Disrespect

[mamatutu]

Sometimes their "help" is enabling, so I understand the questioning aspect out of all of this

Yes, agree. But. It is hard for fams to not be enablers because of that thing called love, and, of course, commenting outsiders do not have that link, so to speak. Also, on a previous comment regarding tough love. Tough love is very tough, and people that have not experienced having to implement it, should not throw that term around in conversation.

 

[vraiblonde]

What good does it do to air that dirty laundry?

Because the family/enablers of the deceased aren't the only ones in pain. The ones who were wronged by the dead guy - whether through abuse or the guy robbed them or whatever - are in pain as well.

Once a person is gone, those failings cease to matter.

Not to the ones they hurt, it doesn't.

 

[inkah]

Tough love is the preeminent method in most treatment centers, so we know that it does make a difference. Or can, if the addict wants to get clean.

If they don't, there's nothing you can do except not enable it or be a party to it. That's what they teach you in Al-Anon - the addict must own their behavior and you must not enable them or let them make it your fault. Don't fight their battles for them, don't give them money, don't support their addiction, make them work for their own life and own it.

Really? Which treatment centers?

Do treatment centers make a difference? Have you ever had a loved one in treatment?

If it isn't the al-anon member's fault, why do you blame them?

And not to belabour the point, but defining a philosophy is not the same as describing what you would actually DO.

 

[kwillia]

ohhhhhh... I can answer! Pick me, Pick me!

Tough love does make a difference, sorry!

Problem is and I witnessed this first hand by going to meeting after meeting w/ my loved one. 75% of the people in rehab had zero family/friend support. You have to create a team of people to help someone out. A lot of tears, ultimatums, soul searching is involved in this process. It's not easy, trust me. It was probably one of the hardest years of my life and I wasn't the addict. By creating this "team", first it shows your loved one that they are important and loved and they will not be alone during this grueling process of reaching sobriety.

See. I see this as an example of tough love. You didn't just 'there there" her and 'pray or wish' her well. You mad a pact with her that dammit she needed to take the steps to get better and dammit if she would take the steps you would walk with her so as to offer support shouldering her up should she wobble back. The thing is you got lucky that as bad as you wanted her to get better she wanted it more than you. It doesn't work when it's the other way around.

 

[inkah]

Yes, agree. But. It is hard for fams to not be enablers because of that thing called love, and, of course, commenting outsiders do not have that link, so to speak. Also, on a previous comment regarding tough love. Tough love is very tough, and people that have not experienced having to implement it, should not throw that term around in conversation.

It is tough. Thus the term TOUGH love.

 

[kwillia]

Really? Which treatment centers?

Do treatment centers make a difference? Have you ever had a loved one in treatment?

If it isn't the al-anon member's fault, why do you blame them?

And not to belabour the point, but defining a philosophy is not the same as describing what you would actually DO.

My sister has worked in drug rehab for over a decade and her observation is that the success stories are rarely the one's where it is a parent or loved one making the call to get them in and then making the appointments.

 

[mamatutu]

Because the family/enablers of the deceased aren't the only ones in pain. The ones who were wronged by the dead guy - whether through abuse or the guy robbed them or whatever - are in pain as well.


Not to the ones they hurt, it doesn't.

Vrai, you are wise, and all that. But, one thing you don't get is the family will suffer much longer than any others that were wronged. A stolen object can be replaced, or the abuse ended when the person died. The random victims will heal, and the family never will. Sometimes, you act like the world is supposed to be perfect, in your terms. I know, however, that you are smarter than that.

 

[Hank]

See. I see this as an example of tough love. You didn't just 'there there" her and 'pray or wish' her well. You mad a pact with her that dammit she needed to take the steps to get better and dammit if she would take the steps you would walk with her so as to offer support shouldering her up should she wobble back. The thing is you got lucky that as bad as you wanted her to get better she wanted it more than you. It doesn't work when it's the other way around.

After going through that, I can honestly say that one can not go through the process alone. Damn near impossible, especially involving opiates, which is what we were dealing with. I will repeat, one can not go through the process alone!

 

[inkah]

ohhhhhh... I can answer! Pick me, Pick me!

Tough love does make a difference, sorry!

Problem is and I witnessed this first hand by going to meeting after meeting w/ my loved one. 75% of the people in rehab had zero family/friend support. You have to create a team...reaching sobriety.

Why are you sorry?

You are incredibly fortunate to have had a team. I did it (tough love), but without a team. For every time I said no, there were half a dozen or more people determined to endanger my addict's life (and the rest of us) with an enabling gesture.

How long has your loved one been sober?

 

[vraiblonde]

Do treatment centers make a difference? Have you ever had a loved one in treatment?

My mother is not only a former alcoholic, but she is a retired addiction counselor and I grew up in the AA meeting halls when I wasn't cruising the CDU. My HS best friend's younger sister, who was like a sister to me because I lived with her family for a time, became a drug addict and got clean through treatment. So yes, I know a little something about this from first- and secondhand experience.

 

[Dakota]

I'm glad I have seen a side of life most will never see in their lifetime. In some instances, sure, the family did everything they could to enable their behavior... but in others, the family showed tough love and still ended up with a dead child.... and then you read names in the headlines and never hear the horrible and unimaginable circumstances they were dealt with growing up...

And just as an example, think of how you might have turned out if you witnessed your step-father kill your mother... or how you might have turned out if you were pimped out for money to support a drug habit of the parent. Or what if you were always left at home to care for your younger siblings and had no clue what the hell you were doing - maybe even left without a can opener (a lawyer I know was put in foster care after he stabbed himself in his leg trying to open a can of beans for him and his siblings while his mother was on a 4-5 day drug binge)

Now some people can be raised in the worst of circumstances and have a steady persistence to become something better and that's great that they were able to have some thread of self-esteem left to work towards something better. And some people were raised in a very loving house and still turned to drugs and crimes to support their habit. But if I had to put my nickles and dimes into a method, I would choose mental health treatment. People don't turn to drugs because everything was functioning well upstairs so until they deal with that... they will never be able to control their drug addiction, JMO.

And trust me... I could go on and on on this topic but won't 'cuz I know there are no easy answers.

 

[acommondisaster]

Because the family/enablers of the deceased aren't the only ones in pain. The ones who were wronged by the dead guy - whether through abuse or the guy robbed them or whatever - are in pain as well.


Not to the ones they hurt, it doesn't.

Vrai, what good does it do to hurt or punish the family left behind? What does it change? It doesn't lessen the deed, and it can't be undone no matter how much you try to make the surviving family hurt.

How does causing hurt make it better?

 

[vraiblonde]

For every time I said no, there were half a dozen or more people determined to endanger my addict's life (and the rest of us) with an enabling gesture.

Grrrr..... That must have been crazy making for you.

 

[vraiblonde]

Vrai, what good does it do to hurt or punish the family left behind? What does it change? It doesn't lessen the deed, and it can't be undone no matter how much you try to make the surviving family hurt.

How does causing hurt make it better?

That's not the way they - and most people in pain - see it unless they've had some really good counseling. Try being an adult who was repeatedly raped by the deceased as a child, then see this outpouring of grief and keening over what a "good person" he was. Especially if it were by people who knew of the abuse and did nothing to stop it. It would take a very strong person to not want to set that record straight.

 

[Hank]

Why are you sorry?

You are incredibly fortunate to have had a team. I did it (tough love), but without a team. For every time I said no, there were half a dozen or more people determined to endanger my addict's life (and the rest of us) with an enabling gesture.

How long has your loved one been sober?

Unfortunately, it almost becomes a babysitting gig. I can't imagine having gone through this without the help of other family members and even a couple of her true friends. I can't even tell you how many people I threatened to ensure her safety. I wasn't ####ing around, this was it. We weren't losing her to the low-lives and the drugs they were pushing. 4 years sober.

 

[mamatutu]

My mother is not only a former alcoholic, but she is a retired addiction counselor and I grew up in the AA meeting halls when I wasn't cruising the CDU. My HS best friend's younger sister, who was like a sister to me because I lived with her family for a time, became a drug addict and got clean through treatment. So yes, I know a little something about this from first- and secondhand experience.

Yes, but you have said on this forum (I think) that you have no relationship with your mother. Slap me, if I am wrong. You still have not established the "love" link to someone that you were involved with that was a criminal; whether it be drugs, bank robbery, dui, check fraud, etc., and that has died because of their behavior, or been linked to it after their death. My only point here that I am trying to make is, if you don't have the love connection, you truly do not understand. And, to answer some other comments, even if you practice tough love, it doesn't keep your heart from aching; especially, when that doesn't work, either. As always, just my opinion.

 

[Hank]

I'm glad I have seen a side of life most will never see in their lifetime. In some instances, sure, the family did everything they could to enable their behavior... but in others, the family showed tough love and still ended up with a dead child.... and then you read names in the headlines and never hear the horrible and unimaginable circumstances they were dealt with growing up...

You know what. Every time I read about a local young person overdosing and dying from drugs, I pick up the phone or send a text telling her how much I love her. That support system can never fold. There will always be that chance that they will be susceptible to going back to their old ways, again especially involving opiates.

 

[inkah]

Grrrr..... That must have been crazy making for you.

Quite literally. I am one tough cookie. But they broke me. And I battle my hatred and disgust for them and all enablers to this day.

But what I did...it didn't work either. Like hank said, I NEEDED a team.

(Ok where is the sobbing smilie?)

 

[kwillia]

Unfortunately, it almost becomes a babysitting gig. I can't imagine having going through this without the help of other family members and even a couple of her true friends. I can't even tell you how many people I threatened to ensure her safety. I wasn't ####ing around, this was it. We weren't losing her to the low-lives and the drugs they were pushing. 4 years sober.

Yeah, when the drug addict love of my sister's life finally agreed to rehab his "friends" convinced him to "one last party" the night before he was to begin his rehab. He OD'd... they decided to stare at him for a few hours to see if he'd snap out of it. When they finally called 911 it was too late. His family had to pulled the plug on his brain-dead ass two days later.

 

[vraiblonde]

Yes, but you have said on this forum (I think) that you have no relationship with your mother. Slap me, if I am wrong.

:slap:

It was only last year that I severed ties - and now we're back speaking again but on my terms this time.