Larry Gude
Strung Out
Hey, lotta people around here think I'm a lib. :shrug:
It's the first sign someone isn't listening to a thing you're arguing when they reach for the pre conceived notion bin.
but you deny Christanity had a place ....
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Hey, lotta people around here think I'm a lib. :shrug:
It's the first sign someone isn't listening to a thing you're arguing when they reach for the pre conceived notion bin.
PsyOps
Pixelated
So, to make sure I understand your context… Muslims are simply a couple hundred years behind us and we need to just allow them to catch up? I mean you’re defining cultural difference. In context… what cultural differences existed between New America and the rest of the world? New America just established a completely new concept in that existing world, where most countries were ruled by kings and despots. That concept that exists virtually everywhere today; a so-called more civilized society than 237 years ago; and in this world we have a society of people that are so far behind the curve that their only recourse to push their agenda is to commit mass terror everywhere; butchering innocent people. And those, in that culture that aren’t committing the violence, are unable to see the wrong in this because it’s just part of their culture? It took us 100 years to come to terms with our wrongs, so Muslims need that same time. But if we put more accurate math to it… the Muslim religion has been around about 600 years less than Christianity, so we need to give them 600 years to catch up. They’ll eventually come to their senses about this, like we did. In the mean time…
PsyOps
Pixelated
Larry Gude
Strung Out
You're not?
Actually, I am very liberal as defined by classic liberal; individual rights, freedom, liberty, constitutional limits on the government to the benefit of the citizen.
That's why I can't be a Democrat and can no longer be a Republican. I was listening to Limbaugh for a bit today and it's really getting sad how he not only continues to try and promote those values and ideas and still has not come to grips that the GOP simply is no longer about that. I mean, he says the words, knocks the GOP, but it's this sort of lonely longing for something deeper that is simply gone.
Larry Gude
Strung Out
Not so much that because you're suggesting, or perhaps asking if I am suggesting, that they even intend to catch up. I intended to try and illustrate by starting with the reformation just how hard and long it has been for us, for Westerners, for supporters of the individual, Christians. Atheists. Agnostics. We STARTED on this path and it's not been easy.
So, really, that's THE place to start with Muslims, any conversation about it. There is NO doubt or argument about the intentions of Western values; the elevation of the individual. In my view, that's the first question concerning Islam; is it the intent, (this is me asking you as if you were a Muslim) of your faith to continually emphasis the individual in the service of the faith or is the individual subordinate in all ways?
That question doesn't get asked because the answer is not going to be encouraging to anyone trying to make excuses for them. This gets to the heart of Dubbya's and Obama's lie/misunderstanding of the faith as well. Islam, as I understand it, is, fundamentally, submission to their god in all things and all ways and, thus, there never was and never will be a reformation because, BECAUSE the book, as written, as understood, is THE intent than as it is now.
I mean, that's a good conversation to have. I am presuming this as I would if I were making the argument "The submission to god is the path to a better life" and leave it at that. That is their FAITH as I understand it and, as such, if so, that is in full opposition to modern Western and Christian values. I mean, we follow what they say, they argue that WE have betrayed our OWN faith which is bad enough for our own sake, in their view and intolerable in their sake as we threaten everything about theirs.
Larry Gude
Strung Out
See, I don't see it as new, at all. I see a direct line from the Reformation to us, a steady progression of individual purpose and freedom.
Larry Gude
Strung Out
And this brings it back full circle; they 'need' it IF, and this is the question, IF they support the concepts of the individual that we do. The violence is simple and, to me, understandable opposition to what our values are to theirs; the end of the bedrock of their very faith.
I mean, moderate Muslim, fundamentalist, same team when the fighting starts. And this is the thing libs like Maher are getting RIGHT; If you are a liberal, socially, for DAMN sure Islam sees you as the enemy and Obama, for whatever his purpose, does as grave a disservice to liberty and freedom as Dubbya did by being afraid to merely observe what is and an attempt at, to me, fairy tale.
PsyOps
Pixelated
The old ‘beacon on the hill’ thing. Our values should have some sort of influence on these people, if we only have the right conversation. Elevate the individual and recognize we are all born with certain liberties.
Makes me wonder… who was our beacon on the hill when we came to the reality that slavery and suppressing women’s right was wrong? I’d say nothing except God/morals and conscience.
But let’s agree that that ‘fundamental’ Islam completely submits to their god in all thing and all ways. How does this explain how some resort to abject violence while others don’t? This also demands the conclusion that they are ALL predisposed to the kind of violence we’re dealing with and must be dealt with. You have painted them all with the same color haven’t you? It also assumes that if there will “never will be a reformation”, what’s the point in having a conversation? They won’t change no matter how we talk with them about this.
While we’re having this conversation the violence continues. When a bomb goes off in a mall near you, butchering hundreds, what conversation will we have then? It seem you have already come to the reality that they aren’t going to change no matter what the conversation. What’s your next move.
Hijinx
Well-Known Member
Radicals cut off heads. Moderates give out candy and dance in the streets when it is over.
Larry Gude
Strung Out
Yeah but, there were plenty of very devout men who thought both the 'lesser' races and women were ordained by god to be subordinate to man. However, that tradition coupled with world philosophy and history lead to the men who laid down our cornerstones that, rough patches along the way has more often than not been that beacon.
Larry Gude
Strung Out
Human nature, right? Not everyone has the heart or the hardness or, if you see them as evil, the darkness or, if you see them as I do, devout, the courage of their convictions, to do violence in the name of ones god. Plus, there are a LOT of holy warriors working for their faith who are not on any battlefield. The violence they can do is as great, or greater, than beating someone senseless and immolating them. So, no, I don't intend to paint all with the same color. We had our Tories, we had our fence sitters at our founding and we've had our profit seekers who thoroughly enjoyed all our wars. There is the practical man, the impassioned man, the coward who can be lead, all points in between.
CleanTheSlateInSMC
Infidel
And you cannot get to radicalism without a stopover in conservatism.
Larry Gude
Strung Out
I have no idea. I thought, as I have said millions of times, I thought we were going there for real, to win, to impose, to dominate, to make thins right. I never once considered the possibility of Dubbya shirking from the task he saw right. I thought he had the courage and the steal to see it through. I thought the ghosts of Vietnam had been exorcised by his dad, never to arise again.
I mean, what can we do if that is what our 'A' team did? They lost a lot more than blood and treasure; they pissed away our credibility, the initiative and the time and place and, I think, our nation. Who is going to lead us to victory? How can they? We won't even name the enemy let alone confront him. So a bomb goes off. So, some mass murder happens. We going to ever be more united than we were in the months after 9/11? Let's not forget; Bush fed us
for 18 months making the case for his war because so many were not buying the Iraq thing. That's why I like it is critical that anyone who considers them America first needs to support people like Maher. He has credibility on this; a lefty that sees the mortal danger to individual rights.
PsyOps
Pixelated
I have no idea. I thought, as I have said millions of times, I thought we were going there for real, to win, to impose, to dominate, to make thins right. I never once considered the possibility of Dubbya shirking from the task he saw right. I thought he had the courage and the steal to see it through. I thought the ghosts of Vietnam had been exorcised by his dad, never to arise again.
I mean, what can we do if that is what our 'A' team did? They lost a lot more than blood and treasure; they pissed away our credibility, the initiative and the time and place and, I think, our nation. Who is going to lead us to victory? How can they? We won't even name the enemy let alone confront him. So a bomb goes off. So, some mass murder happens. We going to ever be more united than we were in the months after 9/11? Let's not forget; Bush fed us
That's why I like it is critical that anyone who considers them America first needs to support people like Maher. He has credibility on this; a lefty that sees the mortal danger to individual rights.
You and me… yeah, we’re going there to win… if we had our way. We don’t though.
I’m not the least bit a Maher fan. I don’t care what he has to say about much of anything. So I can’t comment on his take on this. Using ‘social liberal’ and ‘individual rights’ in the same sentence is pretty odd to me. There are far too many other people with far better credibility to support with my Americanhood.
Midnightrider
Well-Known Member
For slavery that beacon on the hill was the industrial and French revolutions. Those both drove changes throughout the Christian world with respect to slavery, labor, and individual liberty.
Larry Gude
Strung Out
Yawp
PsyOps
Pixelated
My ‘beacon on the hill’ comment (a Reagan quote) was in regard what Larry posted here:
This country HAS served as a ‘beacon on the hill’ for just about all of Europe, Canada, and much of the Far East, having modeled their ‘free societies’ of individual liberty and democratic systems after ours; this country has served as a ‘beacon on the hill’. Are we to dredge up our past in order to say we are not a shining example today? We seem to have mostly learned from our past and rectified those wrongs. It’s valid to say we have a long way to go in eradicating racism, bigotry, sexism, etc… But we are still looked to for setting the global example. Have we failed when it comes to Islam? Or is it arrogant for us to assume our way of life – individual liberty and democracy – should be recognized and practiced everywhere? I tend to think not.
But while we’re having conversations (rhetorically for our government having a conversation about our differences with Islam), the violence continues. The next video to come out will likely be a mass butchering of about 200 Coptic Christians. What do we do about this?
Larry Gude
Strung Out
Ah, yes. The catch-22, what to do?
As per the shining city on the hill, the beacon of freedom, THAT is, was us at our best, the EXAMPLE. The light. The positive idea and success story for all the world to look to. To act as a constant pressure for good.
When we stuck to our own, being us, we were a positive force and a constant irritant for the bad guys, the oppressors. Their subjects always had us to strive for, to seek change over time. When we cross that line and go into being, no two ways about it, the oppressor, the invader, we throw out all our positives, what we represent and descend into evil and are stuck trying to excuse and defend the killing and destroying we do. This is why winning is essential and losing or even a draw is fatal. This is to Dubby's eternal discredit; if you're going to do the damn thing, DO IT. We can argue we KNOW our motives are pure and for good and maybe they are but the results of the last 14 years are ALL negative. The region is destabilized, oppression is on the rise, we've lost much in blood and treasure for little gain and those we've killed and destroyed do not have our dominance, our victory, with which they must accept and move on and develop our ideas of proper governance. They have only the death and the destruction AND more tyranny from their view.
So, what to do??? The argument is that we have to deal with things as they are and, sometimes that is proper. However, there is NO argument that we have NOT given that a full try and the results grow worse and worse. If we want freedom and liberty for them and are unwilling to impose it, we MUST leave and go back to being us, humbled for our failure and return to being the beacon BEFORE we lose anymore of it here at home. We can not get to our proper and good and right destination by continuing along this improper and bad and failing path.
We have lost our way.
Larry Gude
Strung Out
Here's the thing; If, and this is THE if, we are trying to PERSUADE others, our fellow countrymen and women, to our ideas and policies, then, we need all the sales people we can get when an issue or policy or idea is a tough sell. To that goal, a, say, Limbaugh, is ineffective and perhaps even counter productive to reach, say, another 5, 10 or 20% of our fellow citizens to help win the argument, win the day, win the election and implement the policy, pursue the idea. To THAT end, a Maher, who has appeal in places a devout conservative does not is useful not as a dupe or out of some insincere 'just make the sale' impulse BUT, and this is KEY, as a FELLOW traveler, a sharer, if in nothing else, in the idea that fundamentalist Islam is a SERIOUS threat to those who love individual liberty and freedom.
Maher, on THIS issue, is a fellow traveler and the fact that you, we, may not agree with him on every issue is not the point as there are no issues of disagreement that make teaming with him on that one a net negative. For instance, he is no fan of Christianity BUT that is a consistency on his part as he is even less a fan of Islam, THE primary goal. His dislike of Christianity is not as severe as that of Islam and, properly argued, he would say he is anti religion personally but is pro religious freedom AS LONG AS YOUR NOT imposing your beliefs on others and THAT is where his help on Islam matters. Islam is absolutely about submission and imposition and Christianity is not. He need not be helping to bear all burdens in order to help on one. Just so long as he is not making the burden worse in one area while not helping much in another. Who he is, his appeal is, to me, GREAT help for those in favor of individual liberty and freedom.
Some say the enemy of my enemy is my friend and I HATE that. Maher is NOT the enemy of Christians. He's just not a friend. He IS an enemy of fundamentalist Islam and THAT matters.
PsyOps
Pixelated
Here's the thing; If, and this is THE if, we are trying to PERSUADE others, our fellow countrymen and women, to our ideas and policies, then, we need all the sales people we can get when an issue or policy or idea is a tough sell. To that goal, a, say, Limbaugh, is ineffective and perhaps even counter productive to reach, say, another 5, 10 or 20% of our fellow citizens to help win the argument, win the day, win the election and implement the policy, pursue the idea. To THAT end, a Maher, who has appeal in places a devout conservative does not is useful not as a dupe or out of some insincere 'just make the sale' impulse BUT, and this is KEY, as a FELLOW traveler, a sharer, if in nothing else, in the idea that fundamentalist Islam is a SERIOUS threat to those who love individual liberty and freedom.
Maher, on THIS issue, is a fellow traveler and the fact that you, we, may not agree with him on every issue is not the point as there are no issues of disagreement that make teaming with him on that one a net negative. For instance, he is no fan of Christianity BUT that is a consistency on his part as he is even less a fan of Islam, THE primary goal. His dislike of Christianity is not as severe as that of Islam and, properly argued, he would say he is anti religion personally but is pro religious freedom AS LONG AS YOUR NOT imposing your beliefs on others and THAT is where his help on Islam matters. Islam is absolutely about submission and imposition and Christianity is not. He need not be helping to bear all burdens in order to help on one. Just so long as he is not making the burden worse in one area while not helping much in another. Who he is, his appeal is, to me, GREAT help for those in favor of individual liberty and freedom.
Some say the enemy of my enemy is my friend and I HATE that. Maher is NOT the enemy of Christians. He's just not a friend. He IS an enemy of fundamentalist Islam and THAT matters.
Wait a minute though… I think folks have their day when the timing is right. Limbaugh sprung up during Clinton and his attempts to expand government and push Hillary’s healthcare nonsense, and the people listened. Limbaugh is often credited with being the key voice in the GOP takeover of congress. After 40+ years of democrat rule, had the right message to effect major change. Love him or hate him, he was hugely influential in the mid 90s. He ‘made the sale’. He may not be all that effective today explicitly (but not solely) because of how the media landscape has changed; thus giving birth to people like Maher. He will one day become ineffective like all the other mouthpieces out there.
I don’t need Maher as a guide for me on these matters. His legitimacy survives off of 'shock value'. What little I’ve seen of him, he reminds me of so many of our politicians that show contempt for people that disagree with him. I don’t get that he is some enemy of Christianity; but he holds people that believe in a god with contempt. And, he appeals mostly to a younger, more uninformed audience – coincidentally LIBERALS! He’s cool because he got a gig on HBO where he can throw the F bomb every so often and wow the audience. Folks just love people like this for some reason. This sort of low-level approach only reveals his juvenile nature, and doesn’t appeal to me.
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