Why gun laws/CCW works everywhere but here...

Cletus_Vandam

New Member
Here is a great article about what can happen if a gun is used in the commission of a crime in other states.

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05176/528420.stm

For pointing a gun during the conflict, Taylor stands to get a manditory 3-year stint, yet Florida allows concealed carry. Maryland could certainly stand to take a few lessons from FL in this department.

Will MD ever ease the restrictions of legally carrying a concealed firearm? The crime rates in our State continue to rise, yet the chance of carrying something to protect yourself are nill...
 

Lenny

Lovin' being Texican
Cletus_Vandam said:
For pointing a gun during the conflict, Taylor stands to get a manditory 3-year stint, yet Florida allows concealed carry. Maryland could certainly stand to take a few lessons from FL in this department.

Since the idiot attended college in Florida, I wonder if the prosecutor and the state have a criminal history on him. You don't hear about that in the press but it might explain why Florida is going after him so aggressively. In many other cases he would have been charged with assault for pointing the gun, but in this case the state appears to be loading up on him.

My personal positions are the kid needs to spend the time in jail, the Redskins need to admit they made a mistake and cut him loose, and Maryland needs to lighten up.
 

SamSpade

Well-Known Member
PREMO Member
Much as I'm against gun control laws - I also think there's other mitigating circumstances that will determine whether or not such things will work. One poster on here wrote "a day in the life" type story where, on the same day, a fellow motorist offered to close his gas cap in the pouring rain, while further north - in St. Mary's county - his son and girlfriend were in a violent confrontation with an irate motorist.

Maybe it's southern culture - but I think there's more to it than that. After all, we were talking Florida - which isn't terribly "Southern" even if it is to the South - and HERE, which we like to think of as 'Southern' and full of quaint southern courtesy.

Now, anecdotal comparisons don't prove anything. But they can be revealing. If you suddenly ARMED every road rage twit and drunken fool in the county, would things get better - or worse? If worse, why?

Probably worse, and probably because I don't think people see that the consequences of crime are all that *grave*. Maybe I'm not up on my latest crime stats, but I think if the general public felt that reaching into a car and smacking someone's head into the steering wheel a few times would land your butt swiftly in a very unpleasant cell next to Bubba, it wouled happen a lot less often. *FEAR* of certain incarceration works just as well as anything else.
 

2ndAmendment

Just a forgiven sinner
PREMO Member
SamSpade said:
Much as I'm against gun control laws - I also think there's other mitigating circumstances that will determine whether or not such things will work. One poster on here wrote "a day in the life" type story where, on the same day, a fellow motorist offered to close his gas cap in the pouring rain, while further north - in St. Mary's county - his son and girlfriend were in a violent confrontation with an irate motorist.

Maybe it's southern culture - but I think there's more to it than that. After all, we were talking Florida - which isn't terribly "Southern" even if it is to the South - and HERE, which we like to think of as 'Southern' and full of quaint southern courtesy.

Now, anecdotal comparisons don't prove anything. But they can be revealing. If you suddenly ARMED every road rage twit and drunken fool in the county, would things get better - or worse? If worse, why?

Probably worse, and probably because I don't think people see that the consequences of crime are all that *grave*. Maybe I'm not up on my latest crime stats, but I think if the general public felt that reaching into a car and smacking someone's head into the steering wheel a few times would land your butt swiftly in a very unpleasant cell next to Bubba, it wouled happen a lot less often. *FEAR* of certain incarceration works just as well as anything else.
Experience from the 37 states that permit either open or concealed carry indicates that violence, including road rage, decreases.
 
B

Bruzilla

Guest
As always... the Devil's in the details:

From the Miami Sun Sentinal:

"According to an arrest affidavit, Taylor and a friend drove to a home in Miami-Dade's West Perrine neighborhood and confronted two men standing outside. Taylor pointed the gun at the men and demanded to know where the ATVs were and then drove away without firing a shot.

But he returned about 10 minutes later with a larger group of friends and a street brawl broke out. Taylor tried to punch one man but missed, said police. He then grabbed the man, Ryan Hill, 21, and began fighting with him, police said. One of Taylor's companions, Charles Caughman, chased another man with a baseball bat, police said."

That's the official version based on what's been published to date. Taylor's story is this:

"Taylor dropped off the ATVs at his friend's house for storage. The friend called Taylor several days later to tell him the ATVs disappeared. Taylor then learned that a group of men were hawking the ATVs in West Perrine.

Taylor and his friend drove to the house to "keep surveillance of the home," but a group of men in three cars surrounded the two, the attorney said. When Taylor returned with more friends, Carhart said, one of the men began pummeling him.

Taylor returned to his friend's house and planned to call the ATV dealer in Fort Lauderdale and report the incident to the police, said the attorney. While Taylor was inside, a group of men drove up and sprayed the house and Taylor's 2005 GMC Yukon with bullets. Nobody was hurt. No arrests have been made in that incident."

I find Taylor's account to be pretty unbelieveable. First off, he's the son of a chief of police down here, so he would certainly know to call the police and not go to a house to "keep surveillance." Second, he talks about being surrounded by men in three cars, but that begs the question: what did they do to get surrounded by men in three cars? They had to have done something. Then, he comes back with his posse of friends to again confront the alledged thieves... again he would know better than to do that.

Looking at the police account, it sounds like Taylor was told that some guys had stollen his ATVs, and he headed over to the house with a gun to confront them. An argument ensued, and he pulled the gun out to intimidate the people, and that's dead-on against the law down here. You can brandish, and use, a gun to protect yourself, your property, and the lives and properties of others down here without consequence, but you dang sure can't brandish one to threaten someone. That's assault with a firearm just about anywhere you go. And if you leave and come back with more guys, and start throwing punches, you're getting hit with the battery charge too.

There's a tremendous amount of freedom in regards to firearms down here, but there's also a tremendous amount of responsibility that you take in hand with the gun when you pick one up, and if you abuse that responsibility, as Taylor did, you're going to get arrested and you're going to do some time. All Taylor had to do, in either account, was to pick up the phone and call the police. There was no immediate threat, no immediate danger, and the cops could have arrived at the house sooner than he could have. I hope this guy gets the three years.
 
B

Bruzilla

Guest
SamSpade said:
Much as I'm against gun control laws - I also think there's other mitigating circumstances that will determine whether or not such things will work. One poster on here wrote "a day in the life" type story where, on the same day, a fellow motorist offered to close his gas cap in the pouring rain, while further north - in St. Mary's county - his son and girlfriend were in a violent confrontation with an irate motorist.

Maybe it's southern culture - but I think there's more to it than that. After all, we were talking Florida - which isn't terribly "Southern" even if it is to the South - and HERE, which we like to think of as 'Southern' and full of quaint southern courtesy.

Now, anecdotal comparisons don't prove anything. But they can be revealing. If you suddenly ARMED every road rage twit and drunken fool in the county, would things get better - or worse? If worse, why?

Probably worse, and probably because I don't think people see that the consequences of crime are all that *grave*. Maybe I'm not up on my latest crime stats, but I think if the general public felt that reaching into a car and smacking someone's head into the steering wheel a few times would land your butt swiftly in a very unpleasant cell next to Bubba, it wouled happen a lot less often. *FEAR* of certain incarceration works just as well as anything else.

My son returned from Maryland yesterday, and I got some additional information about the incident. It turns out that the woman who battered his friend was driving on a suspended license, had no insurance, and had an outstanding warrant on her when the deputies caught up with her. So... I doubt that any education on the penalties for battery on a minor would have done much to disuade her from attacking someone. When you're breaking that many laws, what's one more?

As for arming every law abiding citizen AND road rage twit and drunken fool, here are some numbers. About 35,000 CWPs are issued throughout Florida every year, with about half of this number being renewals. That's out of a population of roughly 17,025,000 that's growing faster than just about any other state. So, only about 1 in every 320-350 people in Florida has a permit, and of those I would guess about 1 in 50 carry a weapon all the time. I have had a CWP for nine months and I've never carried a weapon yet, and nobody who I know that has a CWP actually carries a weapon of any kind. So, the presence of a "lax" CWP program does not translate into an "everybody grab up a gun!" mentality, even after ten years.

Lastly, the point that I was making about my son's and mine events were not to contrast Maryland and Florida, but to contrast Maryland and Clay County, Florida, specifically because churches have such a huge effect on this county. It's not a "Southern" thing, but a God thing. Well over half of the population of the county go to church on Sundays, so the odds of finding a good-natured churchgoer on the road in Clay County is a lot higher than finding one in Maryland.
 

rraley

New Member
You see what happens when you draft players from the University of Miami? All of them just fall into legal trouble.
 

Cletus_Vandam

New Member
2ndAmendment said:
Experience from the 37 states that permit either open or concealed carry indicates that violence, including road rage, decreases.


Thanks for bringing that up before I got the chance to say the same thing.

The tight-arse liberal counties that seem to run this state, (Montgomery, Baltimore, etc.) all drive the politicians into their gun-control frenzied frame of mind. Yet all them are protected with body guards who carry.

Everyone who thinks that concealed carry permits will be problematic always seems to bring up the potential “drunk with a gun” or road rage as deterrents for relaxing these requirements here in Maryland. Do any of you think that the people living in Virginia, Florida, Arizona, or any of the other dozens of states that allow concealed carry have more polite drivers and don’t drink???? When are people living in Maryland going to realize that criminals know you have no means to protect yourself and that the police are not everywhere all the time?

Violent crime rates drop in every state that permit concealed carry. Even if you elect not to exercise the ability to carry, you will still gain protection from this type of law passing here in Maryland. Instead of everyone being looked at as a potential target; would-be criminals have now idea whether or not you are armed.

I’ve heard all the arguments and none of them make sense.
 
B

Bruzilla

Guest
The thefiringline.com forums look interesting, but the thehighroad.org forums read like a bunch of nuts, kooks, and kids.

We shooters here at SOMD take pride in accuracy and detail in our commentary, and take discussions of shooting very seriously.
 
Cletus_Vandam said:
...Instead of everyone being looked at as a potential target; would-be criminals have no idea whether or not you are armed.

It's called the "keep 'em guessing" mentality. :whistle:

Wouldn't it be better to have a robber not know whether or not you are a gun toter, just the fact that you MIGHT be will deter a majority of them.
 

SamSpade

Well-Known Member
PREMO Member
teverheart2002 said:
It's called the "keep 'em guessing" mentality. :whistle:

Wouldn't it be better to have a robber not know whether or not you are a gun toter, just the fact that you MIGHT be will deter a majority of them.
My skepticism is derived from the mentality of most of these thugs. Their approach to life seems to be "if I ain't seen it, it ain't never happened". Translation: they stupid. I doubt it ever crosses their mind, because it just ain't gonna happen to them. Do they gotta gun? I just shoot they azz.

Same kind of mentality causes some of these punks to drive over 120 mph on a crowded Beltway.
 

2ndAmendment

Just a forgiven sinner
PREMO Member
SamSpade said:
My skepticism is derived from the mentality of most of these thugs. Their approach to life seems to be "if I ain't seen it, it ain't never happened". Translation: they stupid. I doubt it ever crosses their mind, because it just ain't gonna happen to them. Do they gotta gun? I just shoot they azz.

Same kind of mentality causes some of these punks to drive over 120 mph on a crowded Beltway.
Like I posted, experience in states that have CCW prove that the crime rates fall.
 
B

Bruzilla

Guest
SamSpade said:
My skepticism is derived from the mentality of most of these thugs. Their approach to life seems to be "if I ain't seen it, it ain't never happened". Translation: they stupid. I doubt it ever crosses their mind, because it just ain't gonna happen to them. Do they gotta gun? I just shoot they azz.

Same kind of mentality causes some of these punks to drive over 120 mph on a crowded Beltway.

The best proof that the threat of guns deters crime is still the case of attacks on foreign tourists coming to Miami during the early 1980s. They would have their cars crashed into, and then they would be robbed at gun/knife point. Once a couple of the thugs were caught, the cops discovered that the robbers were targeting cars with the "Z" rental car tags because of the (then) new law that allowed Floridians to have loaded guns in their cars. They attacked rental cars because they were the only cars the thugs knew wouldn't have a gun in them. Once the rental cars started having standard numbers, and the thugs couldn't tell who was local and who was a tourist, the attacks stopped.

The same has been true across the board for crimes in a vehicle, especially drive-up ATM robberies. The mere threat that there could be an armed citizen, rather than a sitting duck, in the car was enough to deter the bad guys.
 
J

JWB_CWB

Guest
Well like any open forum it is impossible to keep all the nuts, kooks and kids away, and it might take some sifting but both sites have some real good info. Every now and then you get "the best round for Zombies" thread. but.......both sites have a few members who are very active in Maryland shall issue. In particualr a guy named Harry Tutle on THR.org
 
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B

Bruzilla

Guest
Ah yes... the Shall Issue law... the often spoken of, but never seen, pot o' gold at the end of the Maryland Shooter's rainbow. As I sit here gazing at my Florida CWP, that I only had to pay $40 and sit through a four-hour class to get since I am a law-abiding citizen, and remember why it was I left Maryland, I remember that there are some shooters who have not been so blessed. :cheers:

Everytime I go to the gun range and talk to other shooters about CWPs, and I tell them that Maryland is so strict that corrections officers, who have their lives threatened every day, don't meet the requirements for a CWP, they think I'm making stuff up. They don't believe that any state besides New York and California could be that screwed up.
 
J

JWB_CWB

Guest
I agree

If I didn't have my entire large family here and could easliy relocate in my job with similar pay I'd be out of here too.
 
Bruzilla said:
Ah yes... the Shall Issue law... the often spoken of, but never seen, pot o' gold at the end of the Maryland Shooter's rainbow. As I sit here gazing at my Florida CWP, that I only had to pay $40 and sit through a four-hour class to get since I am a law-abiding citizen, and remember why it was I left Maryland, I remember that there are some shooters who have not been so blessed. :cheers:
QUOTE]

With my CCW for Oklahoma I had to take a one day class, for Washington State, as a non-resident all I had to do was pay $60. I am sad that I won't get to carry in Maryland.
 
Received this today from my hubby and thought that it was interesting considering the topic.

Subject: Something to consider


There has been an average of 160,000 troops in IRAQ during the last 22 months, which calculates to a firearm death rate of 60 per 100,000.

The firearm death rate for Washington D.C. is 80.6 per 100,000.

That means that you are 25% more likely to be shot and killed in our Nation's Capitol, which has some of the strictest gun control laws in the nation, than you are in Iraq.

*Conclusion*: We should immediately pull out of Washington, D.C.
 
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