Pres. Bush's perspective

[SamSpade]

They also don't try to run for political office and force there beliefs on everyone.

I presume you are implying that George Bush "forces" his religious beliefs on you? How has he done that?

 

[UrbanPancake]

Comparing the Amish is like comparing Saddam to Bush... wait a minute there the same person, it's like comparing apples and bananas. Even though the Amish are religious they welcome homosexuals into there community. As a matter of fact I think the Amish should become politically active. I think they could make this country better.

 

[Tonio]

Is this your opinion?

If not, please provide sources for this statement as I've never heard him say this before.

Thanks!

When I said Bush seems to believe that he is God's representative on earth, that is my opinion of his mindset, based on the two statements I cited. As I said before, I don't really know what is in his mind.

The way I see it, this isn't a case of Bush having a strong religious faith. If it was nothing more than that, I would say more power to him.

But when he says that God chose him to be president and that God speaks through him, that sounds almost, but not quite, like he's claiming to be God. This might be a reach, but I was reminded a little of Col. Kurtz in "Apocalypse Now."

 

[UrbanPancake]

Why? I haven't seen whether or not you believe in God, or what kind of God you believe in, or if you have any faith in any part of the Bible. But it does say that he works all things for the good of those who love him and are called according to his purpose. Joseph in the Old Testament explains his years of misery after being sold by his brothers "You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done, the saving of many lives."

The Christian perspective is not that everything that happens is God's will, but that he will work with it for the good, for he will not interfere with our choices.

In the New Testament it says "Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves." and "Honor the Emperor" (written by Peter - so the 'emperor' was probably *Nero*). It does NOT mean the authority is righteous - only that it is there because God permitted it.

It's fair to say that things are as they are not because God *wills* it, but that God *permits* it, and uses it for the good. In such a case, should Kerry be elected, it can concur with the will of God.

The bible plays no part in politics. I believe the Bible is a good collection of stories, but that's it. A person wrote it, not God. I'm a skeptic. I'm not sure if he exist or not. But I don't like it when someone uses there religion to oppose policy that could benefit people like gays. That is how he enforces his religion on me.

 

[UrbanPancake]

When I said Bush seems to believe that he is God's representative on earth, that is my opinion of his mindset, based on the two statements I cited. As I said before, I don't really know what is in his mind.

The way I see it, this isn't a case of Bush having a strong religious faith. If it was nothing more than that, I would say more power to him.

But when he says that God chose him to be president and that God speaks through him, that sounds almost, but not quite, like he's claiming to be God. This might be a reach, but I was reminded a little of Col. Kurtz in "Apocalypse Now."

It reminds me of the ancient Egyptians when the Pharoh was considered a living God.

 

[ylexot]

Comparing the Amish is like comparing Saddam to Bush... wait a minute there the same person, it's like comparing apples and bananas. Even though the Amish are religious they welcome homosexuals into there community. As a matter of fact I think the Amish should become politically active. I think they could make this country better.

I have no clue what you think I said, but it's obvius that you need some help with reading comprehension. I was simply making the statement that having strong religious beliefs is not what makes someone dangerous. Then I gave an example of a large group of people with religious extremist views, but they are also very peaceful.

 

[PrchJrkr]

The bible plays no part in politics.

I wonder if the founding fathers of our country felt this way...

 

[Rapture Man]

So then should we shy away from penalizing say, murder, because since it's in the Ten Commandments, the idea that it's wrong might be construed as a Judeo-Christian notion?

 

[SamSpade]

But when he says that God chose him to be president and that God speaks through him, that sounds almost, but not quite, like he's claiming to be God.

IF he actually said this - *I'd* worry about him too. But I can't believe he'd say this.

Although my own faith is not very strong - I do believe from time to time, God has tried to make the right choice clear to me. In a story I'd rather not relate, he DEFINITELY chose a strange and unbelievable means of preventing me from ending my life.

Prayer would be without value if we did not think that God was able or willing to respond. How can you ask God for direction or wisdom, without believing he'll actually DO it? If you pray for rain --- carry an umbrella.

I see nothing inconsistent with how George Bush expresses himself with regards to his faith, and that of many I respect who are men of faith. They don't see themselves as saints in the classical sense; they don't see their perspective as certain - they rely on faith, and perhaps a little trepidation. Relying on faith is a lot like holding the hand of a trusted friend while blindfolded. Men who live with humilty and faith are men to be admired.

 

[Kyle]

I wonder if the founding fathers of our country felt this way...

You mean those religious nuts with guns? Don't think DURbanPancake likes them much.

 

[Tonio]

IF he actually said this - *I'd* worry about him too. But I can't believe he'd say this.

Bush had a meeting with several Amish families in Pennsylvania on July 9. In the July 16 issue of the Lancaster New Era, he was quoted as saying, "I trust God speaks through me. Without that, I couldn't do my job."</NITF>

Men who live with humilty and faith are men to be admired.

I agree, and that is part of my point. Bush's statements showed a lack of humility.

 

[2ndAmendment]

You scare me dude, and the fact that you are armed scares me even more!

I should scare you about as much as George Washington, Thomas Payne, and Nathan Hale would. They were deeply religious men that were armed.

What bothers me about you and those like you is that you are willing to give up what the founders, the men of WWI and WWII, fought and died for.

 

[2ndAmendment]

Bush had a meeting with several Amish families in Pennsylvania on July 9. In the July 16 issue of the Lancaster New Era, he was quoted as saying, "I trust God speaks through me. Without that, I couldn't do my job."

All true Christians believe that God speaks to them and through them. If he said this (link please), then he was just saying what the Bible says happens; that no authority is granted to men except by God.

 

[Tonio]

All true Christians believe that God speaks to them and through them. If he said this (link please), then he was just saying what the Bible says happens; that no authority is granted to men except by God.

http://lancasteronline.com/pages/news/local/4/7565 (you have to register to read the full article, but I read it all before it went into the archives).

 

[SamSpade]

Bush had a meeting with several Amish families in Pennsylvania on July 9. In the July 16 issue of the Lancaster New Era, he was quoted as saying, "I trust God speaks through me. Without that, I couldn't do my job."</NITF>

Well that is a little spooky, but having known many preachers and religious leaders, I get the concept of being used as a vessel for God while not claiming any status as a "prophet". I get the concept. That's not to say I haven't met weirdos who actually believe THEY speak FOR God, as in their words are inspired of him.

On the other hand, it IS a sign of humility to believe you are an empty vessel through which God works his will. Do you remember the story where Mary is informed she will conceive a child ""I am the Lord's servant; may it be to me as you have said." and as Isaiah replied to his call "Here am I, send me!". Humility is *yielding* to his will, not enacting your own will and calling it God's.

 

[Hessian]

The Incomplete education for Liberals

Government schools have put such stringent regulation about teaching "faith/religion" that they have sterilized the teaching of History.
Thus you end up with Urbanpancake & Jblasher in utter fear of a leader with a clear faith. Also...they have a skewed view of our foundings,...they never heard of the Great Awakening,..They don't see Lincoln's reasoning that a house divided against itself cannot stand (yes...from scripture). They miss all the analogies in art, debate, speech that rely on the audience having a knowledge of scripture.

In the end: a very incompetant education. "Greater love hath no man than to lay down his life for another." is utter foolishness to them. Why? They are the most important person in their limited universe.

Bush frightens them, politically active Christians frighten them, passing laws that preseve the 10 commandments frightens them, they are baffled by people who ask a Blessing before a meal, Pat Robertson is the same as Osama in their eyes...Do you see where this is going? A segment of the population that does not understand our origins, lives in fear and wonder but are willing to denounce, shout down, demand rights...but are incapable of an informed opinion.
Catholics and Protestants have for centuries pushed education, reading, writing, law, and yes..even science. Some of the most informed & well reasoned people have been devout Christians. Will this generation be the last to respect our Christian foundations & benefits?

 

[vraiblonde]

Bush had a meeting with several Amish families in Pennsylvania on July 9. In the July 16 issue of the Lancaster New Era, he was quoted as saying, "I trust God speaks through me. Without that, I couldn't do my job."

What's so scary about that? To me all that means is that Bush meditates and gets his head together and tries to do the right thing - or the Christian thing, if you will.

I don't believe "God" speaks to anyone. I believe that you come to your own conclusions and some people just choose to call it "God", rather than their own subconscious. It's really the same thing and not that big a deal, nor is it particularly frightening.

Maybe I'm wrong and he's really a nutball who really does have a Messiah complex. But, again, our system of government prevents him from getting too carried away, if that's the case.

 

[UrbanPancake]

Government schools have put such stringent regulation about teaching "faith/religion" that they have sterilized the teaching of History.
Thus you end up with Urbanpancake & Jblasher in utter fear of a leader with a clear faith. Also...they have a skewed view of our foundings,...they never heard of the Great Awakening,..They don't see Lincoln's reasoning that a house divided against itself cannot stand (yes...from scripture). They miss all the analogies in art, debate, speech that rely on the audience having a knowledge of scripture.

In the end: a very incompetant education. "Greater love hath no man than to lay down his life for another." is utter foolishness to them. Why? They are the most important person in their limited universe.

Bush frightens them, politically active Christians frighten them, passing laws that preseve the 10 commandments frightens them, they are baffled by people who ask a Blessing before a meal, Pat Robertson is the same as Osama in their eyes...Do you see where this is going? A segment of the population that does not understand our origins, lives in fear and wonder but are willing to denounce, shout down, demand rights...but are incapable of an informed opinion.
Catholics and Protestants have for centuries pushed education, reading, writing, law, and yes..even science. Some of the most informed & well reasoned people have been devout Christians. Will this generation be the last to respect our Christian foundations & benefits?

I do understand my origins. Thank You. I respect the right for people to believe in God. What I have a problem with is people using faith as a vehicle to enact policy that hurt American's, or take away there rights. We as a people have a right to worship whatever religion we should choice. The earliest religions believed in many Gods, and worshipped nature. If you look back through history Islam and Christianity are relatively new on the scene. This Christian and Islam movement is just another blink on the eye of history. Before you know it in the next 5000 years there will be another new religion on the scene. With that said I don't think policy's should be enacted because of the latest fad in religion. I doesn't seem right. Especially when everyone doesn't believe in the same thing.

 

[Tonio]

All true Christians believe that God speaks to them and through them. If he said this (link please), then he was just saying what the Bible says happens; that no authority is granted to men except by God.

That's not how I read the quote. I read it as him saying that God speaks ONLY through him. If someone believes he is chosen by God to do His will on earth, doesn't that mean he believes he doesn't have to be accountable to anyone on earth? What's to stop human arrogance from kicking in? Something like, "Hey buddy, when you criticize me, you criticize God. You're owned!"

 

[2ndAmendment]

Well that is a little spooky, but having known many preachers and religious leaders, I get the concept of being used as a vessel for God while not claiming any status as a "prophet".

Nothing wrong with prophets in this day or previous times. The test of a prophet is that his words will not be in conflict with the Word of God and they will come true. The consequence for claiming to be a prophet and speaking a prophetic utterance is that if the person that does that is ever wrong, that person is to be killed. No room for error here.

Prophesy is as valid as speaking in tongues, teaching, preaching, and all the other gifts of the Holy Spirit. The Bible says that in the last days these gifts will be even more manifest than at the time of the apostles.