Women Serving in Combat in Iraq

[itsbob]

I agree that, on average, women are physically weaker then men, and this would be a disadvantage in close physical combat. But this argument is totally negated by the fact that the military will throw any old male into physically challenging positions without a thought.

I saw guys, when in the navy, who didn’t even have the strength to open and close the valves that were part of their watch station. But the navy had no problem assigning them to that rating and keeping them in it for the length of their service.

The military is more then willing to take men who are in poor physical shape or physically below average and who can barely pass a prt. As such, there are more then enough women in good physical shape that can do the job just as good or better.

Well, I would say you are speaking of the Navy, and not the Army or Marines.. I can tell you there was a difference in physical training between a say a finance clerk and an infantryman. Combat Arms soldiers PT'd (worked out) at LEAST once a day M-F, Monday was our BIG day, 5 - 10 mile run, and about 45 minutes of calestenics (sp?). If we were preparing for ARTEP our somekind of platoon on platoon competition they would ratchet it up to two times a day, with "suggested" work-outs on Saturday. Where other soldiers would PT (play Volleyball or basketball) MAYBE twice a week.

Granted EVERYONE in the Army had to pass the PT test (push ups, sit-ups, and 2 mile run) every six months with a minimum score 0f 180/300, Combat Arms commanders would generally raise the bar for passing for their units. Now this is just the OFFICIAL work outs. This does not include the job proficiency training.. the 10 - 20 mile walks with 75 - 100 pounds on your back, the weeks long patrols on foot.. etc etc.. AND if a soldier failed ONE PT test he was put on Fat Boy training.. EXTRA PT, longer runs.. forced diets etc. if you failed TWO you looked for new emloyment outside of the Army.

 

[migtig]

Well, I would say you are speaking of the Navy, and not the Army or Marines.. I can tell you there was a difference in physical training between a say a finance clerk and an infantryman. Combat Arms soldiers PT'd (worked out) at LEAST once a day M-F, Monday was our BIG day, 5 - 10 mile run, and about 45 minutes of calestenics (sp?). If we were preparing for ARTEP our somekind of platoon on platoon competition they would ratchet it up to two times a day, with "suggested" work-outs on Saturday. Where other soldiers would PT (play Volleyball or basketball) MAYBE twice a week.

Granted EVERYONE in the Army had to pass the PT test (push ups, sit-ups, and 2 mile run) every six months with a minimum score 0f 180/300, Combat Arms commanders would generally raise the bar for passing for their units. Now this is just the OFFICIAL work outs. This does not include the job proficiency training.. the 10 - 20 mile walks with 75 - 100 pounds on your back, the weeks long patrols on foot.. etc etc.. AND if a soldier failed ONE PT test he was put on Fat Boy training.. EXTRA PT, longer runs.. forced diets etc. if you failed TWO you looked for new emloyment outside of the Army.

True enough and medics carried twice the gear. We not only had our rucks, but a minimum of a 2 additional bags with medical gear and a weapon. I know I did extra gym time just so that I could carry everything, cause I admit to being a short scrawny runt - but I did it. I actually carried more gear than a grunt and worked three times as hard and got twenty times the crap and none of the credit. :shrug: But I can tell you this, everytime, I talk to one of the guys I served with I am still their doc, so I earned their respect.

 

[Bruzilla]

I agree that, on average, women are physically weaker then men, and this would be a disadvantage in close physical combat. But this argument is totally negated by the fact that the military will throw any old male into physically challenging positions without a thought.

I saw guys, when in the navy, who didn’t even have the strength to open and close the valves that were part of their watch station. But the navy had no problem assigning them to that rating and keeping them in it for the length of their service.

The military is more then willing to take men who are in poor physical shape or physically below average and who can barely pass a prt. As such, there are more then enough women in good physical shape that can do the job just as good or better.

I beg to differ. I served as a Naval Aircrewman for 10 years, and we were always having to watch our weight in order to be able to fly. An aircrewman who was overweight was grounded until he passed muster with the flight surgeon. Also, I can't remember ever flying around very many fat, out-of-shape, SEALs while I was in either.

I would agree with you that there is no shortage of fat, old, overweight, E-7s and above in the Navy, but these guys are manning desks, not performing CQ combat operations. How "inshape" do you need to be to type on a keyboard? And I find it a bit of a stretch that guys were too weak to open and close valves. I spent a year on the Saratoga and saw lots of fat guys turning lots of knobs and opening lots of valves, especially down near shaft alley and in the engineering spaces. I don't recall anyone ever being too weak to do their job.

I've met quite a few women who do the job in the Navy that I used to do, and they do it quite well. But then again I wasn't expected to hump 70 pounds of equipment and a 12lb rifle from building to building in desert heat while people are shooting at me either. That's the mission of the combat soldier in Iraq today, and using the example of a fat boiler tech on some ship as a means to say fit women should be in combat is a mistake.

 

[newtosomd]

I have never served in combat with women, but I have always wondered how the presence of women(physical attractions, etiquette, etc) impacts the men. For example, if I was serving with a lady I would naturally try to help her out. Try to do things for her, etc. Does anyone have eperience in this area? Do you think it would impact the mission?

 

[migtig]

I have never served in combat with women, but I have always wondered how the presence of women(physical attractions, etiquette, etc) impacts the men. For example, if I was serving with a lady I would naturally try to help her out. Try to do things for her, etc. Does anyone have eperience in this area? Do you think it would impact the mission?

Help her out?! Ain't no way. You'd go with the pack mentality of trying to make it as difficult as possible on her as you could. I never was "helped out". I was harrassed, harangued, given buckets of grief, until I proved I could pull my own weight and theirs too and do a better job and shovel the shiyat right back at them. Then I was given grudging respect and left the f alone. In uniform I was never seen as a piece of a$$. I was seen more as an interloper - somebody who was treading in the hallowed "men only" domain without permission.

And I'll tell you this too, in combat I was not a woman, nor a female, nor any gender what so ever. I was the doc. I was their buddy. I was the nco. I was seen as many things, by many folks, but nobody treated me as a "little lady".

In my active duty career, I saw many guys who were charmers, ladies men, some gentlemen, but none ever acted that way with a uniformed woman. And it didn't matter how "hot" of a woman she was. I know me and a few of my female buddies would do road trips just to get out of the military towns and be somewhere we could be seen as women.

 

[newtosomd]

Help her out?! Ain't no way. You'd go with the pack mentality of trying to make it as difficult as possible on her as you could. I never was "helped out". I was harrassed, harangued, given buckets of grief, until I proved I could pull my own weight and theirs too and do a better job and shovel the shiyat right back at them. Then I was given grudging respect and left the f alone. In uniform I was never seen as a piece of a$$. I was seen more as an interloper - somebody who was treading in the hallowed "men only" domain without permission.

And I'll tell you this too, in combat I was not a woman, nor a female, nor any gender what so ever. I was the doc. I was their buddy. I was the nco. I was seen as many things, by many folks, but nobody treated me as a "little lady".

In my active duty career, I saw many guys who were charmers, ladies men, some gentlemen, but none ever acted that way with a uniformed woman. And it didn't matter how "hot" of a woman she was. I know me and a few of my female buddies would do road trips just to get out of the military towns and be somewhere we could be seen as women.

thanks for the insight
The proper perspective is everthing.

 

[itsbob]

True enough and medics carried twice the gear. We not only had our rucks, but a minimum of a 2 additional bags with medical gear and a weapon. I know I did extra gym time just so that I could carry everything, cause I admit to being a short scrawny runt - but I did it. I actually carried more gear than a grunt and worked three times as hard and got twenty times the crap and none of the credit. :shrug: But I can tell you this, everytime, I talk to one of the guys I served with I am still their doc, so I earned their respect.

I had/ have all the respect in the world for combat medics.. they used to look like weebles walking patrol.. pack on the back, and one just as big on the front.. I got medevaced to WRAMC about 4 years after leaving Germany, and one of my "docs" was on the clinic as a civilian tech.. he was still my doc, and we shared a lot of war stories while he was there.. he always volunteered to go out with the Recon platoon he wasn
t oo fond of the infantry guys, and he knew we trained harder, and did a lot more exciting training then the grunts, meant a lot more work for him, a lot more walking, and a few more injuries to treat but he loved to train with us, and he fit right in.. to the point where we assumed he was in our platoon and not just attached. Not EVERY Medic in the Army got to play with explosives, and shoot about every weapon in the inventory, but he did!!

 

[mAlice]

Remember the movie GI Jane where the Senator says that America isn't ready for their women to come home in body bags?

You're one of those people who talks to hear himself, aren't you? You don't really listen or absorb what others are contributing to the conversation.

 

[Bruzilla]

I have never served in combat with women, but I have always wondered how the presence of women(physical attractions, etiquette, etc) impacts the men. For example, if I was serving with a lady I would naturally try to help her out. Try to do things for her, etc. Does anyone have eperience in this area? Do you think it would impact the mission?

I was in Patrol Squadron Five, and we were picked as the test squadron for women on the Atlantic side. We had about 8-10% women in our squadron during the five years that I was there and here's what I found:

1. Most of the women who came to the squadron arrived with a great sense of commitment and determination to do their jobs. However, over time, many became lazy because guys would go out of their way to help her out, just as you suspected.
2. Although I am sure there were some older guys who resented women being in the outfit, I didn't see a lot of people trying to make things harder. Generally, everybody has a hard time and it's not worth the extra effort to make someone else's life harder.
3. Only one hetero woman, in five years, who arrived single, left single. No matter how short, tall, ugly, fat, thin, etc., there was almost always somebody who would marry them.
4. We had two confirmed lesbians in the squadron, but they were both outstanding workers so everyone pretty much turned a blind eye to them.
5. I saw cases where women dated senior males, and used those relationships to get out of trouble. This was not a majority action, just a few.
6. I was always hoping they would let females do my job, as I would rather spend 12 hours in a P-3C sitting nest to a sweet-smelling woman than some sweaty guy... but they didn't allow women AWs until after I was gone.