Pres. Bush's perspective

[Tonio]

Will this generation be the last to respect our Christian foundations & benefits?

I've heard over and over that this country was founded on "Christian principles," whatever that means. Freedom and democracy aren't exclusively Christian. To me, the "Christian principles" premise implies that non-Christian Americans are committing de facto treason.

 

[ylexot]

That's not how I read the quote. I read it as him saying that God speaks ONLY through him.

That's definitely not the way I read that quote. Maybe you should read it again.

 

[Tonio]

That's definitely not the way I read that quote. Maybe you should read it again.

I'll clarify--I read the quote that way because I also read his frequent assertion that God chose him to be President.

 

[2ndAmendment]

That's not how I read the quote. I read it as him saying that God speaks ONLY through him. If someone believes he is chosen by God to do His will on earth, doesn't that mean he believes he doesn't have to be accountable to anyone on earth? What's to stop human arrogance from kicking in? Something like, "Hey buddy, when you criticize me, you criticize God. You're owned!"

I did not read the article. If the quote is correct, I do not get the same understanding as you. I believe that God speaks through many people. Leaders, ministers, even myself at times (no, I do not have a Messiah complex). I think President Bush was stating that same thing. Christians would understand that; non-believers would not since most non-believers think that scripture and faith in God is just nonsense.

 

[2ndAmendment]

I'll clarify--I read the quote that way because I also read his frequent assertion that God chose him to be President.

A Christian would believe that. I believe that God chose him. I believe that God chose Tony Blair, Mussolini, and Hitler too. They are chosen to be in power to serve the purposes of God.

 

[Tonio]

I believe that God chose him.

Nothing wrong with that. I just think it's arrogant for anyone to believe that about themselves. The Lord's Prayer says, "Thy will be done," not "My will be done."

 

[ylexot]

I found another source of the quote...

The part of the quote that I find to be very important in figuring out what he means is "I trust that...". To me, that means he's not hearing voices, he just has faith that he is being used by God.

 

[ylexot]

Nothing wrong with that. I just think it's arrogant for anyone to believe that about themselves. The Lord's Prayer says, "Thy will be done," not "My will be done."

If all things are God's will, how does that translate into "My will be done"?

In my searching, I also found this article regarding the Amish and voting:
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20041008/lf_afp/us_vote_religion_amish_041008150456
I found this quote to be related to the discussion at hand:

Norman Kauffman, whose family has run a fruit conserve and jelly business since 1911, refuses to vote and says he leaves God to decide elections.

 

[2ndAmendment]

Nothing wrong with that. I just think it's arrogant for anyone to believe that about themselves. The Lord's Prayer says, "Thy will be done," not "My will be done."

A Christian does not see that as arrogant. We see it as a person recognizing that they are called and under God's mercy and guidance.

 

[Larry Gude]

Wondering...

So, to answer your question, I would take a moderate catholic over a pious protestant who borders on the fundamentalistic any day.

That wasn't my question but it opens another can o' worms. What you state here is that you will take a man who professes a specific faith and is very untrue to it over a man who is consistent with his. Yes?

You scare me dude, and the fact that you are armed scares me even more!

and...

Yeah a religious zealot who is armed is very comforting, just ask anyone in Iraq!

You know, I've often mused that the left in our nation would would be four square behind the war on terror if we changed the word "Islamic" to "Christian" fundamentalists.

If the Taliban was run by Jerry Falwell and Iraq was run by Pat Robertson I think Farenheit 9/11 would have been of the "Why didn't we do this sooner?" vartiety as oppossed to the tedious, inane "Why are we there?" fake confusion and outrage.

Do you guys even remotely understand that people like 2a, Christian Americans alongside atheists, agnostics, Jews and Muslims, have fought and died for ALL of our rights since day one? Against Great Britain? Against slavery? Against Hitler? Against Stalin, the Cold War? Against Osama and Saddam?

It doesn't work that way in most other nations. You guys would be dead or in jail in most other lands instead of pretending to be scared of a Christian with a gun in the US.

What we're trying to help build in Afghanistan and Iraq is the same thing we have here, difference of opinion, people arguing over politics. You guys are terrificly wrong about Iraq simply because you hate Bush. If Kerry wins, he'll carry on for Bush not because he has to but because it's the right thing to do. What will you say then?

ONLY freedom based on rule of law will change the Middle East for the better and make it so once and for all. We are in the middle of doing the most liberal thing mankind can do for one another; liberation from tryanny.

Afghanistan suffered from religious tryanny. Iraq, a garden variety dictatorial nutball tyrant.

You oppose that.

Seriously, why?

 

[Hessian]

The Origins of Freedom..

If you think that Christianity had little to do with the blessings of Liberty and the roots of Republic-form of Democracy...you have not seriously looked at the subject.
You need to spend a weekend down at the Providence Foundation in Charlottesville Va.

What you will find is that many of the fundamentals of Democracy find order & origin in the Old Testament...clan voting, petitioning of the King, codifying law that EVERYBODY obeys, protection of rights to property etc etc can be found in the OT. The Reformation gave a new birth of Freedom for generations to allow for community voting, consent of the governed, freedom of worship, education for all classes of youth, and courts for determining civil law apart from religious orthodoxy.

SO...tell me, who has an undying belief in human rights? Who has denounced slavery for generations? Who has a legal system that other nations emulate? Who feels the need to send Doctors & engineers around the world to meet needs in less fortunate countries? Who supplies thousands of teachers to third world countries? Who freely sends millions of tons of food overseas to feed the hungry? who takes in thousands of neglected Children without regard to race or sex?

Which Faith would clearly support all of those questions and has done so for generations? Islam? Hinduism? Shintoism? Animism? Worship of "Mother Earth?"

Are you so Blind that you cannot see the Blessings of this country rests upon the same Biblical foundations that you "fear" might affect politics? How vain.

 

[Tonio]

What you will find is that many of the fundamentals of Democracy find order & origin in the Old Testament...clan voting, petitioning of the King, codifying law that EVERYBODY obeys, protection of rights to property etc etc can be found in the OT.

But there's something vital you're leaving out. One of the principles of democracy is that people are capable of governing themselves. Democracy places diginity and worth on the individual. (I think a lot of that came from the Enlightenment, although I'm not an expert on that era.)

That concept is foreign to the view of humankind expressed in the dogmas of Judaism, Christianity and Islam. (I'm not talking about individual faith and the individual's relationship with God, which is admirable. I'm talking about the institutions and rule sets of these religions.) Those dogmas are based in the idea of humans being wicked and evil. They teach that humans aren't capable of governing themselves, that the individual has no worth or dignity. That's not democracy, that's authoritarianism. It assumes that the government or priests or church elders know better than the average believer. From my reading of Genesis, it seemed like God felt like creating humankind was a colossal mistake.

 

[2ndAmendment]

But there's something vital you're leaving out. One of the principles of democracy is that people are capable of governing themselves. Democracy places diginity and worth on the individual. (I think a lot of that came from the Enlightenment, although I'm not an expert on that era.)

That concept is foreign to the view of humankind expressed in the dogmas of Judaism, Christianity and Islam. (I'm not talking about individual faith and the individual's relationship with God, which is admirable. I'm talking about the institutions and rule sets of these religions.) Those dogmas are based in the idea of humans being wicked and evil. They teach that humans aren't capable of governing themselves, that the individual has no worth or dignity. That's not democracy, that's authoritarianism. It assumes that the government or priests or church elders know better than the average believer. From my reading of Genesis, it seemed like God felt like creating humankind was a colossal mistake.

Boy do you have that wrong. So many people talk about what Christianity believes or what the Bible says and it is obvious to someone who reads the Bible that they have no idea what is actually taught. The whole of the Bible is the priceless value of people. Man (mankind) was created to fellowship with God. God came as Jesus to sacrifice Himself for all of mankind; a glorious, gracious, gift of salvation and all we have to do is accept and love God to receive it. That is not what I call "no worth or dignity". As has been said in other posts, God places those in authority over us for His purposes; these are humans in those positions. As far as Genesis is concerned, keep reading. God hates sin! Period. God warns people, through His word and through His prophets. He warns repeatedly. Sends calamity as a wake up call (9/11 anyone? Wake up!). And then He finally carries out His judgment.

The Age of Enlightenment was issued in by the Gutenberg printing press. It was no accident that the Bible was the first real book produced by the Gutenberg press. The Homer Iliad and Odyssey were around as were other handwritten books. Gutenberg chose the Bible as the first real book to print because it is the most important book of humankind. It is the owner's and maintenance manual of life. If you follow it's teachings, you will know God, follow His will, and your life will be better for it.

 

[Tonio]

2nd, when I read the Noah's Ark story and the Tower of Babel story, I don't get any sense of humanity's worth. Both stories imply to me that humans are worthless, rebellious children who should have never been born. I think that outweighs everything else.

You seem to be saying that only one view of the Bible is possible for anyone who reads it. I've never seen an example of that in real life. No one seems to agree on what the Bible means. Even believers who know the entire book by heart seem to have radically different opinions or interpretations. I see that even among different Bible-based churches, as opposed to the traditional denominations. It's all so confusing when different Christian institutions all claim to know exactly what God wants and exactly what the Bible means, and none of them seem to agree on what those are.

 

[UrbanPancake]

Pat Robertson says he warned Bush before U.S. troops invaded Iraq that the U.S. would sustain casualties but Bush responded, "Oh, no, we're not going to have any casualties." Robertson said in an interview with CNN on Tuesday night that God had told him the war would be messy and a disaster. When he met with Bush in Tenn. before the war Bush did not listen to his advice, Robertson said, and believed Saddam was an evil tyrannt who needed to be removed. "Bush was just sitting there, like, I'm on top of the world; and I warned him about this war Robertson said. Robertson told Bush to warn and prepare the American people for casualties in Iraq. Bush responded back "Oh, no, we're not going to have any casualties."

-Boy, Bush was wrong. If God spoke through Pat why didn't Bush listen? I thought Bush said that God speaks through him? Was God playing games with Bush? Is God contradicting himself?????

Do you think God flipflops?

 

[2ndAmendment]

2nd, when I read the Noah's Ark story and the Tower of Babel story, I don't get any sense of humanity's worth. Both stories imply to me that humans are worthless, rebellious children who should have never been born. I think that outweighs everything else.

You have missed the point of the scripture. God warned the people of Noah's time again and again. Noah and his family were the last people on earth that believed in and obeyed God. God told the people of Noah's time to repent or He was going to wipe them from the face of the earth. He followed through on His promise. The tower of Babel was man trying to make themselves god. God will not tolerate that. He confused their language and sent them away in confusion. These are examples for our learning; we are to live according to God's word and to chose to love Him and we are not to try to elevate ourselves to His position. We learn or we don't. We chose wisely or we don't. We have free will; we can reap the benefits or the destruction.

You seem to be saying that only one view of the Bible is possible for anyone who reads it. I've never seen an example of that in real life. No one seems to agree on what the Bible means. Even believers who know the entire book by heart seem to have radically different opinions or interpretations. I see that even among different Bible-based churches, as opposed to the traditional denominations. It's all so confusing when different Christian institutions all claim to know exactly what God wants and exactly what the Bible means, and none of them seem to agree on what those are.

Most traditional denominations are churches with a lower case c. The Christ is no longer in the church. They are in the business of church and not about God's business. Some "Bible" base churches are off the wall too. The King Jame's only folks and the snake handlers (not supposed to tempt God). They grasp one concept or verse and take it to extreme. I don't accept all that is said by the minister of the Church I go to. I think they have missed some places, but the Church and minister are far more founded than others I have attended. Don't accept my word or any organizations teaching blindly. Read and learn for yourself. Seek and you will find.

Here is an excerpt from Jesus' sermon on the mountain.

Matthew 7:7-23
7"Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.
9"Which of you, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? 11If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him! 12So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

The Narrow and Wide Gates

13"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

A Tree and Its Fruit

15"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

I suggest reading the whole sermon on the mount, Matthew 5:1 - 7:28. It is a summation of the teachings of the Bible in a very concise form. If everyone would live by these teachings, we would indeed have a world that was wonderful. The problem with human free will is selfishness and self importance; we put ourselves ahead of others. As we love and follow God, we tend to put others first. I fail miserably; I am just a sinner forgiven by God's grace. I pray I never lead anyone astray. I pray that I reveal the Truth so that the Holy Spirit can work in lives. That is all I can do. I have just prayed for you.

 

[vraiblonde]

When he met with Bush in Tenn. before the war Bush did not listen to his advice

If you wanted Pat Robertson to be President, you should get him on the ballot and vote for him.

 

[UrbanPancake]

My point is someone like Pat (who should be totally behind Bush considering Bush's religious convictions) isn't even agreeing with him on the Iraq issue, and apparently God thinks the war was wrong too.

 

[vraiblonde]

My point is someone like Pat (who should be totally behind Bush considering Bush's religious convictions) isn't even agreeing with him on the Iraq issue, and apparently God thinks the war was wrong too.

I find it interesting that you think Bush is this big liar and scoundrel, yet you're just oh so willing the take Pat Robertson's word at the drop of a hat.

If you think Bush is crazy because he says God talks to him, wouldn't it stand to reason that you'd think Robertson was crazy, too? So why are you taking the word of a crazy man as the gospel?

 

[UrbanPancake]

I find it interesting that you think Bush is this big liar and scoundrel, yet you're just oh so willing the take Pat Robertson's word at the drop of a hat.

If you think Bush is crazy because he says God talks to him, wouldn't it stand to reason that you'd think Robertson was crazy, too? So why are you taking the word of a crazy man as the gospel?

I think they're both crazy. That's my point. I war raised Catholic. I think I may have been to church maybe three times my whole life. I'm not sure if there is a God, but if there is I don't think God would care who is President. Like most of you guys have said in this forum "God gives us the gift of choice". So why would God give us this choice just to take it away from us and back Bush???? That doesn't sit well with me. I think Bush is crazy. Not only does he think Americans don't have a choice for President (because he thinks he has Gods backing), but he does everything in the name of HIS religion.