Coat Color Studies Aid Health Research, Breeding C

[happyappygirl]

I've seen a couple of your products, not at your farm. although very quiet, he is very small boned, very small heart-girth for his height, ewe necked, rump-high, unfortunate little thing. with huge white around his eyes, he just isn't too pretty, appy colored, not gaited. the other one is nicer in color, a dark bay, but same conformation problems. she's a bit fiesty. of course i shouldn't judge your whole breeding program on those two.

oh so now I've gone from backyard (I'd prolly call it barn yard) breeding Registered, certified to breed (which is how they prove themselves) Rockies to Crappy Aps.

It's MAGIC!

C'Mon people is this the best ya got?

 

[Phyxius]

oh so now I've gone from backyard (I'd prolly call it barn yard) breeding Registered, certified to breed (which is how they prove themselves) Rockies to Crappy Aps.

It's MAGIC!

C'Mon people is this the best ya got?

Okay then, prove them wrong. Show us your quality horses and educate us using video and photo of other rockies to compare them too. Show us what makes them better than any other rocky out there. Because when I look at the rocky website I see horses that look very different from the ones you raise. If Devine is wrong....prove it. Put your money where your mouth is.

 

[happyappygirl]

Okay then, prove them wrong. Show us your quality horses and educate us using video and photo of other rockies to compare them too. Show us what makes them better than any other rocky out there. Because when I look at the rocky website I see horses that look very different from the ones you raise. If Devine is wrong....prove it. Put your money where your mouth is.

The horses prove that they are worthy of being bred when they are certified to breed at or beyond age 2, and do so on their own merits, not compared to other horses.

That evaluation process includes type (conformation), temperament and gaiting ability. No other breed (including your color 'breed') has these requirements put on it before offspring are even registerable at all. My entire adult brood mare band is Registered (double registered in fact), certified to breed (also in two registries), AND color typed by DNA. Every foal i have is color typed by DNA, registered or is/will be eligible for registration and certification in one or both registries.

There is no need to go above and beyond that considering YOUR breed has no limitations aside from parentage DNA typing.

Proof in my double registered, double certified stallion has already been exhibited by, as I've clearly stated before, being chosen to sire a confirmed 2010 foal for the owner of a mare which is co-owned with the person who wrote THE book on the breed. Oh and did i mention he's ONLY a coming 4 year old horse?

BTW...when exactly have you seen my brood mare band, foals or stallion? You speak with such authority on them surely you must have visited me and viewed the paperwork and seen them under saddle. And when did i say they were better than any other Rocky out there?? help me out here.

Oh and lest we forget, I am an examiner for one of those registries. And before you even go there, I can NOT certify my own horses.

Oh and regarding the website, several of mine are in fact ON the website on both member photos pages, and have been IN the magazine, on the back cover in fact, NONE of which i had to pay for, and was pleasantly surprised at when it happened - I didn't ask for either thing. TYVM.

Anything further?

 

[Bigpops92]

Let me jump in again REAL quick...where are you located? Where do you show?

I did not know there was such a fine breeding establishment in the area.

It is just amazing what we learn on these forums.

 

[BlissfulJumper]

Maybe you should host an open house so we all can some see this fine breeding program

 

[fredsaid2]

I think I see where Phy is going. A typical conformation shot is one in profile, the horse standing squarely on level ground, groomed and tidy, with the photo tight enough to show the entire side view. This way you can evaluate the horse via a clear photo. I believe she is asking you to provide confo shots of your Rocky's to be compared to confo shots of other Rocky's with you pointing out where your horses excel and what you are breeding to improve.

 

[Duckz]

The horses prove that they are worthy of being bred when they are certified to breed at or beyond age 2, and do so on their own merits, not compared to other horses.

I'm a little confused. Isn't there a breed standard (the "ideal" Rocky, or App, or QH, etc) that the breed registries are looking for? Therefore, wouldn't all of your Rockies be certified with the idea that they possess characteristics idealized in the breed? Not saying they are being judged against any other individual Rocky, but rather the "ideal Rocky" that the registry has in mind. What's the point of a breed registry if every horse is being judged against itself and only itself?

Or is this something entirely different than simply being certified to breed?

Sorry, I really am quite ignorant when it comes to how all the different breeds are registered, judged, certified to breed, etc.

Btw, good idea for an open house! Sounds like there's a lot of confusion about your breeding program and Rockies in general.

 

[happyappygirl]

I'm a little confused. Isn't there a breed standard (the "ideal" Rocky, or App, or QH, etc) that the breed registries are looking for? Therefore, wouldn't all of your Rockies be certified with the idea that they possess characteristics idealized in the breed? Not saying they are being judged against any other individual Rocky, but rather the "ideal Rocky" that the registry has in mind. What's the point of a breed registry if every horse is being judged against itself and only itself?

Or is this something entirely different than simply being certified to breed?

Sorry, I really am quite ignorant when it comes to how all the different breeds are registered, judged, certified to breed, etc.

Btw, good idea for an open house! Sounds like there's a lot of confusion about your breeding program and Rockies in general.

Registry Handbook

Have at it. It's all on the breed website. Registration and certification are 2 separate things. A horse must be from 2 registered/certified parents to be fully registerable as capable of producing fully registerable offspring.

If, according to THREE certified RMHA examiners (who are trained then tested in their knowledge of what the breed is suppose to be), a horse doesn't physically look like a Rocky (height and overall conformation), doesn't move like a Rocky (correct 4 beat, evenly timed gait not created by special shoes or training methods) or if it doesn't Act like a Rocky (quiet temperament) then it doesn't pass the certification to breed process and doesn't receive that gold seal of approval for the paperwork, nor can it's offspring be registered. Period.

My breeding stock all conform to breed standards and expectations as proven by the gold seals on their paperwork, and the offspring/young stock I've chosen to by either in utero or on the ground will do the same, as soon as they are eligible. They all come from foundation stock for the breed, with beautiful pedigrees.

No other breed is as stringent on registration and certification for breeding requirements as the RMH. NOT ONE SINGLE BREED. The registration and subsequent certification of breeding stock tells the story, so I don't have too.

 

[Robin]

Registry Handbook

Have at it. It's all on the breed website.

If, according to THREE certified RMHA examiners (who are trained then tested in their knowledge of what the breed is suppose to be), a horse doesn't physically look like a Rocky (height and overall conformation), doesn't move like a Rocky (correct 4 beat gait) or if it doesn't Act like a Rocky (quiet temperament) it doesn't pass the certification to breed process and doesn't receive that gold seal of approval for the paperwork. Period.

My breeding stock all conform to breed standards and expectations as proven by the gold seals on their paperwork, and the offspring/young stock I've chosen to by either in utero or on the ground will do the same, as soon as they are eligible. They all come from foundation stock for the breed, with beautiful pedigrees.

No other breed is as stringent on registration and certification for breeding requirements as the RMH. NOT ONE SINGLE BREED. The registration and subsequent certification of breeding stock tells the story, so I don't have too.

which registry examiner are you? I know there are a couple different ones with the Mountain horses.

 

[happyappygirl]

which registry examiner are you? I know there are a couple different ones with the Mountain horses.

Do you really care....or are you looking for another way to try to degrade me? Nebber mind, I really don't care.

KMSHA Examiners Directory
The KMSHA.

I could go into the different registries and what they mean as well, but I don't see the point.

The RMHA hasn't had an examiners clinic in a number of years. As soon as they do, I'll fly out and take the test.

 

[Robin]

KMSHA Examiners Directory
The KMSHA.

The RMHA hasn't had an examiners clinic in a number of years. As soon as they do, I'll fly out and take the test.

I know that there was a big uproar a few years back and some opened their own registry so it was easier to register their horses. I thick SHOC started about the same time 1999ish? The gaited registries and warmblood registries were getting stiffer on the requirements on standards and what they were looking for. Is this where The KMSHA was founded?

 

[Robin]

Do you really care....or are you looking for another way to try to degrade me? Nebber mind, I really don't care.

KMSHA Examiners Directory
The KMSHA.

I could go into the different registries and what they mean as well, but I don't see the point.

The RMHA hasn't had an examiners clinic in a number of years. As soon as they do, I'll fly out and take the test.

I am asking questions. You seem to be firing back with all the nasties. I would say you are degrading yourself. I am just trying to read on and learn.

 

[happyappygirl]

I know that there was a big uproar a few years back and some opened their own registry so it was easier to register their horses. I thick SHOC started about the same time 1999ish? The gaited registries and warmblood registries were getting stiffer on the requirements on standards and what they were looking for. Is this where The KMSHA was founded?

Robin, I am in defense mode because every single comment that has been fired at me is as though I do something horrible, or underhanded or somehow detrimental. It's just plain silly that pack mentality kicks in with you people. For what?? We are all adults who share a common interest...the pure enjoyment of horses.

Oh wait, is this your "real" question:
"...and some opened their own registry so it was easier to register their horses" Which, based on my answer, could somehow lessen the fact that I am a KMSHA and not yet an RMHA examiner? or...are you really curious? Hmm...anyway, just to prove a point...IF you're really interested in the history of the clubs....

The RMHA was the primary registry, and the KMSHA was opened after it's inception because horses under 14.2h as adults (over age 4) even though DNA parentage typed as pure and RMHA registered, simply can't be certified to breed and produce RMHA registered offspring, so the need to form another registry was born, which allows these pure bred Rockies the opportunity to be bred as KMSHA. If you read both the KMSHA and RMHA rules of registration, you'll see this is true.

The original RMHA sires were pretty much all under 15h, and as a rule, sired many small offspring of quality.

Horses not meeting RMHA height requirements at maturity can be registered KMSHA and certified to breed as full KMSHA. Other than the height difference the 2 registries were identicle until this year, when the KMSHA acknowledged the need to open the books to allow outcrossed gaited mares into the registry for breeding who meet certification guidelines which are exactly the same except for the height rule. Again, if you read both the KMSHA and RMHA rules of registration, you'll see this is also true.

FWIW this information is not what is told on the KMSHA website, but it is the true reason for the second registry to have been born. The founder of the KMSHA was a founding member for the RMHA and diverged from that club for the reasons I stated above. Many people sided with the president and owner for KMSHA, are dedicated to the KMSHA and do not register their horses RMHA as a result.

I double register my horses and do not lean to one side or the other. I also enjoy going to both shows (although KMSHA shows tend to be more laid back and "fun"). YES i do indeed go to shows. I just choose not to show my horses. Hubby would kill me after 30 years of dragging him around to dog shows. You know him Robin, ask him yourself if he'll let me show the horses. He HATED being the chauffer. He much prefers what we do with them as camping and trail companions. So that's what we do. He drives the tractor that feeds them.

 

[Robin]

Robin, I am in defense mode because every single comment that has been fired at me is as though I do something horrible, or underhanded or somehow detrimental. It's just plain silly that pack mentality kicks in with you people. For what?? We are all adults who share a common interest...the pure enjoyment of horses.

Oh wait, is this your "real" question:
"...and some opened their own registry so it was easier to register their horses" Which, based on my answer, could somehow lessen the fact that I am a KMSHA and not yet an RMHA examiner? or...are you really curious? Hmm...anyway, just to prove a point...IF you're really interested in the history of the clubs....

The RMHA was the primary registry, and the KMSHA was opened after it's inception because horses under 14.2h as adults (over age 4) even though DNA parentage typed as pure and RMHA registered, simply can't be certified to breed and produce RMHA registered offspring, so the need to form another registry was born, which allows these pure bred Rockies the opportunity to be bred as KMSHA. If you read both the KMSHA and RMHA rules of registration, you'll see this is true.

The original RMHA sires were pretty much all under 15h, and as a rule, sired many small offspring of quality.

Horses not meeting RMHA height requirements at maturity can be registered KMSHA and certified to breed as full KMSHA. Other than the height difference the 2 registries were identicle until this year, when the KMSHA acknowledged the need to open the books to allow outcrossed gaited mares into the registry for breeding who meet certification guidelines which are exactly the same except for the height rule. Again, if you read both the KMSHA and RMHA rules of registration, you'll see this is also true.

FWIW this information is not what is told on the KMSHA website, but it is the true reason for the second registry to have been born. The founder of the KMSHA was a founding member for the RMHA and diverged from that club for the reasons I stated above. Many people sided with the president and owner for KMSHA, are dedicated to the KMSHA and do not register their horses RMHA as a result.

I double register my horses and do not lean to one side or the other. I also enjoy going to both shows (although KMSHA shows tend to be more laid back and "fun"). YES i do indeed go to shows. I just choose not to show my horses. Hubby would kill me after 30 years of dragging him around to dog shows. You know him Robin, ask him yourself if he'll let me show the horses. He HATED being the chauffer. He much prefers what we do with them as camping and trail companions. So that's what we do. He drives the tractor that feeds them.

Very interesting, but I believe it spilit into more that just that registry

{AGMHA}American Gaited Mountain Horse Assoc and {UMHA}United Mountain Horse Assoc.
These might be another registry that you can cross register to. Some Of the horses that Had white markings on the body were able to register in AGMHA? I am sorry I did not read through all of this but read about 8 or so yrs ago when I had a gaited spotted pony stud. I personally was looking into alot of the different registries. Shoc was another one. Some did not require parentage or DNA testing at the time Just pictures and video.

 

[Robin]

Wasn't the height rule made to keep the mounts smaller. I know the Saddlebred and TWH their might be others got out of hand with 16 16.3 hand horses. I remember in some of the earlier books They were wanting a certain height for the ground mounting when the horse parked out. I understand taller gentlemen and ladies required a taller mount but the breeding got out of hand and they set the height rule to certain registries.

 

[Robin]

{KNGHA} Kentucky Natural Gaited Horse Assoc.

 

[happyappygirl]

Very interesting, but I believe it spilit into more that just that registry
{AGMHA}American Gaited Mountain Horse Assoc and {UMHA}United Mountain Horse Assoc.

There are virtually hundreds of gaited horse registries. A horse with full registration with the RMHA (Rocky MHA), MPHA (Mountain Pleasure Horse Assocation) or the KNGHA (KY Natural Gaited Horse Assoc.) can be grandfathered in as full KMSHA, but still has to be certified to have registered offspring. RMHA books are closed. My adult breeding stock are all double registered/certified RMHA/KMSHA.

To be eligible for a gaited horse registry the horse must exhibit any smooth gait which can be the running walk or fox trot in addition to the lateral 4 beat gaits ie: the Rack, Saddle Rack or the acceptable but not preferred stepping (broken) pace which are required for my breed.

I own and am familiar with horses registered with the RMHA, KMSHA and SMHA (Spotted Mountain Horse Association - which is affiliated with the KMSHA and allows cross registration based on spotting) which are all related to the same true DNA parentage certified Mountain Horse breed - and not simply gaited horse registries like the others are.

The running walk/ft are NOT certifiable gaits for Rockies one is not evenly timed and one is diagonal.

 

[happyappygirl]

Wasn't the height rule made to keep the mounts smaller. I know the Saddlebred and TWH their might be others got out of hand with 16 16.3 hand horses. I remember in some of the earlier books They were wanting a certain height for the ground mounting when the horse parked out. I understand taller gentlemen and ladies required a taller mount but the breeding got out of hand and they set the height rule to certain registries.

No it wasn't intended to keep them small, but the 14.2h rule was intended to keep "ponies" from being certified to breed as "horses".

There is a height minimum of 14.2h and a max of 16h in the breed standard, those who are over or under it are simply not eligible for certification. I'm not sure why the max height was set unless it had something to do with being too "drafty" or to large and cumbersome to do what they were intended? I can ask some old timers for a reason, if you're really interested. http://www.rmhorse.com/images/files/Registry Handbook/RulesofRegistryUpdated01152009.pdf

16h is way to big for me anyway so it doesn't bother me, although most of my breeding stock tends towards the larger end because I want my adult horses to be between 14.3h and 15.3h at maturity to accomodate more than just average women sized riders. The breed as a whole, needs those sized horses in it.

The smaller horses for the most part rack/saddle rack naturally right from the beginning. The larger horses, have walker or saddle bred influence infused way back, to bring height and substance up, and tend towards trotty or pacey, and require conditioning to gait. When out of condition, they can be inconsistent, so it's important to know what gait breeding stock tends towards and breed them accordingly to bring back the natural, evenly timed 4 beat gait.

 

[happyappygirl]

Very interesting, but I believe it spilit into more that just that registry {AGMHA}American Gaited Mountain Horse Assoc and {UMHA}United Mountain Horse Assoc.
These might be another registry that you can cross register to. Some Of the horses that Had white markings on the body were able to register in AGMHA? I am sorry I did not read through all of this but read about 8 or so yrs ago when I had a gaited spotted pony stud. I personally was looking into alot of the different registries. Shoc was another one. Some did not require parentage or DNA testing at the time Just pictures and video.

Again, I'm not current on the other gaited registry rules and won't speak to them.

The SMHA (Spotted Mountain Horse Association) was founded at approximately the same time as the KMSHA and is it's affiliate organization. It gives those who have too much white to be registered with RMHA/KMSHA an official registry. The breed standard for conformation, temperament and gait in the SMHA are exactly the same as for RMHA/KMSHA, they just have spots which are the result of the Sabino gene, which many RMHA/KMSHA horses carry, and when doubled up on creates too much white on an otherwise registerable/certifiable horse.

Solids are eligible for SMHA if both parents are registered SMHA but a horse can't be both RMHA/KMSHA and SMHA because the RMHA/KMSHA have rules specifying how much white then can have and where it is on the body.

I certify for SMHA as well as KMSHA. The SMHA books are open to grade mares who also meet requirements.

 

[Robin]

Again, I'm not current on the other gaited registry rules and won't speak to them.

The SMHA (Spotted Mountain Horse Association) was founded at approximately the same time as the KMSHA and is it's affiliate organization. It gives those who have too much white to be registered with RMHA/KMSHA an official registry. The breed standard for conformation, temperament and gait in the SMHA are exactly the same as for RMHA/KMSHA, they just have spots which are the result of the Sabino gene, which many RMHA/KMSHA horses carry, and when doubled up on creates too much white on an otherwise registerable/certifiable horse.

Solids are eligible for SMHA if both parents are registered SMHA but a horse can't be both RMHA/KMSHA and SMHA because the RMHA/KMSHA have rules specifying how much white then can have and where it is on the body.

I certify for SMHA as well as KMSHA. The SMHA books are open to grade mares who also meet requirements.

I know when I had standardbreds that were retired from the track, I really enjoyed some of their really smooth gaits.

YouTube - Soulcrusher-Standardbred Speed Racking Singlefooter Stallion

this video is neat