Narcan

[black dog]

Reviving a deceased heroin addict for the 4th or 5th time is not treatment. It is enabling.
:

So where else in the Health Field do we make changes​ for bad choices?
The overweight diabetic that's been on State Insurance for the last 25 years and is blind, has had 4 or 5 operations amputating a few toes and the both feet and then one leg?
Along with dozens of ambulance rides because he just can't stay away from the Pepsi's?
What's the cost of daily supply's to keep him alive because of his lifelong bad choices???

The Veteran in the VA hospital that has lung and heart problems from 60 years of smoking?
We seem not to have a problem taking care of them.. seems kinna hypocritical to me..

 

[inkah]

I get it and I tend to agree, but that's gonna be tough on LE and First responders that deal with this on a daily basis. Who will fill those jobs when they just sit by and watch folks die up to a few times a day in some areas..
The dead will be shortly littering the sidewalks up like cordwood.

"in some areas"
try HERE. People are od'ing a few times a day HERE. In St. Mary's County. Southern MD. The Director of the Lexington Park Rescue Squad was quoted in a recent article as saying that they are responding to OD calls up to 10 time A DAY. Here - LP area alone.

Pure insanity.

What in the hell is our local police drug enforcement division doing? Why is it so hard to find and put away the people that are literally killing off our communities? What exactly are the valid excuses?

And while my heart goes out to families - NARCAN producers are clearly benefiting from the increasing addictions...there has to be something to that...

 

[luvmygdaughters]

How far does that extend?

A kid who was driving too fast? Why waste time on someone who made the choice to drive 100mph?
A construction worker not wearing a harness falls off a roof. Why waste time on someone who made the choice not to tie off.
An alcoholic..

You get my drift.

Yes I do, but, there is a difference in someone having an accident and someone who is purposely pumping $hit into their veins for the umpteenth time. You and I have had this discussion before and again, we agree to disagree. I may sound heartless, sorry if I do. I am fortunate in the fact that this is a problem I've not had to deal with on a personal level. But listening to EMT's discuss the call to revive the same guy 3 times in one week and than hearing about some poor elderly person who has to choose between medication and food, makes me sick. To me, it should be a no brainer. If you overdose continually, you're on your own.

 

[inkah]

True, but, who is calling EMS for the overdoses? I wonder about this, if an addict is living at home with his/her family, wouldnt the family be taking the addict to rehab, counseling, hospital for treatment? I mean, I can only speak about what I would do if it was a family member. Not too mention, these people who overdose constantly, are putting other peoples lives at risk.

Family members call (but they too can get free NARCAN, and many with addicts do just that), friends, other addicts, enablers, innocent by-standers - lots of stories about finding people half dead in cars, so someday it might be you...

As for "wouldn't family members just take them to rehab" - I am guessing you have zero experience with this. It doesn't happen this way. Ever. There is no "just do" anything.

The ignorance surrounding addiction always astounds me. And conversations regarding "what to do" are nearly impossible because ultimately someone has to face themselves and their own bad decisions in order to really affect change. The free NARCAN question is just the tip of the ice burg on ways we as society are determined to enable addiction.

 

[black dog]

"in some areas"
try HERE. People are od'ing a few times a day HERE. In St. Mary's County. Southern MD. The Director of the Lexington Park Rescue Squad was quoted in a recent article as saying that they are responding to OD calls up to 10 time A DAY. Here - LP area alone.

Pure insanity.

What in the hell is our local police drug enforcement division doing? Why is it so hard to find and put away the people that are literally killing off our communities? What exactly are the valid excuses?

And while my heart goes out to families - NARCAN producers are clearly benefiting from the increasing addictions...there has to be something to that...

You should see the Midwest,, The drugs out here are overwhelming.
I've never checked the numbers, but when I need to hire a new employee, maybe 3 out of 20 that apply will actually show up to take the pee test and maybe one in fifty will pass.
We have county's that are now running in the red with all these drug related problems.

Oh and it's not like Lex Park is a new $hithole, it's been a $hithole for decades.
Maybe Countys should stop building and supplying subsidized housing and they will move.

 

[Gilligan]

You get my drift.

Yeah...a whole army of straw men are stranded in your drift.

 

[inkah]

Yes I do, but, there is a difference in someone having an accident and someone who is purposely pumping $hit into their veins for the umpteenth time. You and I have had this discussion before and again, we agree to disagree. I may sound heartless, sorry if I do. I am fortunate in the fact that this is a problem I've not had to deal with on a personal level. But listening to EMT's discuss the call to revive the same guy 3 times in one week and than hearing about some poor elderly person who has to choose between medication and food, makes me sick. To me, it should be a no brainer. If you overdose continually, you're on your own.

I think you are both right. You can't ask an EMT not to administer care.

There are other issues here though that seem more important:
Why has the cost of NARCAN increased so much?
Why are we making it free to the community where other life-saving things are not?
Why is it so hard for families to get help for their loved ones?
Why is enabling the norm?
Why is it so difficult to find and eliminate sources?
Who are the people making decisions about this issue?
Where is the community involvement?
Where is the loved one support (true support, not mere commiseration)?
How do we hold each other (the nons/the family, the community) accountable?
Is it even possible to help an addict? If so, what exactly does that look like?
How DO you make such life altering decisions in the midst of the torment of a loved one's addiction?
Are our local officials making bad decisions because of their own personal/family experiences and biases?
It just goes on and on...

 

[inkah]

You should see the Midwest,, The drugs out here are overwhelming.
I've never checked the numbers, but when I need to hire a new employee, maybe 3 out of 20 that apply will actually show up to take the pee test and maybe one in fifty will pass.
We have county's that are now running in the red with all these drug related problems.

Ya, I know. I guess my point is - it isn't valid for us to point to other places places and gasp. WE have this problem. 10 overdoses a day and that is just rising. And those are only responders stats - we also have parents, local community members, rehabs, hospitals, etc, etc who have NARCAN, are trained to administer and may very well be administering OD assistance in addition to responders.

And if we do look out to what is happening elsewhere, we can see what is coming...

WHY?

HOW?

Besides bitching at each other on a forum - what does a person actually do?

 

[inkah]

You should see the Midwest,, The drugs out here QUOTE]

wait - you don't even live here?

bah

 

[black dog]

You should see the Midwest,, The drugs out here QUOTE]

wait - you don't even live here?

bah

I was born in Bethesda, I lived there 45 yrs. Dotsonville,St Mary's for 10 of that.
My son lives in Leonardtown..
Is that good enough..

 

[glhs837]

Tag'em after the second dose, counsel them that there WILL NOT be a third dose. If I continue to crash my car, showing that I cannot drive, I will not be able to obtain insurance.

 

[Gilligan]

I was born in Bethesda, I lived there 45 yrs. Dotsonville,St Mary's for 10 of that.
My son lives in Leonardtown..
Is that good enough..

Much like awpitt is the official post content policeman....there are other positions too. ;-)

 

[Goldenhawk]

I'm really wrestling with this, because I can see two sides of the argument. On the one hand, I'm as cold-hearted about some things as you could be; it galls me to pay taxes for some of this nonsense.

However, on the other hand, I know personally that it's not just the street trash types that get into this trouble. A few years ago my very honorable, gentle, friendly, well-off mother had to take some opioid medication after surgery, and after a few months (long after we forgot about the original surgery) we found out she was "doctor shopping" to get additional prescriptions that her primary wouldn't give her. If she lived alone, instead of in a solid marriage with my dad and plenty of family support to help her recover, she could easily have fallen into hard drug abuse initially just to kill the pain but ultimately living that street life. And we all know that drug users relapse, so just escaping once isn't always the fix.

Statistics show that just ONE month of opioid drug use can lead to something like a 30% chance of abuse. Even a one day prescription can lead to a 6% chance they'll still be "using" a year later. Is there any wonder the rates are so high?
http://www.newsweek.com/cdc-opiate-addiction-572498

So how do you assign value to one life over another?

That "street trash" homeless lady you're willing to sacrifice is someone's mom, wife, grandmother, friend. That diabetic multiple amputatee that someone used as an example? He's a dad, grandfather, friend, deacon... how can you set a low value on his life?

No, we have to value life, no matter how painful the process, and find some way to deal with the ugly that goes along with it. With the odds of addiction so high for a relatively common drug, the chances YOU may need such help are far from zero. "Do unto others", and all that.

 

[vince77]

What's next, not calling an ambulance for injured crime suspects?

 

[vraiblonde]

EMT/Fire Departments/Police have a duty to citizens. They don't get to decide who lives or dies.

Well sure they do. Clearly the addict who ODed wanted to die, and EMT reanimated them. So who got to choose who lived?

That's right: EMT.

 

[Lilypad]

I've gone to 4 OD's in 6+ days, every single time a parent or loved one called 911-not another addict, they know what to do. Yes, I do assist in reviving or as Vrai says "reanimating" the addict.
Drug overdoses are the leading cause of death in folks 50 and under-surpassing trauma, auto accidents, etc. - most of y'all obviously aren't addicted or least want say while on here...

 

[black dog]

I've gone to 4 OD's in 6+ days, every single time a parent or loved one called 911-not another addict, they know what to do. Yes, I do assist in reviving or as Vrai says "reanimating" the addict.
Drug overdoses are the leading cause of death in folks 50 and under-surpassing trauma, auto accidents, etc. - most of y'all obviously aren't addicted or least want say while on here...

How would it affect you if the county / State no longer put narcan on the ambulance and you no longer had the tool to revive opioid overdose's..

 

[Lilypad]

How would it affect you if the county / State no longer put narcan on the ambulance and you no longer had the tool to revive opioid overdose's..

I would "load and go" - do basic EMS skills; CPR if they aren't breathing - apply oxygen, and monitor vitals. The 4 OD's I went to, no one knew what the friend/family member had used...it's not a pretty sight. All 4 patients were out of the ER in a couple of hours...2 were posting on FB; 1 OD'd again and survived and the other patient nothing...

 

[itsbob]

How do you determine the difference between an overdose that's going to kill them, and a high that you're getting ready to ruin?

I see all the facebook posts about parents overdosing.. or somebody behind the wheel overdosing.. but they don't look like they are overdosing to me.. they just look passed out and waiting for their high to pass before they do it again.

Serious question, how do you tell the difference? If they are breathing and their heart is still beating do you still give them Narcan??

WHO decided where are EMT's go? We have a limited number of rescue squads, and even more limited Emergency Care units. IF they get a call for an overdose, and a family man down in his front yard possibly having a heart attack who decides who gets the last ambulance available?? Will they divert an rescue squad on the way to an OD when a call like mentioned above comes in?? How about a family in a car accident?? Husband, wife and kids in need of emergency care??

 

[officeguy]

If we required a valid prescription for the opioid the person ODd on before giving Narcan, it would reduce the number of doses by a factor of 20. Eventually, it would also reduce the number of ODs as many of the addicts would die off and the rest would get the message. However, I don't see to a legal or ethical way of implementing such a change.