How is MMDad mixing and confusing things. He said simply this--- Do NOT confuse a legal marriage with the sacrmental marriage of the church. They are not one and the same and he says you are acting like they are one and the same.

Are you saying buddhist living in the U.S. are not legally married because it was not a Christian marriage. Of course they are legally married.

That was the distinction he was alluding to. Proponents of gay marriage tend to try to de-emphasize that distinction
 

foodcritic

New Member
I think you are confusing marriage at large and marriage within the church. If a couple wants to get married in a church and live by the church's image of marriage, then that is good for them. I don't know, but I would guess people who are deeply religious have better marriages on the whole. Thats not saying church goers as a whole do, but those who take marriage very seriously--I guess they have better marriages because they are more likely to put a ton of work into their marriage because they value it so much.

That is good for them, they will reap the rewards of such. But that is based on their individual beliefs. Hindus get married, muslims get married, buddhists get married, they all certainly have the right to get married. Plus different christian faiths have different views of marriage. Marriage exists as a legal contract separate from the spiritual covenant it is for some people.

I don't want to dwell on history, but the simple fact is the family institution and marriage existed before the time of Christ. In fact Jesus's parents were married (though apparently not consummated).



Same comments. Your marriage is much more than a legal marriage, its a spiritual convenant. But non-Christians, athiests, and other types of Christians who have different views of marriage also get married. Under our Constitution (First Amendment), there can be no state sponsored church. A purely state marriage may not be as strong as a religious marriage (at least where the people in the religious marriage take the religious part serious), but thats not the state's job. Your church emphasizes the importance of marriage to its followers, the state is not a church, it has a limited purpose.



Marriage would be A LOT weaker without the state. Anybody could leave the marriage with no financial consequences without the state. The state can take your money from you to pay alimony. Marriage can protect family members like ex-spouses and children from the marriage. The state getting involved in marriage and making special provisions also makes it less likely that two married people are likely to have financially opposite interests and break over it as it treats transaction between people differently. Marriage without the state involved is a very weak because the only consequences would be ones faith in religion and some people just don't care about religion.



Nobody argues that if people feel a strong marriage is part of their spiritual well being that they are more likely to have a strong marriage. Its not gay people's fault that others would rather have individual freedom rather than responsibility.



If you are upset with people's spiritual well being, then convince them to adopt your beliefs, that is not the government's fault and its not the government's fault that people went away from the church. The government's job is not to spread religion--religion needs to stand on its own merits.

You also have a better of people at large than I. While I think people would be better off bracing responsibility when it comes to marriage, I think they will act weakly and generally chose individual freedom. People want easy divorces--which is maybe is not a good thing, but it is what the people want. I think the government responded to people's desire for easier divorces, not created that desire and lead the people. Like I said, if that bothers you, do a better job educating people about your religion and responsibility and family, but legislating your concepts of morality and marriage unto others is NOT the way to accomplish what you hope to accomplish.

Because in AMERIKA we (we used to) view marriage as a religious institution that was quasi regulated by the state. It is a religious institution first and foremost. Like I stated earlier if you don't like that you must argue against HISTORY, legal precedence an common sense. :1bdz:
 

MMDad

Lem Putt
February 2006; Charles Tombe is forced to marry a Sudanese goat (subsequently named Rose), after he was caught having sex with her. He also had to pay a dowry of 15,000 Sudanese dinars (£25) to the goat’s owner.

You have a strange fascination of equating people with animals (not sure why). Your whole argument hinges on personal consent!!
Children to a certain age can consent and understand even if it's not at the legal age. For example two 12 year olds could have consensual sex and there is no legal violation. The only violation is when it's an adult. So obviously consent is not the issue.

Animals are property and don't consent to ANYTHING. They don't consent to the food you give them, the collar you put on them etc...this is a silly argument. You realize this right? Your arguments fail the logic test.

The reality is you don't care about how marriage is defined. Even when the latest attempt of the left is to do away with thousands of years of accepted practice. Just admit that and you won't give us the phony comparisons. :popcorn:

Who is guarding the mall while you're on here? Do you realize that you can take words and actually read them? It makes it a lot easier to understand if you can do that.

You say that children can consent, just not legally. WTF???? Are you really that stupid??? Try starting at the beginning of this thread, read it, and then see if you can understand the basic concepts being discussed.

I honestly do not believe that the government has any place enforcing morality. Asking them to enforce your beliefs while allowing you to freely exercise your beliefs is just plain hypocritical. But that is pretty much the norm for you, isn't it?
 

itsbob

I bowl overhand
:yay: If he/she/it can consent, the Govenrment should get the eff out of it!

As for the "people might marry a goat!" Do goats have a legal abiltiy to consent? Do children? Do abused women? Of course not. But people like Marie decry the Governments infringement on their "rights" but want the Government to enforce their morality.

The last people that I want legislating morality are preverts like Barney Frank or slimy shysters like Steny Hoyer, and the last people I want enforcing morality are biased ideologues like Obama and Eric Holder.

Let's get rid of any government incentives (taxes, etc.) and let people enter into contracts on their own, either through filing a simple form at the courthouse or getting a lawyer to do it. That would allow next of kin, dependent, probate decisions, as well as having something to base divorce decisions on.

The religious ceremony of marriage and the civil commitment contracts should not be mixed up or confused. What I sign on a piece of paper has no impact on my promise before God, so I do not need the Government to enforce that promise for me.

So we should legalize polygamy, so instead of pimpin out his women, Billy Ray can welfare them out. Marry all of 10 - 15 of them, put all of their welfare "pay-checks" into his account and he'd could live like a KING, and maybe pay 2 - 5% of it to the Moms so they can feed and clothe his kids.

After the definition of marriage is changed, there will be no stop as to what it becomes. But i guess we shall see..
 

MMDad

Lem Putt
So we should legalize polygamy, so instead of pimpin out his women, Billy Ray can welfare them out. Marry all of 10 - 15 of them, put all of their welfare "pay-checks" into his account and he'd could live like a KING, and maybe pay 2 - 5% of it to the Moms so they can feed and clothe his kids.

After the definition of marriage is changed, there will be no stop as to what it becomes. But i guess we shall see..

Why is polygamy illegal? Who does it harm?

You think we should not allow polygamy because someone might abuse the welfare system? That already happens - why not ban marriage entirely? People use it for welfare fraud, immigration fraud, and more. I knew a Navy couple who got married for the BAQ/VHA.

By the way, I said "let's get rid of any government incentives (taxes, etc.)" That would include welfare.
 

foodcritic

New Member
Who is guarding the mall while you're on here? Do you realize that you can take words and actually read them? It makes it a lot easier to understand if you can do that.

You say that children can consent, just not legally. WTF???? Are you really that stupid??? Try starting at the beginning of this thread, read it, and then see if you can understand the basic concepts being discussed.

I honestly do not believe that the government has any place enforcing morality. Asking them to enforce your beliefs while allowing you to freely exercise your beliefs is just plain hypocritical. But that is pretty much the norm for you, isn't it?

I will let u in on a little secret. THE GOVERNMENT HAS BEEN ENFORCING MORALITY SINCE THE BEGINNING. For real? You did not know that? If you have missed that well......I dont have much to offer you.

The only, ONLY question is going to be who's morality. That's it. It's always going to be that way. There is NO such government that does not legislate morality or lack their of. Any other notion is a fantasy.
 

Merlin99

Visualize whirled peas
PREMO Member
I will let u in on a little secret. THE GOVERNMENT HAS BEEN ENFORCING MORALITY SINCE THE BEGINNING. For real? You did not know that? If you have missed that well......I dont have much to offer you.

The only, ONLY question is going to be who's morality. That's it. It's always going to be that way. There is NO such government that does not legislate morality or lack their of. Any other notion is a fantasy.
I think I'm going to give you this one, but were going to have to stretch the word morality to cover all conduct good and bad. (i.e. it's immoral to speed or shoot abortion providers)
 

foodcritic

New Member
I think I'm going to give you this one, but were going to have to stretch the word morality to cover all conduct good and bad. (i.e. it's immoral to speed or shoot abortion providers)

Thank you :buddies:.

Let's not confuse what may be considered civil infractions(speeding) with obvious morally based laws (homicide).
 

PsyOps

Pixelated
Thank you :buddies:.

Let's not confuse what may be considered civil infractions(speeding) with obvious morally based laws (homicide).

I haven't followed your whole discussion here but this post on its own merits I will have to disagree. Even speeding has moral implications to it. Speed limits are for safety and not observing these safety factors can result in injuring or killing someone else. So it is morally correct to obey the speed limit. It's my thought that you will have to answer to God even your disobeying something as simple as the speed limit.
 

foodcritic

New Member
I haven't followed your whole discussion here but this post on its own merits I will have to disagree. Even speeding has moral implications to it. Speed limits are for safety and not observing these safety factors can result in injuring or killing someone else. So it is morally correct to obey the speed limit. It's my thought that you will have to answer to God even your disobeying something as simple as the speed limit.

We may have to agree to disagree. Civil fines are just that civil. Let me give you an example. In NJ fireworks are illegal. However you drive over to PA and you can buy fireworks. I know it's not just me but crossing the state line does not change ones moral beliefs. I look at speed limits etc in a similar fashion. Exceeding a posted speed limit may be done with or with out intent. It has no moral basis. It's done by a calculation of what the road traffic should be. As we travel from state to state you see speed limits change because for what ever the reason. Some states just raised the limit...are they now immoral? Of course not.

I think we should obey the law but I just don't personally equate civil matters the same as moral ones. That's just my rationalization BTW.
 

PsyOps

Pixelated
We may have to agree to disagree. Civil fines are just that civil. Let me give you an example. In NJ fireworks are illegal. However you drive over to PA and you can buy fireworks. I know it's not just me but crossing the state line does not change ones moral beliefs. I look at speed limits etc in a similar fashion. Exceeding a posted speed limit may be done with or with out intent. It has no moral basis. It's done by a calculation of what the road traffic should be. As we travel from state to state you see speed limits change because for what ever the reason. Some states just raised the limit...are they now immoral? Of course not.

I think we should obey the law but I just don't personally equate civil matters the same as moral ones. That's just my rationalization BTW.

Yep… we’re going to agree to disagree. The morality is not defined by whether it’s a law here or there; it’s a matter of whether you know it’s a law or not and obey it. The moral of it is in obeying what you know is the law. Speed limits are the same… I’m not talking about whether you accidentally slip over the speed limit. If you consciously go over and stay over the speed limit you are in violation of the moral intent of that law. God demands we obey all laws of the land, not the ones we pick and chose.
 
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philibusters

Active Member
Yep… we’re going to agree to disagree. The morality is not defined by whether it’s a law here or there; it’s a matter of whether you know it’s a law or not and obey it. The moral of it is in obeying what you know is the law. Speed limits are the same… I’m not talking about whether you accidentally slip over the speed limit. If you consciously go over and stay over the speed limit you are in violation of the moral intent of that law. God demands we obey all laws of the land, not the ones we pick and chose.

Heres a philosophical question for you to ponder.

Hypothetical: You can to a step light. Unlike in the real world where you don't know what is going to happen if you go through that stoplight, you understand all the consequences of going through the stop light and 1) You won't get caught, 2) Nobody will get injured or harmed and 3) And it will not make you or anybody else more or less likely to run a stop light in the future.

Do you have a moral obligation to stop for the redlight.

To me you don't have a moral obligation to stop for the stoplight--but I am a legal realists which takes a less nuanced view of the law's moral obligation. Natural law theorist would say you still have a moral obligation to stop at the stop line.
 

PsyOps

Pixelated
Heres a philosophical question for you to ponder.

Hypothetical: You can to a step light. Unlike in the real world where you don't know what is going to happen if you go through that stoplight, you understand all the consequences of going through the stop light and 1) You won't get caught, 2) Nobody will get injured or harmed and 3) And it will not make you or anybody else more or less likely to run a stop light in the future.

Do you have a moral obligation to stop for the redlight.

To me you don't have a moral obligation to stop for the stoplight--but I am a legal realists which takes a less nuanced view of the law's moral obligation. Natural law theorist would say you still have a moral obligation to stop at the stop line.

In a word: Integrity = Doing what's right even when no one is looking.

The aim for Christians is to ALWAYS try to do what's right. And when I say 'try' it comes with the reality that we all make mistakes. It's too bad your hypotheticals don't exist. You'd have a heyday thwarting the law. You know it’s still the law regardless of whether you get caught and no one is hurt.
 

MMDad

Lem Putt
I will let u in on a little secret. THE GOVERNMENT HAS BEEN ENFORCING MORALITY SINCE THE BEGINNING. For real? You did not know that? If you have missed that well......I dont have much to offer you.

The only, ONLY question is going to be who's morality. That's it. It's always going to be that way. There is NO such government that does not legislate morality or lack their of. Any other notion is a fantasy.

There are various types of crimes - crimes against the person (assault, homicide), crimes against society (fraud, tax evasion), and crimes against morality (marriage and prostitution).

The government has no business enforcing morality. Do you have a better reason than "because that's the way we've always done it?"

Are you familiar with the slippery slope? The more you let the government enforce your morality, the more power you give them. When they get too much power, they start to enforce things that go beyond what you want enforced and suddenly you get up in arms. What if they decide to enforce Muslim morality instead of yours?
 

foodcritic

New Member
There are various types of crimes - crimes against the person (assault, homicide), crimes against society (fraud, tax evasion), and crimes against morality (marriage and prostitution).

The government has no business enforcing morality. Do you have a better reason than "because that's the way we've always done it?"

Are you familiar with the slippery slope? The more you let the government enforce your morality, the more power you give them. When they get too much power, they start to enforce things that go beyond what you want enforced and suddenly you get up in arms. What if they decide to enforce Muslim morality instead of yours?

Be prepared to put on your burka...:killingme:killingme
 

This_person

Well-Known Member
Why is polygamy illegal? Who does it harm?

You think we should not allow polygamy because someone might abuse the welfare system? That already happens - why not ban marriage entirely? People use it for welfare fraud, immigration fraud, and more. I knew a Navy couple who got married for the BAQ/VHA.

By the way, I said "let's get rid of any government incentives (taxes, etc.)" That would include welfare.

There are good societal reasons for incentivising marriage as it exists today.

According to one of our pointless government arms (HHS):
(Lack of traditional marriage has) caused a great deal, perhaps all, of the increases in child poverty between the early 1970s and the 1990s (Lerman 1996; Sawhill 1999). In addition, the shift toward single-parent families may have contributed to a higher incidence of other social problems, such as higher rates of school dropouts, of alcohol and drug use, of adolescent pregnancy and childbearing, and of juvenile delinquency (Lang and Zagorsky 2000; McLanahan and Sandefur 1994). Family structure has become so important to the well-being of American children that some observers now argue that marriage is replacing race, class, or neighborhood as the greatest source of division in the U.S. (Rector, Johnson, and Fagan 2001; Rauch 2001).​
So, why should we incentivise marriage? Because it lowers poverty, increases education and the benefits to society thereof, lowers drug use and other juvenile crimes, lowers adolescent pregnancy......

In short, it has profound effects - all by itself - on society at large.

Again, when same-gendered relationships can show the same benefit to society, they will deserve the same breaks and benefits.
 
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