2A - Need your help on this...

[rainesrw]

dinosaurs in the bible - Job 40:15-24

Take a look at this link - it is good reading on the subject.

http://www.angelfire.com/mi/dinosaurs/behemoth.html

But the bottom line is like God asked Job (Job Chapter 38):

Where were you when I created the earth?
Tell me, since you know so much!
Who decided on its size? Certainly you'll know that!
Who came up with the blueprints and measurements?
How was its foundation poured,
and who set the cornerstone,
While the morning stars sang in chorus
and all the angels shouted praise?
And who took charge of the ocean
when it gushed forth like a baby from the womb?
That was me! I wrapped it in soft clouds,
and tucked it in safely at night.

 

[Hessian]

Mythology...written by man.

If you would like to take a hard look at mythology generated by brilliant scholars....

Look at the "descent of Man" charts beginning at the 1900.
What we see is an ever-evolving mess of descent patterns that try to embrace the latest find...and discount the previous finds.
Do your homework: tell me why Ramapithicus was the "earliest"...then dropped totally.
Tell me all about the ridiculous recoveries of "Java Man."
Nothing like throwing in Nebraska man just for a laugh.

Fact: The competing schools of thought regarding the descent of man are on equal parallel with the Greeks arguing with the Romans regarding who's collections of gods are the best.
Whether it is the Leakey clan or David Johannson's Lucy...or the missing collections of Peking man.....they have more screwed up theories than gods hanging around Olympus.---THAT is mythology.

Sola Scriptura.

 

[tirdun]

Look at the "descent of Man" charts beginning at the 1900.
What we see is an ever-evolving mess of descent patterns that try to embrace the latest find...and discount the previous finds.

Look at the table of elements beginning in the 1900s. What you see is an ever evolving system of knowledge that attempt to expand the theory in accordance with new thought, expanded understanding and solidification of knowledge.

Do your homework: tell me why Ramapithicus was the "earliest"...then dropped totally. Tell me all about the ridiculous recoveries of "Java Man." Nothing like throwing in Nebraska man just for a laugh.

Ramipithicus is believed to be a dead end of evolution, a primate that has no contemporary decedents. Science discovered it, conjectured a connection with human lineage due to the location of the fossils, then abandoned that hypothesis when the facts didn't stand up. Science in action.

Java Man is a mystery due to a lack of evidence. It could fall into human lineage, a sister line, or some other primate line.

Nebraska Man was a mistake that lasted all of five years and was ended by scientific scrutiny. It is no victory for creationism.

Fact: The competing schools of thought regarding the descent of man are on equal parallel with the Greeks arguing with the Romans regarding who's collections of gods are the best.

Care to give an example? Competing schools of mainstream hominid study may argue about details, processes and specifics, but there is no argument about the foundation of evolutionary theory. Its akin to saying modern germ theory is rife with debate because doctors cannot agree on a treatment for certain diseases.

The earth is 4 billion years old. The universe is three times that. Humans never coexisted with dinosaurs and evolution is understood and accepted.

Whether it is the Leakey clan or David Johannson's Lucy

I see you're well versed in your creationist literature, however I'd suggest you read something with substance. "Lucy" is a perfect example of misquotes, ignorance and intentional misrepresentation of the truth.

Sola Scriptura.

Which ends all argument, I suppose.

It very often happens that there is some question as to the earth or the sky, or the other elements of this world -- respecting which one who is not a Christian has knowledge derived from most certain reasoning or observation, and it is very disgraceful and mischievous and of all things to be carefully avoided, that a Christian speaking of such matters as being according to the Christian Scriptures, should be heard by an unbeliever talking such nonsense that the unbeliever perceiving him to be as wide of the mark as east from west, can hardly restrain himself from laughing. --Saint Augustine

 

[Hessian]

I fully agree that the expanding knowledge in many fields is credible & laudable. My concern is that TOTALLY apart from the creation /int. design argument...
The study & presentation of Hominids has been a scientific tempest....to the point of great embarrassment to different schools of thought. Certainly they all stand firmly on the idea of Evolution...but friom that point on...it gets very chaotic.
They challenged Homo habilis and moved the date over 400,000 years.
They shuffled the laotoli (?) footprint dates also.
They shoved Neanderthalis to the dead end...and now are bringing him back in.
Why does the skull CC shrink between Neanderthalis & Cro Magnon?
Ramapithicus was considered a great breakthrough then shoved in the dust bin. Who is going to re-arrange the "Descent of Man" dioramas in the Smithsonian Next? Is National Geo going to print any retractions?/Corrections?

The scientific community is both proud and embarrassed at the same time. It is perplexing to anyone who follows the study of hominids (and finds it fascinating) as we await the next discovery of "Krippendorf's tribe."
Try reading Bones of Contention.
Hessian.....

 

[2ndAmendment]

...
Nebraska Man was a mistake that lasted all of five years and was ended by scientific scrutiny. It is no victory for creationism.

But Nebraska Man was the "evidence" presented at the Scopes (monkey) trial as "absolute evidence" of prehistoric man. The fact is that the drawings presented were developed from one tooth which turned out to be a pig. That was the beginning of evolution being taught in schools. Five years is enough time to completely mess up humanity. What? No mention of the Piltdown man fiasco? It took 40 years to expose a hoax that bore directly on human ancestry.

Piltdown man is one of the most famous frauds in the history of science. In 1912 Charles Dawson discovered the first of two skulls found in the Piltdown quarry in Sussex, England, skulls of an apparently primitive hominid, an ancestor of man. Piltdown man, or Eoanthropus dawsoni to use his scientific name, was a sensation. He was the expected "missing link" a mixture of human and ape with the noble brow of Homo sapiens and a primitive jaw. Best of all, he was British!

As the years went by and new finds of ancient hominids were made, Piltdown man became an anomaly that didn't fit in, a creature without a place in the human family tree. Finally, in 1953, the truth came out. Piltdown man was a hoax, the most ancient of people who never were. http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/piltdown.html

Science changes its "absolute facts" all the time.

I stick with the Bible.

 

[itsbob]

If you would like to take a hard look at mythology generated by brilliant scholars....

Look at the "descent of Man" charts beginning at the 1900.
What we see is an ever-evolving mess of descent patterns that try to embrace the latest find...and discount the previous finds.
Do your homework: tell me why Ramapithicus was the "earliest"...then dropped totally.
Tell me all about the ridiculous recoveries of "Java Man."
Nothing like throwing in Nebraska man just for a laugh.

Fact: The competing schools of thought regarding the descent of man are on equal parallel with the Greeks arguing with the Romans regarding who's collections of gods are the best.
Whether it is the Leakey clan or David Johannson's Lucy...or the missing collections of Peking man.....they have more screwed up theories than gods hanging around Olympus.---THAT is mythology.

Sola Scriptura.

Which to me means, as technology and knowledge improve what we know to be true also improves.. look!! The planet isn't flat!!

The scriptures are based on knowledge from the first century.. not very vast, very limited... yet you believe it to be the only truth?? Not very open minded, and personally don't think it to be a very intelligent choice.. it IS a choice, I just don't think "The Scriptures say so" is a very good argument for anything if you are more then 8 years old.

Look at the "trinity" post.. "This is what it means.. read it for yourself" "Here are 20 places in the scriptures that contradict with each other, and THIS is the contradiction that is true!!"

So tell me, why are the Scientologists wrong?



Bottom line, it was written by man, with the knowledge man had at the time.. you can choose to believe it, I choose to take it at face value.

 

[Kain99]

Let me simplfy all of this. God is not magic. He did not wave his wand and scream Wa La!

God is a realist..... Science and God honestly go hand in hand. It's only the microbes that reduce the truth.

Life is good.

 

[itsbob]

Let me simplfy all of this. God is not magic. He did not wave his wand and scream Wa La!

God is a realist..... Science and God honestly go hand in hand. It's only the microbes that reduce the truth.

Life is good.

Who's God?? Zeus was around a long time before the bible was written.. then we have BUDDHA.. he's been around FOREVER..

I like bein shiatstirrin shiats bob..

 

[Kain99]

Who's God?? Zeus was around a long time before the bible was written.. then we have BUDDHA.. he's been around FOREVER..

I like bein shiatstirrin shiats bob..

Sleep it off Bobby!

 

[itsbob]

Sleep it off Bobby!

Went to see the O's play tonight.. 15-0 win.. now just trying to wind down from the ride home..

 

[tirdun]

But Nebraska Man was the "evidence" presented at the Scopes (monkey) trial

Shocking as it may seem, 2ndAmmendment is quoting creationist sources that are, in total, wrong.

Hesperopithecus was not mentioned by anyone during the course of the Scopes trial, although other major discoveries of fossil hominids were discussed from the stand and in written testimony. Recent claims by Hitching that "the Hesperopithecus tooth was proudly displayed [at the trial] as evidence that man had a long evolutionary past" (1982, p. 211) are simply untrue; it is equally false that "the trial that became a significant turning point in U.S. educational history . . . was steered towards its verdict by a pig's tooth." (Hitching, 1982, p. 212)

In essence, the judge declared that scientists could not be called to the stand because evolution as a science was outside the scope of the Snopes trial. Snopes was convicted, and only on appeal was creationism struck from the curriculum.

That was the beginning of evolution being taught in schools.

Following germ theory, tectonic theory and a number of other sciences.

Five years is enough time to completely mess up humanity. What? No mention of the Piltdown man fiasco? It took 40 years to expose a hoax that bore directly on human ancestry.

And who exposed it? Scientists.

Science changes its "absolute facts" all the time.

Galileo is thankful that religion does as well.

 

[tirdun]

The study & presentation of Hominids has been a scientific tempest....to the point of great embarrassment to different schools of thought. Certainly they all stand firmly on the idea of Evolution...but friom that point on...it gets very chaotic.

I don't see the flux that creationists or IDers are claiming exists. The examples you give describe parts of a science that is both complex and constantly being undermined by people who refuse to accept that the universe is vastly older and more complex than they can accept.

<i>Wisdom calls aloud in the street, she raises her voice in the public squares; at the head of the noisy streets she cries out, in the gateways of the city she makes her speech: "How long will you simple ones love your simple ways? How long will mockers delight in mockery and fools hate knowledge? </i> Proverbs 1:20

 

[2ndAmendment]

Shocking as it may seem, 2amendment is quoting creationist sources that are, in total, wrong.

Shocking as it may seem, tirdun is totally wrong about my source, but hey, science and scientists are wrong about lots of stuff. Right about stuff, too.

Tirdum, until you get to the faith of a child, you will never see the evidence of the Spirit. Hope you do some day.

Read the site. It actually has a section of evidence supporting evolution. There is one on creation, too. http://www.talkorigins.org/
Nebraska "man" http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/wolfmellett.html
Piltdown "man" http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/piltdown.html

 

[2ndAmendment]

<i>Wisdom calls aloud in the street, she raises her voice in the public squares; at the head of the noisy streets she cries out, in the gateways of the city she makes her speech: "How long will you simple ones love your simple ways? How long will mockers delight in mockery and fools hate knowledge? </i> Proverbs 1:20

If you are going to quote the Bible, you ought to do it correctly. Your quote is actually Proverbs 1:20-22. Of course you took the verses out of context. Verses 23 to 33 go on to show that it is God that is calling the people foolish for not following His wisdom. And since they don't follow His word and wisdom in good times, then He will not help them in their calamities. Of course that didn't meet the criteria of your paradigm, did it?

Proverbs 1:20-33

20Wisdom shouts in the street,
She lifts her voice in the square;
21At the head of the noisy streets she cries out;
At the entrance of the gates in the city she utters her sayings:
22"How long, O naive ones, will you love being simple-minded?
And scoffers delight themselves in scoffing
And fools hate knowledge?
23"Turn to my reproof,
Behold, I will pour out my spirit on you;
I will make my words known to you.
24"Because I called and you refused,
I stretched out my hand and no one paid attention;
25And you neglected all my counsel
And did not want my reproof;
26I will also laugh at your calamity;
I will mock when your dread comes,
27When your dread comes like a storm
And your calamity comes like a whirlwind,
When distress and anguish come upon you.
28"Then they will call on me, but I will not answer;
They will seek me diligently but they will not find me,
29Because they hated knowledge
And did not choose the fear of the LORD.
30"They would not accept my counsel,
They spurned all my reproof.
31"So they shall eat of the fruit of their own way
And be satiated with their own devices.
32"For the waywardness of the naive will kill them,
And the complacency of fools will destroy them.
33"But he who listens to me shall live securely
And will be at ease from the dread of evil."

 

[dems4me]

... I've never seen anything in the bible about them.
...

I skimmed this thread and didn't really see anyone answer about dinosaurs in the Bible ... some believe there are references to dinosaurs (large animal/beasts) found in the Book of Job.

 

[2ndAmendment]

I skimmed this thread and didn't really see anyone answer about dinosaurs in the Bible ... some believe there are references to dinosaurs (large animal/beasts) found in the Book of Job.

I've told you about skimming.

 

[itsbob]

I skimmed this thread and didn't really see anyone answer about dinosaurs in the Bible ... some believe there are references to dinosaurs (large animal/beasts) found in the Book of Job.

I don't know how the bible could mention dinosaurs, since the bible dates the earth at 6000 years, and dinosaurs died out 65 MILLION years ago..

What you mention as Leviathin and a Behemoth is actually thought to be a crocodile or Hippo, and elephants..

The other interpretation of Tanniyn mentioned a number of times in the old testament was mistakenly translated to mean "dragon".. truth (scientific truth) is that man and the dinosaur didn't live together on this earth.

So no Dems, man and dinosaur did not co-exist, and if you look it up you get a lot of "we believe" or "I believe" from a lot of Christian sites with not one iota of proof.. the proof again lands on sciences side.

 

[2ndAmendment]

I don't know how the bible could mention dinosaurs, since the bible dates the earth at 6000 years, and dinosaurs died out 65 MILLION years ago..

What you mention as Leviathin and a Behemoth is actually thought to be a crocodile or Hippo, and elephants..

The other interpretation of Tanniyn mentioned a number of times in the old testament was mistakenly translated to mean "dragon".. truth (scientific truth) is that man and the dinosaur didn't live together on this earth.

So no Dems, man and dinosaur did not co-exist, and if you look it up you get a lot of "we believe" or "I believe" from a lot of Christian sites with not one iota of proof.. the proof again lands on sciences side.

That is YOUR belief. The dating methods are GIGO to me.

 

[itsbob]

That is YOUR belief. The dating methods are GIGO to me.

No, these are scientific facts.. YOURs are beliefs..

The methods are GIGO to you, because you have your head buried in the sand. For someone as smart as you are, you sure do take a lot for granted without question, explanation, or investigation..

 

[2ndAmendment]

No, these are scientific facts.. YOURs are beliefs..

The methods are GIGO to you, because you have your head buried in the sand. For someone as smart as you are, you sure do take a lot for granted without question, explanation, or investigation..

Try that explanation when you die. Bet it doesn't work.