2A - Need your help on this...

[Midnightrider]

Try that explanation when you die. Bet it doesn't work.

carbon dating might not be totally accurate but its not off by such a huge a factor as to make 65 million close to 6000.

as for the when you die comment. i guess we will all know if we are on the right track when we die. But no one knows, and the only reason you have such conviction is your faith of a "child". If you ask a six yearold about santa you would get the same level of conviction, but does that mean that the child "knows"?

 

[Hessian]

Dating...

I had an interesting assignment to my archaeology class a few years back:
Research dating methods.

The result was a rather complex chart that examined radiometric methods, stratigraphy, typology, ice core, salt content, polar oscillation, etc.

I enjoyed it thoroughly.
One key element that every scientist should NOT shrink from...
"What are the flaws?"
And sure enough,...each method has to be built on some assumptions & parallel comparisons (relying on an equally questionable method.)
many of the scientists who do archaeology find themselves relying on OTHERS to establish their date because.....you figure it out!

So...is there anything in scripture that is outright scientific falsehood?
Has archaeology so discredited the lineage of the Kings, or the Descriptions of Jerusalem, or the presence of rival kingdoms?
I have yet to hear of one major university yelling "I've done it...the Bible is Wrong! Here is the artifact that proves it!!! "...why is that?

 

[itsbob]

Try that explanation when you die. Bet it doesn't work.

But I'm a mere mortal.. I'm fallible, he's an understanding and a loving God.. IF I meet him, I'm sure we'll have a discussion, and all will be forgiven..

I saw a bumper sticker this morning..

You can't be Catholic and pro-abortion..

In other words if you aren't in lockstep with the church, you need to go away. Don't be a thinker, don't question the church.. just believe in what we tell you to believe, vote how we tell you to vote, believe us without question what is right and wrong..

 

[brendar buhl]

Haven't posted in a while but this caught my eye. I think that it is important to think about what the purpose of the Bible is. If you believe that it is God's Word (as I do) then you probably don't think that it was written to teach us how old the Earth is or whether the Earth is square or round. Copernicus was persecuted for challenging the traditional view of the Bible, he was right; the Bible thumpers were wrong. Scientists are studying the universe to learn about it and extract whatever knowledge they can from creation. Here's what the Bible in Psalm 19 says they will find:

1The heavens declare the glory of God;
the skies proclaim the work of his hands.
2 Day after day they pour forth speech;
night after night they display knowledge.
3 There is no speech or language
where their voice is not heard.

God hasn't rigged the universe with lies to trip up the scientific community. When we study science we are studying God.

Back to the Bible, it is there to teach us about God. It is poetry and metaphore that provides a base historical knowledge of the relationships people have had with God.

As a Christian I don't think that Science is my enemy. Science should be respected and used to increase your appreciation for the amazing mystery of creation.

 

[tirdun]

I'm not going to bother to reply to 2A. He said nothing of value and continuing to debate him is a waste of effort by his own admission.

As for dating methods and their errors: All dating methods are accurate and precise within a certain degree, but only if used correctly by people who know the limitations of the devices. Consider a truck scale. Is it accurate? Sure, but only to a degree. Useful information is gained from it within acceptable levels. If you were to go put your cat on one, it would probably tell you fluffy weighed nothing or 50 pounds or some other clearly false number. Is the scale broken? No, you're using it wrong and expecting results it isn't capable of giving you.

This thread has gone, as these all seem to, completely off the rails and I'm done with it. There are no dinosaurs in the Bible. Creatures like dragons and whales and generic "sea creatures" are mentioned in ways that could be construed to represent dinosaurs, or any other large creature. Is Leviathan a plesiosaur? If so, none ever grew large enough to eat a man, nor is any whale likely to try. Taking Leviathan as a true creature means taking Job as a true story, one in which God bets Satan that Job will lose faith after having his family massacred and being tortured for decades.

 

[wxtornado]

I'm not going to bother to reply to 2A. He said nothing of value and continuing to debate him is a waste of effort by his own admission.

As for dating methods and their errors: All dating methods are accurate and precise within a certain degree, but only if used correctly by people who know the limitations of the devices.

More importantly, dating methods from differing disciplines of science converge to the same outcome. Coincidence? I think not.

 

[Hessian]

I like the scale analogy used...I think that is an clever comparison to dating techniques.

May I extend the analogy?
Mack truck A is loaded and tips the scale at 35,000.lbs
Mack truck B is loaded but doesn't swing by the scale...he draws the conclusion, "Yep...we got about the same amout of gravel, and my tires look bulgy like truck A...so We have 35,000 lbs."

Enter Barney Fife at a weigh station...down in Marbury.
Hey Truck B...you've got 42000 on that load! Why did you overload????
Truck B says..."Well, I picked it up at the same place...its made of the same stuff,...and the yard man gave me the green light to run with it."

Truck B was off by 20% in his estimate, and he based it on what everybody else was doing...even got the OK from above without testing himself...or perhaps even using a different scale.

This scenario is VERY close to what happens in dating research. If the same type of fossils or typology is found...and Professor Bernstein tested a similar strata 4 miles from here in 1969....this is the same age.
This is sloppy science. But it passes all the time.... why?
a) Cost of redating
b) Must have parameters for research and it is easier to accept predecessor's work.
c) Human nature...we want to be a team player and not rock the boat and possibly embarrass our department and call into question our previous research.

many finds can only rely on 1 dating technique (due to assumed age)....what if we discover tomorrow that the method is totally unreliable: IT SCREWS UP ALL THE MODELS THAT RELY ON THAT DATING METHOD.

 

[brendar buhl]

There should be a science forum.

 

[Bustem' Down]

So...is there anything in scripture that is outright scientific falsehood?

Yes, the extreme long lives of Old Testement Prophets, Jonah living inside a whale, Sampson having superhuman strength. All these are easily explained because God can suspend the laws of nature. This is part of the reason science doesn't have much of an interest in "biblical scientific reaserch."

I have yet to hear of one major university yelling "I've done it...the Bible is Wrong! Here is the artifact that proves it!!! "...why is that?

Because like every other religious document, the Bible is vauge and cannot be disproven or proven. Faith is what makes you believe that the bible is true and to prove it beyond a shadow of a doubt would remove faith from the equation. That would be worse actually that proving the bible false becuase people would still have faith at that point.

 

[2ndAmendment]

... means taking Job as a true story, one in which God bets Satan that Job will lose faith after having his family massacred and being tortured for decades.

Again, if you insist on trying to talk about the Bible, you really ought to be correct. It was satan that claimed his right to test Job. There are only two time lines given in Job. One is that Job's friends, Eliphaz the Temanite, Bildad the Shuhite and Zophar the Naamathite, and they sat with Job for seven days and nights without speaking.

Job 2:11-13

11Now when Job's three friends heard of all this adversity that had come upon him, they came each one from his own place, Eliphaz the Temanite, Bildad the Shuhite and Zophar the Naamathite; and they made an appointment together to come to sympathize with him and comfort him.

12When they lifted up their eyes at a distance and did not recognize him, they raised their voices and wept. And each of them tore his robe and they threw dust over their heads toward the sky.

13Then they sat down on the ground with him for seven days and seven nights with no one speaking a word to him, for they saw that his pain was very great.

The remainder of Job up to the last verses of the last chapter are an account of Job's conversations with his friends and with God. I doubt that the conversations took "decades." Most of those chapters are written as quotes. It certainly doesn't take decades to read.

The only other time line is the age of Job after he was restored.

Job 42:16-17

16After this, Job lived 140 years, and saw his sons and his grandsons, four generations.

17And Job died, an old man and full of days.

 

[2ndAmendment]

Yes, the extreme long lives of Old Testement Prophets, Jonah living inside a whale, Sampson having superhuman strength. All these are easily explained because God can suspend the laws of nature. This is part of the reason science doesn't have much of an interest in "biblical scientific reaserch."

Because like every other religious document, the Bible is vauge and cannot be disproven or proven. Faith is what makes you believe that the bible is true and to prove it beyond a shadow of a doubt would remove faith from the equation. That would be worse actually that proving the bible false becuase people would still have faith at that point.

These are not falsehoods. People negate the power of God. "It can't be because I can't do it." Guess what? You are not God.