Another Fundy wacko bites the dust

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Chuckt

Guest
Now THERE is an interesting concept. A complete fallacy...but interesting, nonetheless.

Not a fallacy.

Matthew 7:5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

Jesus says to cast the beam out of your own eye. Did you do that yet? Or do you only follow one verse and not follow the other verses?
 

Radiant1

Soul Probe
Here's the full verse for context.

Matthew 7
1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

Personally, I think Chuckt's interpretation is a serious case of eisegesis (which means he puts the meaning he wants into the text) as opposed to exegesis (taking meaning from the text).

Considering men have a propensity to sin, it's highly likely that we're always going to have a mote in our eye; therefore, we aren't to pass judgment on anyone, and if we do we can be guaranteed to get the same in like manner from God. But, that's just my take on it; I'm not overly fond of throwing stones first* or usurping the judgments of God for that matter.

There is a difference between discernment and judgment in the Christian lexicon; however, Chuck is here speaking of judgment, which makes me cringe because I know from experience when you get too proud God gives you a smack down eventually. A little humility goes a long way. Some of us have to learn it the hard way I guess.


* We all know I have no problem throwing a stone back, but I never throw it first. :lol:
 

Gilligan

#*! boat!
PREMO Member
Not a fallacy.

Matthew 7:5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

Jesus says to cast the beam out of your own eye. Did you do that yet? Or do you only follow one verse and not follow the other verses?

Finally..after all these years (I'm 57) I encounter one so pure and perfect that he, and he alone, is in a position to judge all others. Well how about that? Did you pay extra for that feature?
 
C

Chuckt

Guest
Finally..after all these years (I'm 57) I encounter one so pure and perfect that he, and he alone, is in a position to judge all others. Well how about that? Did you pay extra for that feature?

You're 57? Congratulations. You learn something new every day.
 
C

Chuckt

Guest
Here's the full verse for context.

Matthew 7
1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

Personally, I think Chuckt's interpretation is a serious case of eisegesis (which means he puts the meaning he wants into the text) as opposed to exegesis (taking meaning from the text).

Considering men have a propensity to sin, it's highly likely that we're always going to have a mote in our eye; therefore, we aren't to pass judgment on anyone, and if we do we can be guaranteed to get the same in like manner from God. But, that's just my take on it; I'm not overly fond of throwing stones first* or usurping the judgments of God for that matter.

There is a difference between discernment and judgment in the Christian lexicon; however, Chuck is here speaking of judgment, which makes me cringe because I know from experience when you get too proud God gives you a smack down eventually. A little humility goes a long way. Some of us have to learn it the hard way I guess.


* We all know I have no problem throwing a stone back, but I never throw it first. :lol:

Are you saying that sin isn't willful? If sin isn't willful then isn't it like you accusing God that it is His fault? Didn't Jesus come to show that He could come as a man and not sin? If Jesus can come as a man and lay down his powers and not sin then why can't you? Sin is a choice.

Better check your eisegesis. It is based on a motivation to have no requirements, to not come in conflict with others, to not have to tell the truth, etc. When you are a friend of the world then you are against God because then you're offending Him.

What does the Bible mean that we are not to judge others?
http://www.gotquestions.org/do-not-judge.html

The cult of “Do not Judge”
http://www.letusreason.org/pent44.htm

Do not judge - Is that biblical? What does the Bible mean when it says we are not to judge others?

http://www.compellingtruth.org/do-not-judge.html

Should Christians Judge?
http://www.christianpost.com/news/should-christians-judge-132500/

Does the Bible say we should judge sin in other Christians?

http://www.amazingfacts.org/media-l...-we-should-judge-sin-in-other-christians.aspx

Judging
http://www.apologeticsindex.org/j14.html

Is Judging someone a sin?
http://www.clsnet.org/page.aspx?pid=776

Should Christians Judge?
http://www.toughquestionsanswered.org/2009/04/30/should-christians-judge/

Christians And Judging
http://www.christianissues.biz/judging.html

Does the Bible Tell Christians to Judge Not?
https://answersingenesis.org/bible-questions/does-the-bible-tell-christians-to-judge-not/

To Judge, or Not to Judge
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2005/july/22.52.html

So there you have it. Your word and understanding against Christianity Today, The Christian Post, apologetic ministries and pastors and teachers.
Everyone uses "Judge not lest you be judged" as a proof text but what does the Bible say?


We are to shadow box because we follow Paul who shadow boxed (1 Cor. 9:26-27). We are supposed to test by comparing spiritual things with spiritual: “Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.” (1Cr 2:13) The example is with testing what is excellent with that which differs:

Philippians 1:10 That ye may approve (dokimazo: test as in testing metals) things that are excellent (diaphero: that which differ); that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ;
You aren't testing your metals against things that differ so you are with offense in your doctrine.

What is the difference between 'rebuke' and 'judge'?
By Chuckt (c) 5-31-2009

What is the difference between the word "rebuke" and the word "judge"? Not much but the same word for "rebuke" in Revelation 3:19 is used in 1 Timothy 5:20, 2 Timothy 4:2, Titus 1:13, and Titus 2:15.

How many people have heard "judge not lest ye be judged"? It is very Biblical.

Revelation 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke (elegchō) and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

1) to convict, refute, confute
a) generally with a suggestion of shame of the person convicted
b) by conviction to bring to the light, to expose
2) to find fault with, correct
a) by word
1) to reprehend severely, chide, admonish, reprove
2) to call to account, show one his fault, demand an explanation
b) by deed
1) to chasten, to punish

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1651&t=KJV


1 Timothy 5:20 Them that sin rebuke (elegchō) before all, that others also may fear.

2 Timothy 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke (elegchō), exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

Titus 1:13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke (elegchō) them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;

Titus 2:15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke (elegchō) with all authority. Let no man despise

Is there really a big difference? Do you still believe the early church practiced "judge not lest ye be judged"? I learned a lot in doing this study.



Can anyone tell me when and who we are to judge???? ....Love bro. Joe

Isaiah 59:15 Yea, truth faileth; and he [that] departeth from evil maketh himself a prey: and the LORD saw [it], and it displeased him that [there was] no judgment

John 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

What was the direction given in the pastoral epistles?

2 Timothy 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove (correct), rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

Ephesians 5:11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove [them].

If we aren't salt of the earth then our relatioships won't be salt.

Matthew 5:13 Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.

The answer is if we are Jesus' disciples then we will accept reproof in our lives because we are told to repent and when we want to be Lord of our own lives then we are doulos (slaves) to sin which is why we should be the servant of all. When people don't want reproof in their life then they are saying they aren't willing to repent and they are Lord of their own life.

Mark 10:44 And whosoever of you will be the chiefest (prōtos, first), shall be servant (doulos, slave) of all.

Judging is hard as you have to master the word of God and it requires that Christians grow up and set their heart upright and that is hard because we have limitations as human beings due to our sinfulness, from being finite and from being part of God's infiniteness and omnicience through illumination and impulse of His word and the impulse of His holy spirit.

Genesis 4:9 And the LORD said unto Cain, Where [is] Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: [Am] I my brother's keeper?

If we want to be first and not our brother's keeper then as a Christian we should be the doulos or slave (Mark 10:44) of all.
 
C

Chuckt

Guest
That has always been a personal goal, in fact. In no small part, to avoid becoming..someone like you.

Yes and I posted ten links where apologetic ministries, lay people, a Christian magazine and others disagree with you on judging and I hope you learn something new today.
 

Gilligan

#*! boat!
PREMO Member
Yes and I posted ten links where apologetic ministries, lay people, a Christian magazine and others disagree with you on judging and I hope you learn something new today.


Nice try. But a miss and a fail. Maybe you will someday learn why you actually do not influence anyone..at all. Or you could join Westboro and call it good.
 
C

Chuckt

Guest
Nice try. But a miss and a fail. Maybe you will someday learn why you actually do not influence anyone..at all. Or you could join Westboro and call it good.

Saying it without any proof doesn't mean it is true.
 

Gilligan

#*! boat!
PREMO Member
Saying it without any proof doesn't mean it is true.

LOL. "Proof" That invalid observation in itself is proof enough that you have nothing to roll with. You are definitely Westboro material. Or some other cults I could name that have , sorry for you, already left the planet on their on volition.
 
C

Chuckt

Guest
LOL. "Proof" That invalid observation in itself is proof enough that you have nothing to roll with. You are definitely Westboro material. Or some other cults I could name that have , sorry for you, already left the planet on their on volition.

I suppose you would consider any denomination or church inside protestantism a "cult".

Judge with Righteous Judgment

http://www.watchman.org/articles/other-religious-topics/judge-with-righteous-judgment/

This is a counter-cult ministry. They have over 2,000 cults listed in their cult catalog and I stopped counting their number of cults after that.
 
C

Chuckt

Guest
Was John judging those he refused to baptize?

LOL. "Proof" That invalid observation in itself is proof enough that you have nothing to roll with. You are definitely Westboro material. Or some other cults I could name that have , sorry for you, already left the planet on their on volition.

Did John refuse to baptize those who didn't repent? (version 2)
By Chuckt © 1-18-2008

Was the John guilty of judging by refusing to baptize those who didn’t repent and how do you know who repented or not without judging?
Act 26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and [then] to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

Mat 3:1 ¶ In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea,

Mat 3:2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Mat 3:3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

He said that John the Baptist came in the Spirit of Esaias and "make his paths straight" resonates in my mind for some reason when it comes to repentance.

Mat 3:4 And the same John had his raiment of camel's hair, and a leathern girdle about his loins; and his meat was locusts and wild honey.

All the big shots, the well to do and religious dictators came out to hear John but John wasn't wearing clothes that the emergent Church would have worn back then in order to please them.

Mat 23:5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,

Notice that John was wearing clothing other than those in the Catholic Church would have been wearing (clothes to fit in like the Pharisees) and it wasn't clothing to fit in.

Mat 3:5 Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan,

Mat 3:6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.

Mat 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

Mat 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:

If John said,"bring forth ..fruits meet for repentance" and called them vipers then did John refuse to baptize them? Should we baptize vipers or should we ask them to show fruit first? How should we treat those who want to be baptized in the Catholic Church? Repeat reading Matthew 3:8 for the answer.
 
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Gilligan

#*! boat!
PREMO Member
Did John refuse to baptize those who didn't repent? (version 2)
By Chuckt © 1-18-2008

Was the John guilty of judging by refusing to baptize those who didn’t repent and how do you know who repented or not without judging?
Act 26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and [then] to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

Mat 3:1 ¶ In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea,

Mat 3:2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Mat 3:3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

He said that John the Baptist came in the Spirit of Esaias and "make his paths straight" resonates in my mind for some reason when it comes to repentance.

Mat 3:4 And the same John had his raiment of camel's hair, and a leathern girdle about his loins; and his meat was locusts and wild honey.

All the big shots, the well to do and religious dictators came out to hear John but John wasn't wearing clothes that the emergent Church would have worn back then in order to please them.

Mat 23:5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,

Notice that John was wearing clothing other than those in the Catholic Church would have been wearing (clothes to fit in like the Pharisees) and it wasn't clothing to fit in.

Mat 3:5 Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan,

Mat 3:6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.

Mat 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

Mat 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:

If John said,"bring forth ..fruits meet for repentance" and called them vipers then did John refuse to baptize them? Should we baptize vipers or should we ask them to show fruit first? How should we treat those who want to be baptized in the Catholic Church? Repeat reading Matthew 3:8 for the answer.

Keeping your small-minded self pretty busy without any effort, .Love it. Carry on..I swear you are winning people over. You go boy.
 
C

Chuckt

Guest
Never a good idea.

Here is a partial list from the Christian Research Institute on judging:

1 Corinthians 5:1-8 Paul judges the unrepentant son who is sleeping
with his step Mom.
Acts 13:9-12 Paul condemns Elymas the sorcerer
2 Timothy 3:5 "Have nothing to do with them at the end" CLEARLY it
requires judgment to discern that we shouldn't be with them.
2 Timothy 4:10 Shows Paul judging Demas.Titus 3:10 It takes discernment (Judgment) to deem necessary walking away.
1 TImothy 1:20 Hymenaus and Alexander judged by Paul.
1 Timothy 5:20-21 Public sin is to be PUBLICLY rebuked. To discern that
something is a sin is clearly Judging.
Galations 2:11-14 Paul PUBLICLY judges Peter.
Proverbs 28:23 Gives favor to a man who rebukes.
2 Timothy 3:16 Scripture is to be used for rebuking (Judging).
Titus 1:13 Paul commands rebuking to strengthen faith.
2 Timothy 4:2 Paul says a faithful servant is to rebuke.
Titus 2:15 Paul says to rebuke with authority and NOT to let anyone
despise you for it.
How about another one from Jesus?
Luke 17:3 "If your brother sins REBUKE him."
Proverbs 17:10 The righteous are IMPRESSED by rebuke.
Proverbs 9:8 Wise men LOVE rebuke.
Proverbs 19:25 The wise gain knowledge from being rebuked.
Proverbs 27:5 Open rebuke is better than hidden love.
James 5:19-20 It requires discernment to deem if necessary to turn
someone away from error.

-Christian Research Institute
 

Radiant1

Soul Probe
Are you saying that sin isn't willful?

No.

A good few of those verses are quite a stretch, but even so I could come up with just as many verses that say something different regarding judgment; however, I won't bother because you seem very adamant and justified in your self-righteousness. So be it, but don't ever say that myself and others didn't REBUKE you for your PRIDE.

1 Corinthians 1:29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.

If Catholics are justified by works, isn't their flesh trying to glory in God's presence?

I already told you Catholics are justified by grace with scripture and CC quotes. To continue to say differently is to be intellectually dishonest at the least and deliberately deceitful at the worst. This is exactly why I dislike people like you. It's one thing to be truly ignorant of what Catholicism teaches and have the wrong impression; however, once educated you should cease and desist with the misinformation, but you choose not to do that and continue to propagate a lie.
 
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