Your Cross?

[brendar buhl]

That is the point in seeking out the truth (as Christ said to do) then you too will have the answers - but not some one else's answers posing as your own...

I assure you that I will not try to take credit for any of your answers.

 

[2ndAmendment]

Wow. I was really surprised when I got on the computer to find all of this interest in the thread that I had posted. Come to find out, very little of the conversation had to do with the topic.

....

And now to everyone else, I enjoyed reading all of your ideas. I was not asking out of ignorance but rather to broaden my point of view on the matter.
Some of you expressed the classical explanation of the verse which is actually what I’ve been pulling away from lately, the idea that the Christian life is burdensome. It usually goes along with the idea that we need to wait until we pass from this world to the next to experience the “Kingdom of Heaven”. I’m wondering if in some ways we can’t pass from this world, after all John the Baptist preached, “The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand.”
I’ve been thinking lately about my human perspective and what it means to die to self. If I look at the context in the Gospel of Matthew Jesus says this about your “cross” right after he admonishes Peter for "having in mind the things of man instead of the things of God". I think that the “system” of this world (the things of man) is going to kill us. Its substance is the lumber of that cross upon which will hang the frame of our worldly self. I think that bearing our cross is the same dieing to self that Jesus mentioned earlier but now more vividly. But it is no burden, only the trading of the worthless things of this world for those of great value in the Heavenly Kingdom.

Thanks for sharing. I hope I didn't give the idea that I mind bearing the burden of being a Christian. The Holy Spirit bears the weight and lifts me. I believe that your equating the "cross" to dieing to self is accurate, but I do not see a conflict with what you term the classical view. I see your point as part of the classical view.

John the Baptist was referring to Jesus when he preached, “The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand.” Jesus said:

John 8:23 And He was saying to them, " You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world.

As far as passing from this world, I don't think that is what Jesus had in mind.

Matthew 5:14-15

14"You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden;

15nor does anyone light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on the lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house.

Christians cannot be the light of the world and withdraw from it.

I think when Jesus said:

Matthew 11:30 "For My yoke is easy and My burden is light."

, He was referring to salvation through Him. He said of the scribes and Pharisees:

Matthew 23:1-4

1Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to His disciples,

2saying: "The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses;

3therefore all that they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds; for they say things and do not do them.

4"They tie up heavy burdens and lay them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are unwilling to move them with so much as a finger.

It is a contrast of the many burdensome laws and sacrifices that the scribes and pharisees laid on the Jews as opposed to the acceptance of salvation through the one and only sacrifice needed done by Him on the cross.

Paul spoke of following Jesus as a burden but that God had relieved them of that burden:

2 Corinthians 1:8-11

8For we do not want you to be unaware, brethren, of our affliction which came to us in Asia, that we were burdened excessively, beyond our strength, so that we despaired even of life;

9indeed, we had the sentence of death within ourselves so that we would not trust in ourselves, but in God who raises the dead;

10who delivered us from so great a peril of death, and will deliver us, He on whom we have set our hope. And He will yet deliver us,

11you also joining in helping us through your prayers, so that thanks may be given by many persons on our behalf for the favor bestowed on us through the prayers of many.

So I maintain that the life of a Christian has burdens, even death, our sins are also burdens, but our burdens, spiritual or physical, are to be shared with and by other Christians

Galatians 6:1-3

1Brethren, even if anyone is caught in any trespass, you who are spiritual, restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness; each one looking to yourself, so that you too will not be tempted.

2Bear one another's burdens, and thereby fulfill the law of Christ.

3For if anyone thinks he is something when he is nothing, he deceives himself.

But as Paul did, Christians are to count our afflictions (burdens but not sins) as joy.

2 Corinthians 7:1-7

1Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

2Make room for us in your hearts; we wronged no one, we corrupted no one, we took advantage of no one.

3I do not speak to condemn you, for I have said before that you are in our hearts to die together and to live together.

4Great is my confidence in you; great is my boasting on your behalf I am filled with comfort; I am overflowing with joy in all our affliction.

5For even when we came into Macedonia our flesh had no rest, but we were afflicted on every side: conflicts without, fears within.

6But God, who comforts the depressed, comforted us by the coming of Titus;

7and not only by his coming, but also by the comfort with which he was comforted in you, as he reported to us your longing, your mourning, your zeal for me; so that I rejoiced even more.

 

[TexasPride77]

2A - I think you set the record straight and once AGAIN shown to everyone that JPC is just a troll ....

I nominate JPC as the Drama King....lol as it seems that all he can ever do is stir the mud...

 

[JPC, Sr.]

THE Preacher!

I assure you that I will not try to take credit for any of your answers.

That is cool.

When I came onto this Forum I asked the big question as does anyone know about the Jesus Seminar? and or does any one know Bible Scholar Criticism? Click here for link. and after I found out that no one here had the modern education then I backed off. So I too have questions and I will discuss it with others to find the answers, but when the others are not educated (or wrongly educated) then I stand alone and learn alone.

I love it when some one teaches me some meaningful new info.

 

[Midnightrider]

That is cool.

When I came onto this Forum I asked the big question as does anyone know about the Jesus Seminar? and or does any one know Bible Scholar Criticism? Click here for link. and after I found out that no one here had the modern education then I backed off. So I too have questions and I will discuss it with others to find the answers, but when the others are not educated (or wrongly educated) then I stand alone and learn alone.

I love it when some one teaches me some meaningful new info.

Where the hell does this idiot get this stuff, if it wasn't so sad it would be funny


i know this isn't new, but you are a total retard, not to mention a deadbeat MAROOOON!

 

[2ndAmendment]

That is cool.

When I came onto this Forum I asked the big question as does anyone know about the Jesus Seminar? and or does any one know Bible Scholar Criticism? Click here for link. and after I found out that no one here had the modern education then I backed off. So I too have questions and I will discuss it with others to find the answers, but when the others are not educated (or wrongly educated) then I stand alone and learn alone.

I love it when some one teaches me some meaningful new info.

Yeah. Get your ears tickled. When it comes to Truth, you do this

 

[brendar buhl]

2A,
I think that when John the Baptist said “The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand” he was saying more than, "Here's the messiah". When I say "pass from this world" I am not talking about withdrawling from or avoiding the world or not having anything to do with the world. I'm talking about living as Jesus did. Jesus turned the "system of the world" upside down. He made the weak strong and the poor valuable. Jesus lived as though people mattered and materialism did not. Here's the thing that I'm getting at:
I say that I believe in Jesus but I don't live like he told me to live. I don't value the weak and unpopular, I don't listen to other people, I care more about being "right" than about loving my brother. I'm selfish, no, I'm self absorbed. When Jesus talks about "salvation" (as you put it) He offers to save me from myself. That's why he requires that we "die to self". I don't think he just means that when you die you go to heaven. Jesus is trying to redeem us from this "world" right here-right now. That is how we experience the "Kingdom of Heaven".

I'm not saying that other people are looking at things "wrong", I'm just saying that this is how I'm looking at things right now.

 

[2ndAmendment]

2A,
I think that when John the Baptist said “The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand” he was saying more than, "Here's the messiah". When I say "pass from this world" I am not talking about withdrawling from or avoiding the world or not having anything to do with the world. I'm talking about living as Jesus did. Jesus turned the "system of the world" upside down. He made the weak strong and the poor valuable. Jesus lived as though people mattered and materialism did not. Here's the thing that I'm getting at:
I say that I believe in Jesus but I don't live like he told me to live. I don't value the weak and unpopular, I don't listen to other people, I care more about being "right" than about loving my brother. I'm selfish, no, I'm self absorbed. When Jesus talks about "salvation" (as you put it) He offers to save me from myself. That's why he requires that we "die to self". I don't think he just means that when you die you go to heaven. Jesus is trying to redeem us from this "world" right here-right now. That is how we experience the "Kingdom of Heaven".

I'm not saying that other people are looking at things "wrong", I'm just saying that this is how I'm looking at things right now.

OK.

Here is what I think. Christians are certainly to strive to be like Jesus; live like He did on earth, respect others like He did on earth, reprove others like He did on earth, go and preach like He did on earth and told us to, teach others like He did on earth, chastise the religious that were not Godly as He did on earth. How successful we are at doing so depends on our ability to yield self-control to Holy Spirit control. If a person is not indwelt by the Holy Spirit, doing so is impossible. As a Christian yields control to the Holy Spirit, that person is conformed to be more like Jesus. We cannot do good in our power or by our will. The flesh is incapable of anything good. It is the Holy Spirit that does good through us. I don't think we have to reject worldly blessings. If we are blessed greatly, then we should use those blessings for the glory of God recognizing that all blessing come from God.

While I, like you, would like to have heaven on earth, I disagree with your idea about what John the Baptist was proclaiming. The earth, the one we live on now is the domain of satan. As it says in Job:

Job 1:7 The LORD said to Satan, "From where do you come?" Then Satan answered the LORD and said, "From roaming about on the earth and walking around on it."

Satan is our accuser in heaven. Heaven is not on earth; they are separate. As I posted before:

John 8:23 And He was saying to them, " You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world.

and

Revelation 12:7-9

7And there was war in heaven, Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon The dragon and his angels waged war,

8and they were not strong enough, and there was no longer a place found for them in heaven.

9And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

This clearly states that heaven and earth are totally separate as are hell, earth, and heaven. Jesus taught that they are separate.

Luke 16:19-31

19"Now there was a rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, joyously living in splendor every day.

20"And a poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores,

21and longing to be fed with the crumbs which were falling from the rich man's table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores.

22"Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried.

23"In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.

24"And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.'

25"But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony.

26'And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.'

27"And he said, 'Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father's house--

28for I have five brothers--in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'

29"But Abraham said, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.'

30"But he said, 'No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!'

31"But he said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.'"

Since Jesus said this, I am convinced that at the time of death the soul no longer remains on earth but goes either to Hades (hell) or heaven. Verse 31 is a comment on the future by Jesus. People then and now do not believe the Old Testament, Moses and the Prophets, so people did and do not believe in Jesus even though He died on the cross and rose from the dead.

I recommend that you do what I do. I test what I think against the scriptures. If what I think doesn't conform, then what I think must be incorrect.

God bless your search for His Truth.

 

[brendar buhl]

2A, I am either a horrible communicator or you are just 100% completely missing my point. Thanks for the advice and all the Bible verses, but I am not saying that heaven and earth are the same place. Let me try one more time before I just give up. When ever Jesus told a parable he would say something like, "The Kingdom of Heaven is like..." or "The Kingdom of God is like..." I think that Jesus was explaining to us the way things are in the "spiritual world" or the "eternal world". My perspective on things is all messed up because I exist in a fallen world, a totally messed up system where Satan has tricked men into trading the truth for a lie and trading the riches of the eternal for the dirt of the temporary. Jesus is telling us (and John the Baptist was pointing to this) that we don't have to live in that trap any more. We can die to the system of the world and be made alive to what God is doing in the eternal, spiritual world. I'm not saying that we will be in heaven all of a sudden but Jesus is offering us the opportunity to look at things from the right perspective.

 

[2ndAmendment]

2A, I am either a horrible communicator or you are just 100% completely missing my point. Thanks for the advice and all the Bible verses, but I am not saying that heaven and earth are the same place. Let me try one more time before I just give up. When ever Jesus told a parable he would say something like, "The Kingdom of Heaven is like..." or "The Kingdom of God is like..." I think that Jesus was explaining to us the way things are in the "spiritual world" or the "eternal world". My perspective on things is all messed up because I exist in a fallen world, a totally messed up system where Satan has tricked men into trading the truth for a lie and trading the riches of the eternal for the dirt of the temporary. Jesus is telling us (and John the Baptist was pointing to this) that we don't have to live in that trap any more. We can die to the system of the world and be made alive to what God is doing in the eternal, spiritual world. I'm not saying that we will be in heaven all of a sudden but Jesus is offering us the opportunity to look at things from the right perspective.

I guess I have taken that Christians should look at things from a different perspective than the world for granted. Didn't mean to be obtuse.

 

[JPC, Sr.]

The Preacher!

Where the hell does this idiot get this stuff, if it wasn't so sad it would be funny


i know this isn't new, but you are a total retard, not to mention a deadbeat MAROOOON!

See here, "TexasPride77", this quote above this is one of the posters here that does the name calling with "idiot" and "retard" and "moron" and such. It is never done by me. I grew up years ago and it is that kind of poster that does all the baby talk and not me.

Now I am not telling "Mnr" or anyone else to stop it and I am not telling them to grow up as y'all do as y'all want, but I just want to point out that the childish name calling does not come from me, and that I respect other people in my postings.

 

[TexasPride77]

See here, "TexasPride77", this quote above this is one of the posters here that does the name calling with "idiot" and "retard" and "moron" and such. It is never done by me. I grew up years ago and it is that kind of poster that does all the baby talk and not me.

Now I am not telling "Mnr" or anyone else to stop it and I am not telling them to grow up as y'all do as y'all want, but I just want to point out that the childish name calling does not come from me, and that I respect other people in my postings.

JPC = obtuse