Your thoughts on Paul Hill execution?

[2ndAmendment]

Sorry I couldn't reply earlier; the proxy server cached a corrupted reply page and until it clears, I'm stuck.

Originally posted by Bertha Venation
Not if you're only reading the old testament, and not if you ignore Jesus Christ.

It should be obvious that I read both the Old and New Testaments.

Jesus speaking in Matthew 5
17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

So Jesus believed in every word of the Old Testament.

Too many people that label themselves Christian forget that the God of the Old Testament is the God of the New Testament - loving, forgiving, and exacting against those that do not obey Him.

1 Corinthians 6
9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

Matthew 7
21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

Everyone can go to heaven; not everyone will go to heaven. Repentance involves a very important step - a change of heart - an attitude of I don't every want to do that again because I love you Lord.

 

[Bertha Venation]

Originally posted by 2ndAmendment
It should be obvious that I read both the Old and New Testaments.

So Jesus believed in every word of the Old Testament.

Too many people that label themselves Christian forget that the God of the Old Testament is the God of the New Testament - loving, forgiving, and exacting against those that do not obey Him.

As I wrote, "That's how I read it. Of course, YMMV (your mileage may vary)." It seems you see many issues in stark black and white, 2A, but not everyone believes everything is in stark black & white.

Originally posted by 2ndAmendment
Everyone can go to heaven; not everyone will go to heaven. Repentance involves a very important step - a change of heart - an attitude of I don't every want to do that again because I love you Lord.

This, and your quote of I Cor. 6--what have they to do with this topic? :shrug: Maybe we can get it back to the topic: do you believe Paul Hill is in heaven and now has his reward there? Do you believe this murderer did God's will?

BTW, you wrote: "exacting against those that do not obey Him"--you sound like my father. I know you can't be old enough for that, though. Plus he doesn't own any firearms.

 

[Pete]

I think he is dead and thats all I have to say about that.

 

[2ndAmendment]

Originally posted by Bertha Venation
It seems you see many issues in stark black and white, 2A, but not everyone believes everything is in stark black & white.
This, and your quote of I Cor. 6--what have they to do with this topic? :shrug: Maybe we can get it back to the topic: do you believe Paul Hill is in heaven and now has his reward there? Do you believe this murderer did God's will?

Who knows, I may be old enough to be your father, but my daughter is not a homosexual.

I cannot answer whether Paul Hill is in heaven or not. I do not know if he repented his sin or not. That is between him and God; not mine to judge.

I used to see things in shades, but the more I read the Bible the more I realize that is not the way God sees it. I really want to conform my life to His way.

 

[Bertha Venation]

Originally posted by 2ndAmendment
Who knows, I may be old enough to be your father, but my daughter is not a homosexual.

Yeah, you and my dad would get along just great. According to him, his daughter (the youngest of three) isn't a homosexual, either. Oh, you can't imagine the guilt he feels, 2A--as if he had anything to do with it. :shrug:

Originally posted by 2ndAmendment
I used to see things in shades, but the more I read the Bible the more I realize that is not the way God sees it. I really want to conform my life to His way.

L'chaim! More power to you. Be happy.

edit: Oops, forgot--thanks for answering my question.

 

[Larry Gude]

We are and must be...

...a society of laws.

I believe that that was the clear thought process of our founders and I believe it is the only way we can have a just society where we are all equal under the law.

Because of this I believe the individual is paramount in our society; if you are following the law you MUST be protected and defended by the society.

Because of this I believe that because Hill took the most he could that he must pay the most possible; his life. Anything less cheapens what he took and puts the individual in the same class as property; replaceable. This is, to me, unconscionable in my United States..

Mr. Hill commited murder under our laws, plain and simple and he got what he deserved for premeditated murder; the forfeiture of his life.

He is/was free to worship as he saw fit under the law and had an obligation to his faith to fight for all he is/was worth against something he was profoundly against. This gave him no more right to murder than it did to John Brown some 145 years ago who also fought something he considered an abomination.

They are of a kind. They put their faith ahead of our laws.

 

[Hessian]

I guess I nailed that other posting on another thread even though "I don't know anything about the gay lifestyle"...I referred to the misery that is associated with the "gay lifestyle"...odd that Bertha didn't admit to the misery she put her father through. Well, at least now she has confessed. oh well.

Regarding the death of the Mr Hill.
He readily admitted to what he did...and I believe he voluntarily gave up the appeal process--thus accepting that he must die for what he did. But what he said is also true: "no more babies will die there today."
Might he be on the same plain as John Brown at Harper's Ferry in 1859?

The murders he committed were grisly, violent, and premeditated. The punishment fit the crime. Mr Hill is now at rest...I am not willing to speculate over the conversation he's just had.

 

[Bertha Venation]

Originally posted by Hessian
I guess I nailed that other posting on another thread even though "I don't know anything about the gay lifestyle"...I referred to the misery that is associated with the "gay lifestyle"...odd that Bertha didn't admit to the misery she put her father through. Well, at least now she has confessed. oh well.

I have? How do you figure that? Please elaborate. Oh, please do. You cast your bait, and I bit. Let's play it out. But let's play it out on one of the other threads, where it'd be on topic. What do you say? Feel free to view my more detailed response here. Thanks.

 

[Bertha Venation]

Originally posted by Hessian
The murders he committed were grisly, violent, and premeditated. The punishment fit the crime. Mr Hill is now at rest...I am not willing to speculate over the conversation he's just had.

One of the reasons I oppose capital punishment is that I don't believe people like this religious freak Hill deserve "rest." :shrug: But then, it's not mine to judge that anymore than it's mine to sentence him to death.

 

[vraiblonde]

Originally posted by Bertha Venation
One of the reasons I oppose capital punishment is that I don't believe people like this religious freak Hill deserve "rest."

What are some other reasons? Because I don't believe taxpayers should be forced to support criminals. That's just wrong. Why should I have to pay for this guy's room and board, food, entertainment, etc.? Not to mention his legal fees for endless appeals and imagined civil right s violations.

Most, if not all, criminals won't get a "rest" anyway - certainly they will go straight to Hell. Unless God wants a bunch of rapists and murderers hanging around.

 

[Bertha Venation]

Originally posted by vraiblonde
What are some other reasons? Because I don't believe taxpayers should be forced to support criminals. That's just wrong.

More wrong than taking a human life?

I don't have the answers. I'm sorry. I'm not going to tell you I think it's right that we taxpayers should pay for these azzholes to live out their miserable lives (although I think we'd all like it if they were denied toilets--but that wouldn't be fair to the guards).

I don't know how many ways I can say it: IMO it is not our place to say when another person's time is up, anymore than it was, say, Hill's right to say when the doc's and his bodyguard's time was up. Our justice system says that this is ours to judge. I disagree. God bless America.

Forced to choose between sanctioning the taking of a human life and knowing my taxes have to pay for the scum of the earth to live, I choose to accept taxation for that purpose.

Originally posted by vraiblonde
Unless God wants a bunch of rapists and murderers hanging around.

I guess some think he does. Many contend that God will forgive every rapist and murderer who walks the earth--provided they go sucking up to God in the right manner. I think that's at least one anti-DP contingent's reason for fighting against capital punishment; if we allow the state to execute a murderer before the murderer's repented, we've denied God the right to do his work in that person's life. (This, BTW, is not one of my reasons.)

 

[vraiblonde]

Originally posted by Bertha Venation
More wrong than taking a human life?

Yes. Read my sig line. You don't get the death penalty for writing bad checks - typically it's because you've committed a violent crime that's destroyed the lives of countless other Americans. I don't consider predators 'human'. Their victims are human, but not them.

How would you feel if something terrible happened to Kathy or your folks or someone else you loved, the person responsible gets life in prison and you, yes YOU, get to pay for their room and board, entertainment, gym equipment, legal fees, etc?

That's just wrong and, yes, more wrong than putting down a rabid animal.

 

[Bertha Venation]

Originally posted by vraiblonde
How would you feel if something terrible happened to Kathy or your folks or someone else you loved, the person responsible gets life in prison and you, yes YOU, get to pay for their room and board, entertainment, gym equipment, legal fees, etc?

I'd feel raped, no doubt about it, like someone raped me, ripped out my heart, etc. I honestly don't know, Vrai. If god forbid something like that happened to Kathy or another loved one, I might change my mind and demand blood. I have to be honest with myself about that. (And I try not to fault people who clamor for blood when they've been so harmed; I'm not in their shoes.*)

But I hope I wouldn't seek vengeance. I hope I could forgive in time, and if the mofo who did it was dead, I couldn't tell him he was forgiven. Telling the one who harmed you that he is forgiven is one of the most important and powerful parts of the process. To me, my taxes don't much matter in this much larger picture.

:shrug: Like I said, I don't have the answers. Neither am I a saint, wanting to forgive. I've lived 200 years in the last 40, and I've learned that forgiveness is the way to go, for my life, anyway. I deny myself that best option if I support the execution of the guy who hypothetically took my loved one away.

* I work with the widow of a sniper victim. I don't know her extremely well, but I consider her a friend. To my knowledge, she's anti-DP, even in her own case. When the opportunity presents itself, I'll ask her, and if you're interested, I'll let you know if I was mistaken.

 

[vraiblonde]

I'm not a "forgiveness" type. I'm a "fix your problem" type. For example, my kids do something stupid and get in trouble. I don't forgive them because the decision to punish was nothing personal in the first place, just as their "crime" was nothing personal. There's nothing to forgive - they did wrong and suffered the consequences of their actions.

It's not about vengeance. It's about being held responsible for your actions. I don't feel that 3 hots and a cot (along with various other perks and goodies) do that. Especially since prison is usually comfier for these people than how they used to live.

I'm not the person who wants to cut criminals into little pieces and drag them through the streets. I just want them gone so they'll never have the opportunity to hurt another person again.

 

[Dymphna]

Originally posted by Bertha Venation
I'd feel raped, no doubt about it, like someone raped me, ripped out my heart, etc. I honestly don't know, Vrai. If god forbid something like that happened to Kathy or another loved one, I might change my mind and demand blood. I have to be honest with myself about that. (And I try not to fault people who clamor for blood when they've been so harmed; I'm not in their shoes.*)

But I hope I wouldn't seek vengeance. I hope I could forgive in time, and if the mofo who did it was dead, I couldn't tell him he was forgiven. Telling the one who harmed you that he is forgiven is one of the most important and powerful parts of the process. To me, my taxes don't much matter in this much larger picture.
[/SIZE]

This is an honesty most people can't achieve. The problem I have is people who are against the death penalty who cannot face the question "What if it were my loved ones?" Yet they scream in protest anyway. They stand up and preach the moral wrongs of it as long as it's not their family that are the victims. When they face that question, and say "I don't know" only then can they further delve into the question and come up with the answer of whether their beliefs still hold.

 

[Larry Gude]

Bertha...

More wrong than taking a human life?

The state is not taking his life. His actions broke the law of the state and one of the possible punishments is execution.

You can't look at it as the state taking his life anymore than a cop taking you or I to jail for driving 100 mph on the highway or my kids having their weekend taken away because the broke a rule bad enough to get that punishment.

Hill gave his life by commiting a crime that cost that much if you're caught. The state took nothing. It didn't make this up as it went along. It did what is organized to do per the citizens.

You just think about what Vrai said, what if it happened to you? Even if you still don't want the murderer turned into dust and your co-worker feels as you do, I just think you are both wrong. I think you say that your loss or your friends loss just isn't that big of a deal if it demands punishment no worse than stealing national secrets that may or may not get people killed or some robbery three strikes and then life sentence crimes.

I say your loss is about as big as it can get. Same for me. Same for your friend at work. The only justice for pre-meditated murder is forfeiture of life. The only way you can argue reasonably otherwise is to hold the life of the innocent at lower value than the criminal. Feelings don't count here.

Also, any deal between criminals and their God can certainly be handled in any way the deity decides, post mortum included or they wouldn't be much of a God now would they?

Who are we to postpone or delay someones trip to the promised land? Be a helper!

 

[vraiblonde]

"I forgive you for raping and murdering my two-year-old."

How messed up is that?

 

[Bertha Venation]

Originally posted by vraiblonde
"I forgive you for raping and murdering my two-year-old."

How messed up is that?

IMO it's not for you or me to say if it's messed up. It is for the person whose child was raped and murdered to decide.

If your (hypothetical) two-year-old were raped & murdered, it's not for me to forgive the puke; neither do I have the right to demand, or even counsel, that you do so. I would never presume such a thing. I don't even think it's right for a pastor to preach from the pulpit "you must forgive."

To forgive is the most personal decision I can imagine--and it is a decision. It's not a feeling. It's not an emotion. It sure as hell ain't love. It's not even a happy moment to arrive at. For me, though, it was the only thing I could do that could help me close a few chapters and get the f### on with my life.

 

[Bertha Venation]

Re: Bertha...

Originally posted by Larry Gude
I think you say that your loss or your friends loss just isn't that big of a deal if it demands punishment no worse than stealing national secrets that may or may not get people killed or some robbery three strikes and then life sentence crimes.

I disagree. What else can I say? I don't want the loser off scot-free, and I've already stated what I feel about paying to warehouse the jerk for the rest of his life. And knowing that others disagree with me about that--really, you guys, what else can I say?

Originally posted by Larry Gude
The only justice for pre-meditated murder is forfeiture of life. The only way you can argue reasonably otherwise is to hold the life of the innocent at lower value than the criminal.

Again, I disagree. Look, Larry, I get what you and Vrai are saying. I really do. Truth to tell, in my uglier moments I think capital punishment should be a certain and swift reality for any child molester at the moment he is convicted, whether he kills his victim or not (for there are some things worse than death). But I can't support it because my conviction (not feelings--if I went with my feelings I'd be in your camp) is strong.

Not executing a murderer does not devalue his victim's life. It only does that if the victim's family feels that way.

Originally posted by Larry Gude
Also, any deal between criminals and their God can certainly be handled in any way the deity decides, post mortum included or they wouldn't be much of a God now would they?

(I don't think the god Paul Hill thought he was worshiping with that shotgun is much of a god anyway.)

Originally posted by Larry Gude
Who are we to postpone or delay someones trip to the promised land? Be a helper!

 

[Bertha Venation]

Originally posted by Bertha Venation
IMO it's not for you or me to say if it's messed up. It is for the person whose child was raped and murdered to decide.

And another thing: This forgiveness I'm talking about isn't an instant thing. I can't imagine a bereaved mother looking the b*stard in the face a week or a year or even ten years after, to say "I forgive you." It took nearly 30 years for me to forgive. And you know what? In one person's case, I have to renew the decision consciously every time he f#### things up again. (Long story; I'll spare you). It's not easy. It's not quick. And I don't claim everyone has to do it. And I don't claim to be the arbiter.