Hawking

PsyOps

Pixelated
Who cares if it's arrogant or not? Sometimes that is the only way someone gets noticed. As free as our society is with information, we don't seem to appreciate the inherent value of it. Only in the last year have I really began noticing just how sheltered we are from dissenting opinions. I don't know about all of you but it really bothers me.

I don't particularly care. It is what it is. If you want to be arrogant in your belief that sitting in the minority with something like believing in God and your small numbers are right and our large numbers are wrong then that's certainly your business.

I suggest if you feel so sheltered in this country, then I suggest you go somewhere where you aren't so sheltered. I'm a little amazed that you'd claim this in the freest, most open country in the world. Perhaps you're sheltered because you chose to be.
 

hvp05

Methodically disorganized
Who cares if it's arrogant or not?
Apparently you do - at least when you perceive yourself being on the receiving end of said arrogance. (You would be well-advised to allow that to roll around in your head a while before proceeding with this discussion.)

Only in the last year have I really began noticing just how sheltered we are from dissenting opinions.
As Psy said, go take a trip to some neighboring nations. You might want to start with Cuba or China where there would be little chance of being 'harassed' by Christians/Christianity.

I also hope you realize that the very fact that you are posting on this forum indicates you are NOT sheltered. Unless you like maintaining that status because then you can play the victim.
 

Ignatiuslives

New Member
You apparently misunderstand what I mean.

If I were to go around and ask a random group of adults with atleast a highschool education, I could say confidently (only because I have performed the experiment before) that 8/10 of them could not tell me ANYTHING about a single political theory outside of our version of democracy. The extent that most people will learn "the other side of the story" is by watching CNN instead of Fox News for a day. Otherwise, it requires too much work and quite frankly, we are quite often far too busy to care.

I'm not saying the "sheltering" is forced upon us. "Out of sight, out of mind" is, I think, the primary cause. For the most part it doesn't really matter anyway; society functions regardless. A society functions much better when the citizens think their way is the only and/or best way to do everything. I'm not a "the grass is greener" type. I'm quite often cynical and always pragmatic.

As far as the arrogance matter goes, no, I don't. Arrogance is far too common among our silly species. In weighing an argument, I care not who acted this or that way, only who argued rationally and logically.
 

onel0126

Bead mumbler
Catholic scientist blog response to Hawking

That day began like any other workday: I arrived at work, turned on my desktop computer, and waited what seemed to be a thousand years for it to boot up. Thus I began my daily “ritual”: After checking my emails, I opened Internet Explorer so as to peruse the headlines on Yahoo’s homepage.

That’s when I saw it: “God did not create the universe, says Hawking”.

At first, I thought it was a joke. When I clicked the link, I fully expected to be taken to a page at The Onion. And that’s when I discovered—this is for real. “He finally did it,” I said to myself. “He just had to go ahead and blow it all, dagnabbit…!”

He, by the way, is Stephen Hawking, British theoretical physicist and cosmologist, the recently retired Lucasian Professor of Mathematics at the University of Cambridge (a post once held by the great Isaac Newton), and author of the internationally best-selling A Brief History of Time—the Most Celebrated Scientist In The World.

My “dagnabbit” (or some such term denoting extreme irritation caused by grave scandal) spontaneously came to mind because Hawking is also a lifetime member of the Pontifical Academy of Sciences, who famously once wrote, “If we discover a complete theory [of the universe], it would be the ultimate triumph of human reason—for then we should know the mind of God.”

(It would seem that for Hawking, science has proved that God is so unnecessary as not to exist at all. So much for “knowing the mind of God.”)

Okay. So what did Hawking actually say during this, his most recent “declaration”? His words, taken from his new book, The Grand Design—words which stir new passions in me every time I read them—are as follows: “Because there is a law such as gravity, the universe can and will create itself from nothing. Spontaneous creation is the reason there is something rather than nothing, why the universe exists, why we exist. It is not necessary to invoke God to light the blue touch paper and set the universe going.”

Now, I admit it: ever since I gave up my astronomy studies (at Cornell, no less) for philosophy (and eventually, theology), I’ve had a slight case of “scientist-envy.” After all, theoretical physicists can get away with saying things that—were I to say them—would get me at least puzzled stares and at most laughed out of the room! I mean, the most eminent cosmologist on Planet Earth has declared that our 13.7-year-old, goodness-knows-how-big universe just popped into existence (1) from nothing, (2) by itself, and (3) that this was all a result of gravity. Let’s look at Hawking’s statement point-by-point.

1. From Nothing: These words should be familiar to all well-catechized Catholics. The Latin term is ex nihilo. Indeed, Catholics do believe that the universe and everything in it came into existence out of nothingness (see the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Nos. 296-298), or in the words of Bible, “I beg you, child, to look at the heavens and the earth and see all that is in them; then you will know that God did not make them out of existing things…” (2 Maccabees 7: 28). So far, so good.

2. By Itself: Now here’s where things start getting ugly. There is an old saying in Latin—ex nihilo nihil fit—”nothing comes from nothing”. Now, here, we must be careful. As stated just above, Catholics clearly believe not only that something can come from nothing, but that everything comes from nothing; that’s what creatio ex nihilo (“creation out of nothing”) means. For Catholics, then, “nothing comes from nothing” must express something (pun intended!) more sublime—namely, that by itself, only nothing can come from nothingness. To speak somewhat more subtly—nothingness, in and of itself, does not provide sufficient reason for anything to exist.

3. Everything is a result of gravity: Nevertheless, Hawking does seem to think that nothingness can provide sufficient reason for the universe to exist, and for him, this reason is “gravity”. But here’s the rub: whatever gravity is (whether a force, a law of physics, a mathematical reality, etc.), it is definitely not nothing. In other words, whatever Hawking means by nothing (physical nothingness) he can’t mean what the Catholic Church means by nothing (metaphysical nothingness). For the Church, nothing doesn’t simply mean “no matter,” “no energy,” and “no forces”; nothing means nonexistence (once again, read 2 Maccabees 7: 28 above). Now, even Hawking would have to agree that gravity possesses some type of existence. So whatever Hawking means by nothing, he can’t mean nonexistence, since gravity exists. What, then, is Hawking saying? He seems to be saying that in the beginning, there was gravity (which, in Hawkingspeak, exists, but is also nothing), and from gravity, all things that now exist, exist. Does this make any sense to you? Yeah, I didn’t think so!

Hawking’s statement denying the existence of, and even need for, God, has caused something of an uproar among those who care about the (seemingly) competing claims of science and religion to explain everything. In Great Britain, the Anglican Archbishop of Canterbury, the Catholic Archbishop of Westminster, and prominent Jewish and Muslim leaders have condemned Hawking’s “scientific atheism” as yet another case of physics overstepping its bounds. After all, as implied above, physics is the science (or philosophy) of matter and its motion, energy, and forces. Metaphysics (“beyond physics”), on the other hand, is the philosophy (or science) of being and existence. So, as soon as one starts making declarations about existence, one crosses the line from physics into metaphysics. Given all this, it really makes no sense to apply the laws of physics—or the principles of mathematics—to questions of existence. In fact, from the perspective of genuine metaphysics, there is Being/Existence itself, and that which comes into existence or derives its existence from Being/Existence itself. The former is God, and the latter are the principles of mathematics, the laws of physics, and ultimately, the entire universe (including space-time and non-spatial/non-temporal reality). The point: God doesn’t “set the universe going,” as Hawking seems to think believers believe. Rather, God causes everything to be, including the mathematical principles and physical laws that “set the universe going.”

(Note: it makes no difference whether there are, in fact, many universes or even an infinite number of universes—all derive their being from God.)

What does all this demonstrate? Only that Stephen Hawking has no more disproved the existence of God than he has proved the existence of the extraterrestrial intelligent life forms that he so firmly believes in! (Talk about “blind faith”!)

A final thought: If you’ve been reading between the lines, you’ve realized that “proving” or “disproving” the existence of God is not like proving or disproving the existence of some thing. God, after all, simply IS. In other words, “proving the existence of God” is like proving the existence of Existence. I mean, once you realize that for any thing to exist/be, there must be EXISTENCE/BEING, you simultaneously realize that any discussion about God puts you in a whole new territory of thought (theology … ha!). In fact, if you start thinking (actually, praying) about this really hard, you might cross into deep spirituality#—and you’ll “see” why so many saints and mystics could say that “God is nothing,” because God is not “a” thing, because God IS … and since God IS, in him, we will live forever. “Therefore, since it is the Creator of the universe who shapes each man’s beginning, as he brings about the origin of everything, he, in his mercy, will give you back both breath and life…” (2 Maccabees 7: 23).
 

This_person

Well-Known Member
Okay. So what did Hawking actually say during this, his most recent “declaration”? His words, taken from his new book, The Grand Design—words which stir new passions in me every time I read them—are as follows: “Because there is a law such as gravity, the universe can and will create itself from nothing. Spontaneous creation is the reason there is something rather than nothing, why the universe exists, why we exist. It is not necessary to invoke God to light the blue touch paper and set the universe going.”
Given the knowledge that gravity, time, space, matter, universal laws, etc., did not exist before the universe did, how did it create itself from something that wasn't there?
 

PsyOps

Pixelated
Given the knowledge that gravity, time, space, matter, universal laws, etc., did not exist before the universe did, how did it create itself from something that wasn't there?

Gravity created it :ohwell:

The point that hit me pretty squarely is this quote provided in one’s post: “If we discover a complete theory [of the universe], it would be the ultimate triumph of human reason—for then we should know the mind of God.”

This answers the question of how Hawking can say “It is not necessary to invoke God to light the blue touch paper and set the Universe going.”

Now that Hawking knows the mind of God, God is no longer needed. But, do we get what he’s saying here? “A complete theory”. How could you know it’s complete? A theory is not absolute fact; it’s conjecture. How can you KNOW the mind of God if it’s only theory?

Really, the bizarre part about this “gravity” theory is, you can’t have gravity without mass. This is the old “chicken or the egg” paradox. Which came first, mass or gravity? Or perhaps they’re mutually dependent on each other. So how can gravity create something that is dependent on something else to exist?

Has Hawking really lost his mind?
 
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Ignatiuslives

New Member
Lawrence Krauss is releasing a book in sometime next year about spontaneous creation though from a different theory than Hawkings. Krauss has been talking about it for quite a few months now, he just hasn't gotten as much attention.
 

Zguy28

New Member
Gravity created it :ohwell:
And yet gravity is not causally prior to everything. What he is saying is that the universe has always existed. He's just saying it was so infinitesimally small that it didn't actually exist. He's playing with words.

Has Hawking really lost his mind?
I think so. He's a fool.
 

PsyOps

Pixelated
Have any of you read the book or are you basing your opinions on the matter from internet articles?

I'm using my own brain. Try to remember, everything Hawking lives by is in theory, not proven fact. They make it too easy to question them from a theological/spiritual POV. I don't spend a lot of time discrediting their theories, except to hypothetically use it to counter their argument to try to prove God doesn't exist. If they spent less time trying to prove God doesn't exist and more time solidifying their theories I'd give them more credibility. I don't think one disproves the other, and trying to do so only shows how closed your mind is.
 

Ignatiuslives

New Member
Ah, you're the type who'd call foul on evolution because it's called a theory. But again, I assume you haven't read the book. So you're asking if Hawking has lost his mind because of the critical thought you put into a headline? That doesn't sound like you are honestly concerned with evidence; whether or not there is any.
 

PsyOps

Pixelated
Ah, you're the type who'd call foul on evolution because it's called a theory. But again, I assume you haven't read the book. So you're asking if Hawking has lost his mind because of the critical thought you put into a headline? That doesn't sound like you are honestly concerned with evidence; whether or not there is any.

Evolution is a theory, right? :rolleyes:

I know though, only the enlightened are able to exercise critical thinking.

Look... It's one thing to say gravity is the glue that holds the universe together and that through it our universe moves and is molded; it's quite another to assert that this thing (gravity) proves that God doesn't exist. I don't need to read Hawking's book to get it. I don't subscribe to the thinking that science is to be used to disprove God. It's an ignorant waste of time. I do subscribe to the belief that science can explain our universe in great detail. But when it comes to theory... well it's no more provable than God. When non-believers pop in here and try to scientifically prove that God doesn't exist; that He is just a magical, mythical monster created in our weak little minds I have to counter with "prove to me black holes exist". In large part theoretical science can be argued as nothing more than fantastic math and phenomenal observances of objects far, far away… nothing more than a bunch of up myths dreamt up by a bunch of wild scientists. Crackpots the lot of them.
 

Ignatiuslives

New Member
Ok, if those guys are crackpots, what does that make you if you'll support an idea that has no means of proof?

I personally think everyone is a bit nutty.
 

PsyOps

Pixelated
The origin of life is a theory but all other aspects of evolution is not.

We do know for certain that all forms of life do evolve.

:buddies:

I'm not arguing for or against any theory. I'm simply saying that if you're going to use theoretical science to disprove the existence of God then I’m going to use that same argument against people that like to use theory as fact.

Today is election day. Why are you posting in here when you should be out their buying votes? Your life is on the line here buddy.

:shrug:
 

Starman3000m

New Member
Evolution is a theory, right? :rolleyes:

I know though, only the enlightened are able to exercise critical thinking.

Look... It's one thing to say gravity is the glue that holds the universe together and that through it our universe moves and is molded; it's quite another to assert that this thing (gravity) proves that God doesn't exist...

Even gravity has been designed to be in perfect order within this universe. The orbital balance of our own solar system and the diameter of each planet is proof of that. A few degrees difference in orbital distance would cause any one of the planets to crash into one another by pull of gravity and/or be pulled into the sun or be cast into the outer darkness of space. Same with the constellations throughout the expanse of the entire universe.

How ironic that upon such a great catacylsmic explosion called the "Big Bang" our solar system settled into a neat little orbital path around the sun - just at the right distance and even includes atmospheric pressure with oxygen that helps us keep our feet planted to the ground and gives us life sustaining air and water for the survival of mankind and the animal kingdom.

Gee, must have just been a coincidence that this all happened. :coffee:
 
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wxtornado

The Other White Meat
I'm not arguing for or against any theory. I'm simply saying that if you're going to use theoretical science to disprove the existence of God then I’m going to use that same argument against people that like to use theory as fact.
:shrug:

Here we go again. You must be joking. You do I am sure know that evolution; the gradual changing of organisms to adapt to changing environments, actuallly happens and can easily be demonstrated. Evolution is not only a theory, but is a fact. It began life as a theory in 1859 when Darwin published the Origin of Species.

Long since the massive weight of evidence has taken it from theory to fact - except maybe in backwoods environments. It is way too tedious to have to go further in explaining this to wilfully ignorant folks who prefer to adopt strange and archaic views of the world. So odd that these people predominantly reside in an advanced nation.

Take a look at the discoveries of a hundred and fifty years ago and pray you are not struck down for eating of the tree of knowledge.
 

wxtornado

The Other White Meat
How ironic that upon such a great catacylsmic explosion called the "Big Bang" our solar system settled into a neat little orbital path around the sun - just at the right distance and even includes atmospheric pressure with oxygen that helps us keep our feet planted to the ground and gives us life sustaining air and water for the survival of mankind and the animal kingdom.

Gee, must have just been a coincidence that this all happened. :coffee:

More lame creationists idiocies.....is that where we're headed here?

If you are going to spout an argument, have the decency to spout the correct argument.

The evolutionary process isn't based upon an "explosion" where the pieces fall down into fully formed complex models. Evolution describes a process wherein each step is built upon, keeping the previous step and discaridng intermediary steps that don't work.

Anti-evolutionists think evolution is like those old Popeye cartoons where he would punch a bear into the air, and it would come down as coats, hats, purses, boots, etc -- and be on coatracks and little tables and fall down in neat pairs, etc.

Ridiculous, and completely outside of what evolution states.
 
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