Question to those opposing Trump --

glhs837

glhs837

Power with Control
If you dont vote due to disinformation, I"m okay with you not voting. Information is out there, if you cant be bothered to find the reality behind the FB meme, you really shouldn't bother to leave the house. And I also think that the people who think as you do discount the sheer bad taste her behavior over Benghazi and the private server left in many peoples mouth. And of course accurate memes abot her lying about dodging Bosnian sniper fire and such didnt help. Face it, she was a crappy candidate and only the media meme that she was the Second Inevitable Candidate, it was Her Turn, it Has To Be, a Female President has to Follow the First Black President helped people think she had a chance as they sat in their enclaves and only ever attended parties attended by people who think like they do.

1. Fact, she used a private served in her role as a civil servant and allowed classified material to be compromised.

2. Fact, she was at a bare minimum complicit in the lies about real reasons behind the Benghazi attack. Not illegal, true, but it's the sort of thing that makes folks not trust you.

3. She, like anyone in public service/life for 30-40 years has a searchable record of statements that can be verified as factual or not. Yet another reason that a life time in politics is bad for us, and the people who engage in it.
 
T

transporter

Well-Known Member
[
QUOTE=SamSpade;5913294]Do you believe that ---

1. Russians not only interfered with the the 2016 election - not in dispute - but CHANGED THE OUTCOME
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?

That is impossible to answer. As has already been pointed out (and This Person can't understand), the ultimate outcome of the election was a very small vote difference in a few states (FL, PA, MI, WI). The Russian disinformation campaign has been reported to have targeted specific key districts. People who don't understand how our elections for President work (This_Person) won't understand that you don't need to hack the machines...you don't need to physically change vote tallies...you only have to convince enough people not to show up who will vote against your preferred candidate or to show up and vote for your preferred candidate. Swing a few key districts...swing the state...swing a few key states...win the election. Conceptually and mathematically this is not a tin foil hat scenario.

Did the interference change the outcome? No way of knowing...unanswerable with any degree of confidence.


2. Trump sought their assistance to win the election?
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Based solely on Trump's reactions...absolutely, yes I do. Innocent people don't act the way he does. Innocent people don't lie about everything surrounding an issue. Since Trump jumped into politics in the summer of 2015, his characteristics have been on display for the entire world to see. A 5 year old could bankrupt him in poker because Trump has so many "tells".

The Trump tower meeting is one obvious problem for the President. He has lied about this at every opportunity.

His campaign request for Russians to find Hillary's emails during the campaign is also a problem for him.

His complete inability to shut his mouth about Comey is another problem.

The failure of everyone around him to tell the truth about meeting with Russians is another problem.

His disgraceful actions in Helsinki...and on and on and on.

Yeah...it is pretty clear that there is a fire under all the smoke. Just like it was crystal clear from day 1 that Trump was lying about the porn star and playmate. No, those two issues are not Russia related...but they tell the character of Trump. Just follow the pattern.

3. Russians - or any foreign agent - spied on or hacked into Democrats, Hillary or the DNC at the expressed direction of Donald Trump or anyone in his campaign?
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Trump stood up on a stage and asked Russia to find the "33,000 emails". Did Trump initiate the contact with Russians...unknown at this point. They could have come to him first. But, again, just based solely on the way Trump acts...yeah there is a fire in the smoke. Again...maybe not as Trump direction...but he may have conspired after the hack.

It is also pretty clear that Trump isn't very bright. There is a really good possibility here that he was duped into owing the Russians. Trump has been played by every other world leader...the Russians apparently are masters at playing people. Trump would have been an easy target.
 
This_person

This_person

Well-Known Member
transporter said:
?

That is impossible to answer. As has already been pointed out (and This Person can't understand), the ultimate outcome of the election was a very small vote difference in a few states (FL, PA, MI, WI). The Russian disinformation campaign has been reported to have targeted specific key districts. People who don't understand how our elections for President work (This_Person) won't understand that you don't need to hack the machines...you don't need to physically change vote tallies...you only have to convince enough people not to show up who will vote against your preferred candidate or to show up and vote for your preferred candidate. Swing a few key districts...swing the state...swing a few key states...win the election. Conceptually and mathematically this is not a tin foil hat scenario.

Did the interference change the outcome? No way of knowing...unanswerable with any degree of confidence.
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Other than your ad hominem attacks against me, I agree with you here.

I was pointing out to your MPD that it is impossible to know WHAT the effect was. He/you claimed there was only a 77,000 vote difference, and I was suggesting the difference was several million in Clinton's favor. My point being that one cannot look at just a few states and say they made the difference.

There are 538 total electoral votes, and each state's vote matters. Reagan won California and New York and, well, every state except Minnesota. You can't assume that New York will always go blue.

If Clinton (TranSappy's favorite) was so great, she should have won Wyoming and Idaho and, well, all of them. The difference was far more than 77,000 votes was my point.

But, we agree, there's no way to know.
 
GURPS

GURPS

INGSOC
PREMO Member
Sapidus said:
It was much more than a handful. Hundreds of websites, bots and fake profiles have been found and if you think the one troll farm indicted is the only one you are out of your mind
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be Specific .... Links


nothing more was reported by Congress then a hand full of facebook ads
 
Hijinx

Hijinx

Well-Known Member
I cannot speak for other Trump voters and will not try.
I can only say that the Russians did not effect my vote.

Hilary did.

I can say that is Alphonse Capone had been running against that bi-sexual ,lying,nasty, lamp throwing, drunken, F-word using Skank I would have voted for Capone.
 
This_person

This_person

Well-Known Member
Sapidus said:
I have not seen any evidence that Russian were able to hack any voting machines and change anyones actual votes no.

However, The difference in this election was 77,000 votes.
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So, I tried to determine the source of your misinformation here about "77,000 votes". Trump would have lost if MI and PA went the other way, and the sum of vote totals for Trump in those two states has Trump up by 79,848 according to Politico.com. I'm guessing that is the source of the 77,000 votes, because it's really closer to 80,000, but you lie a lot.

Of course, that 80,000 vote difference assumes all others would have gone the same way. The vote difference in New Hampshire was only 2,732, so if those 80,000 would have voted differently the vote difference would have only been 2,732. That would have been enough to turn it back. To equal it out some more, the sum of Minnesota, Nevada, and Maine was 90,254 in Clinton's favor, so just a tad more and it would have been the same problem.

Another way to look at this is, if more people would have voted for Clinton, she would have won, but if more people would have voted for Trump he would have negated that win. But, there's absolutely no reason to believe that the votes were swayed (or not swayed), so it just doesn't matter how many "ifs" you come up with.
 
Grumpy

Grumpy

Well-Known Member
This_person said:
So, I tried to determine the source of your misinformation here about "77,000 votes". Trump would have lost if MI and PA went the other way, and the sum of vote totals for Trump in those two states has Trump up by 79,848 according to Politico.com. I'm guessing that is the source of the 77,000 votes, because it's really closer to 80,000, but you lie a lot.

Of course, that 80,000 vote difference assumes all others would have gone the same way. The vote difference in New Hampshire was only 2,732, so if those 80,000 would have voted differently the vote difference would have only been 2,732. That would have been enough to turn it back. To equal it out some more, the sum of Minnesota, Nevada, and Maine was 90,254 in Clinton's favor, so just a tad more and it would have been the same problem.

Another way to look at this is, if more people would have voted for Clinton, she would have won, but if more people would have voted for Trump he would have negated that win. But, there's absolutely no reason to believe that the votes were swayed (or not swayed), so it just doesn't matter how many "ifs" you come up with.
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:lol: Good post but it is way, way, way beyond Sappy's comprehension level.
 
SamSpade

SamSpade

Well-Known Member
GURPS said:
:bs:



Trump Told A JOKE
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Because no one could FIND the destroyed emails. He was joking "they hacked them? good, maybe THEY have the emails".
Because this was AFTER SHE DESTROYED emails she was asked to deliver.
ANYONE ELSE would have gone straight to m-effin' jail for that, and her answer of "huh"? was considered acceptable.
 
PsyOps

PsyOps

Pixelated
Sapidus said:
I have not seen any evidence that Russian were able to hack any voting machines and change anyones actual votes no.

However, The difference in this election was 77,000 votes.

I believe that the disinformation campaign that Russia paid for more than influenced that amount of people to not vote due to false information about the democratic party and Hillary Clinton. ( Pizzagate, Seth Rich, Hillary laughing about a child being raped, stealing the endorsement from Bernie)

https://www.weeklystandard.com/john...n-pennsylvania-wisconsin-and-michigan-updated

2. I have not seen evidence that Trump worked with the Russian Govt directly.

The meeting in Trump tower is very suspicious to me not only because it took place but because of the numerous lies told about it by Trump and his son.

Trump's behavior toward Putin and his lack of confidence and unwillingness to support our countries intelligence community is also very troubling and suspicious to me.

3. We know that Wikileaks dumped DNC emails and that Russia tried to hack DNC servers all with 48 hours of Trump asking publicly for them to find those missing emails. If he is saying that in public i have little doubt that he or people working for his campaign were most likely dong that and much more behind the scenes. We also know that second dump of emails lead Comey to make a unprecedented statement warning of the new crop of emails which certainly didnt help Clinton.


I would say given what we know it is ore than reasonable for Mueller to continue his investigation especially considering the amount of time he has been distracted by all the other crimes he has turned up along the way.


As much as everyone here hates Clinton I don't recall anyone saying the Benghazi investigation was going on too long or costing too much money. Why is this different?

I also don't recall Clinton tweeting everyone day about how she was persecuted and that it was a witch hunt. Why is this different?
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Sam asked what you believed, not what the facts show right now. Do you believe Trump colluded with the Russians to affect the outcome of the election in his favor?
 
SamSpade

SamSpade

Well-Known Member
transporter said:
that you don't need to hack the machines...you don't need to physically change vote tallies...you only have to convince enough people not to show up who will vote against your preferred candidate or to show up and vote for your preferred candidate. Swing a few key districts...swing the state...swing a few key states...win the election. .
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Something EVERYONE in politics understands, including the networks. The very reason we have "battleground" states. The very bread and butter of boots on the ground, knowing that some states will make the difference.

(However - beg to differ - you swing a state - there's no crucial district that will turn a whole state - you can lose a district by ten votes and gain ten in another - and still win the whole slate of electors - but a campaign spending BILLIONS usually handles that).

It's just - to me - laughable that two campaigns that spend a billion each were *somehow* thwarted by a tiny group of Russian hackers who knew exactly which voters to change their minds - as if their meager efforts changed anyone's mind. Seriously, did you know THAT many people who didn't know who they planned to vote for by the end of summer? Even as the Trump campaign was changing minds for Trump, and Hillary was changing minds for Hillary, SOMEHOW the Russians were changing the minds of the exact critical number in precisely the right states - something no one else was able to do.

Jeez, have you even SEEN some of their political ads? They're ridiculous.
 
PsyOps

PsyOps

Pixelated
Hijinx said:
I cannot speak for other Trump voters and will not try.
I can only say that the Russians did not effect my vote.

Hilary did.
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Ditto that. And it happened long before the election happened. Decades before. And, when the election was going on I couldn't stand Trump. That's how bad Hillary was. All that I have learned about the Clintons, they are evil to the core.
 
GURPS

GURPS

INGSOC
PREMO Member
SamSpade said:
Seriously, did you know THAT many people who didn't know who they planned to vote for by the end of summer?

Jeez, have you even SEEN some of their political ads? They're ridiculous.
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:nono:


Remember Sam Bush Masterminded 9/11 ... explosives were planted to bring down the 2 towers, and There was NO Crash in Shanksville PA


3000 + People Murdered NO ONE HAS Ever come forward
 
SamSpade

SamSpade

Well-Known Member
GURPS said:
:nono:


Remember Sam Bush Masterminded 9/11 ... explosives were planted to bring down the 2 towers, and There was NO Crash in Shanksville PA


3000 + People Murdered NO ONE HAS Ever come forward
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The Pentagon wasn't hit by a plane is the most baffling of all of them.
I've mentioned before, my father was walking toward the Pentagon from the annex when he saw it happen.
So the plane very visibly hit the Pentagon. Some who were on here said they were inside but at a distance
and saw the plane come through. There is of course, the fact that the plane never reappeared anywhere else.
I guess in order to ensure the story never comes out, they'd have to dispose of the plane and everyone ON it,
just to keep the "illusion" that a plane hit it, because their story is that a MISSILE hit it at exactly the same
moment, the plane disappeared and I'm guessing they killed everyone on that plane to hide it.

Which is out and out stupid, because if you plan to kill a plane full of people, why waste a missile -
and just crash the damned plane? Not to mention the bizarre flight pattern it took before hitting the Pentagon.

But no crash in Shanksville? So again, all those people disappeared? And they, what, created the debris?
I think the conspiratorial story I hear is that WE shot it down once we heard it had been taken. It makes no
difference in the outcome, however.

The planting of explosives in the towers - with no one aware ahead of time - and timing the collapse with
flying of planes into the building - and the manner in which it collapsed - the destruction of both towers
would have to be extremely well masterminded to go off as the conspiracy claims - or in the spirit of
Occam's Razor - it could have been the planes.
 
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