8 fights this week at McDonough HS

glitch

Devil's Advocate
The thread is about Charles County. :duh:

What's your point? All of my posts have referenced the fact that I'm talking about SMCPS. Charles, Calvert, and St. Mary's have a lot of similarities as far as operations go. Not to mention, a smiley holding a BS flag isn't what I'd consider an informative response to a post. If you were trying to say it doesn't apply to Charles then say that.
 

Sweet 16

^^8^^
LaPlata High sends the kids to Stethem educational Center. I am no sure if this alternative school is for all of Charles County. I live in Calvert and found out recently that EACH district-high school has its own alternative class. Which after more investigating, Calvert seems to uphold a much more stricter policy than Stethem in Charles. At the very best to say about public education, at least an altrnative is around for the troubled youth. Frankly, yes, alot of it has to do with the parents, but it also has most to do with the teen and peers theirselves.

They do go to Stethem....then they go back to their school.....then back to Stethem.....then back to their school.....like a ping-pong ball. And the problem is never fixed, just moved around.
 

Bann

Doris Day meets Lady Gaga
PREMO Member
Administrators are sometimes at fault but the real villain is various federal laws requiring free and appropriate public education (IDEA comes to mind). A student with an IEP can be suspended for more than 10 days, or even expelled, but it takes a whole other set of meetings and findings, which is where many administrators drop the ball.

With all due respect, the "villian" is really not the IDEA law, but the way the states, and the individual Local Education Agencys (school districts) implement the IDEA law.

``(2) Before the date of enactment of the Education for All
Handicapped Children Act of 1975 (Public Law 94-142), the
educational needs of millions of children with disabilities were
not being fully met because--
``(A) the children did not receive appropriate
educational services;
``(B) the children were excluded entirely from the
public school system and from being educated with their
peers;
``(C) undiagnosed disabilities prevented the
children from having a successful educational
experience; or
``(D) a lack of adequate resources within the public
school system forced families to find services outside
the public school system.
``(3) Since the enactment and implementation of the
Education for All Handicapped Children Act of 1975, this title
has been successful in ensuring children with disabilities and
the families of such children access to a free appropriate
public education and in improving educational results for
children with disabilities.
The bottom line is that the rights of an officially identified special education student (per federal law - IDEA) to a "free and appropriate public education" often outweigh the rights of the majority of the children to have a distraction-free educational environment. There are no federal laws that safeguard "normal" children.

Again, with all due respect-that is not the reason the IDEA law was enacted nor intended to be implemented. Speaking as a mom with a child in Special Ed, I can say that he is not getting a "distraction-free" educational environment. Believe me when I say this, he could certainly use it because he is highly distractible, but that's not what IDEA is supposed to be for. And going back as long as I can remember, it has never been the case that his education was given more rights than the majority of students in any of his mainstream classes.

``(4) However, the implementation of this title has been
impeded by low expectations, and an insufficient focus on
applying replicable research on proven methods of teaching and
learning for children with disabilities.
``(5) Almost 30 years of research and experience has
demonstrated that the education of children with disabilities
can be made more effective by--
``(A) having high expectations for such children and
ensuring their access to the general education
curriculum in the regular classroom, to the maximum
extent possible, in order to--
``(i) meet developmental goals and, to the
maximum extent possible, the challenging
expectations that have been established for all
children; and
``(ii) be prepared to lead productive and
independent adult lives, to the maximum extent
possible;
``(B) strengthening the role and responsibility of
parents and ensuring that families of such children have
meaningful opportunities to participate in the education
of their children at school and at home;
``(C) coordinating this title with other local,
educational service agency, State, and Federal school
improvement efforts, including improvement efforts under
the Elementary and Secondary Education Act of 1965, in
order to ensure that such children benefit from such
efforts and that special education can become a service
for such children rather than a place where such
children are sent;
``(D) providing appropriate special education and
related services, and aids and supports in the regular
classroom, to such children, whenever appropriate;
``(E) supporting high-quality, intensive preservice
preparation and professional development for all
personnel who work with children with disabilities in
order to ensure that such personnel have the skills and
knowledge necessary to improve the academic achievement
and functional performance of children with disabilities,
including the use of scientifically based instructional practices, to
the maximum extent possible;
``(F) providing incentives for whole-school
approaches, scientifically based early reading programs,
positive behavioral interventions and supports, and
early intervening services to reduce the need to label
children as disabled in order to address the learning
and behavioral needs of such children;
``(G) focusing resources on teaching and learning
while reducing paperwork and requirements that do not
assist in improving educational results; and
``(H) supporting the development and use of
technology, including assistive technology devices and
assistive technology services, to maximize accessibility
for children with disabilities.
``(6) While States, local educational agencies, and
educational service agencies are primarily responsible for
providing an education for all children with disabilities, it is
in the national interest that the Federal Government have a
supporting role in assisting State and local efforts to educate
children with disabilities in order to improve results for such
children and to ensure equal protection of the law.
``(7) A more equitable allocation of resources is essential
for the Federal Government to meet its responsibility to provide
an equal educational opportunity for all individuals.
``(8) Parents and schools should be given expanded
opportunities to resolve their disagreements in positive and
constructive ways.

Correct, it's called a manifestation hearing. The problem, especially with children with ED/OD, is that it's extremely hard to prove that their actions were not a result of their 'disability/diagnosis'. By definition anytime a child with OD refuses to comply it's a 'manifestation' of their diagnosis. It's complete and total BS in my opinion.

I'd sure like to know more about this particular situation. But unless you are part of the IEP process, there isn't really any way to know the exact diagnosis of a student & what their disability is.

``(d) Purposes.--The purposes of this title are--
``(1)(A) to ensure that all children with disabilities have
available to them a free appropriate public education that
emphasizes special education and related services designed to
meet their unique needs and prepare them for further education,
employment, and independent living;
``(B) to ensure that the rights of children with
disabilities and parents of such children are protected; and
``(C) to assist States, localities, educational service
agencies, and Federal agencies to provide for the education of
all children with disabilities;
``(2) to assist States in the implementation of a statewide,
comprehensive, coordinated, multidisciplinary, interagency
system of early intervention services for infants and toddlers
with disabilities and their families;
``(3) to ensure that educators and parents have the
necessary tools to improve educational results for children with
disabilities by supporting system improvement activities;
coordinated research and personnel preparation; coordinated
technical assistance, dissemination, and support; and technology
development and media services; and
``(4) to assess, and ensure the effectiveness of, efforts to
educate children with disabilities.

http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=108_cong_public_laws&docid=f:publ446.108
 

mindy

New Member
I believe that those who choose to recite the pledge of allegiance in school should be allowed to do so. Those who don't wish to, shouldn't.

You dont have to....they try to make you but legally cant force it if you say no. Believe me, I know lol.
 

ItalianScallion

Harley Rider
Religion has no place in public institutions. Period.
Coming from you, the "devils child" says it all. What an ignorant statement that is. Anyone can see the difference in the schools and society since the removal of God from most them. The OP asked why and it was answered. Sorry that you don't agree but you are aptly named.
So you don't believe the Pledge of Allegiance should be recited at school?

Our country was founded on Judeo-Christian values. Those values are obviously lacking in our schools and our youth.

They are gone because progessive a$$holes like yourself have removed them. Now we have fights every day in schools.
:yay: There is another BIG problem. We've allowed our government to kiss the a$$e$ of those foreigners and now AMERICAN PATRIOTISM is at an all time low! So, if they don't want to say the pledge, GO BACK TO YOUR HOME COUNTRY AND PLEDGE TO IT! This is what we do in America. You don't like it? BEAT IT! Don't get me started on patriotism; that's way off topic.
I believe that those who choose to recite the pledge of allegiance in school should be allowed to do so. Those who don't wish to, shouldn't. Unlike the Religious Reich, I believe in personal freedom. Which includes my right to not have to listen to religious babble while attending a public institution. Keep your religion to yourself and I'll keep my "psyco-babble" for those who are intelligent enough to understand the scientific principles behind it. Sound good?
Oh, so you can babble on but we can't? Typical liberal!
You've got to be kidding me? You're actually going to sit there and say that those fights were the result of a lack of religion? Morals can be taught without religion. To believe otherwise is just self-inflicted ignorance. Those children need discipline, not religion.

In fact, I find it hilarious that anyone would ever attempt to equate religious values with a lack of violence. A quick look at the history books will tell you that religion has been the cause of more violence than any other factor, maybe even all other factors combined. When people stop slaughtering one another over something as ridiculous as an invisible, all-powerful man in the sky you can talk. Until then, you're just being hypocritical.
You are seriously misguided & lost my friend. Ray Charles can see better than you can.
 

ItalianScallion

Harley Rider
You dont have to....they try to make you but legally cant force it if you say no. Believe me, I know lol.
What do you mean they don't have to? Is this what our schools are teaching?
If my tax money can fund abortion, then those %@$# kids whose schools I fund WILL say the pledge!
Do you have something against pledging of allegiance to our flag?
 

mindy

New Member
What do you mean they don't have to? Is this what our schools are teaching?
If my tax money can fund abortion, then those %@$# kids whose schools I fund WILL say the pledge!
Do you have something against pledging of allegiance to our flag?


No, I was written up and sent to ISS for not doing it at Spring Ridge, and then kicked out of homeroom at GM. They most definitely are not teaching that its perfectly legal not to. You "have" to.


Actually, yes I do. the "I pledge allegiance to the flag" part. the rest I dont mind. :thumbsup: so before jumping on me..it might've been nice to find that out.
 

ItalianScallion

Harley Rider
No, I was written up and sent to ISS for not doing it at Spring Ridge, and then kicked out of homeroom at GM. They most definitely are not teaching that its perfectly legal not to. You "have" to.

Actually, yes I do. the "I pledge allegiance to the flag" part. the rest I dont mind. :thumbsup: so before jumping on me..it might've been nice to find that out.
You must be a woman since you're confusing the life out of me here.
Are you from a foreign country too?
You were written up for not saying it at one school and removed from GM but you really don't mind saying it....then you say that you DO mind the "I pledge allegiance" part???? :jameo:
Please explain this to me Mindy.
 

slaphappynmd

New Member
Coming from you, the "devils child" says it all. What an ignorant statement that is. Anyone can see the difference in the schools and society since the removal of God from most them. The OP asked why and it was answered. Sorry that you don't agree but you are aptly named.

:yay: There is another BIG problem. We've allowed our government to kiss the a$$e$ of those foreigners and now AMERICAN PATRIOTISM is at an all time low! So, if they don't want to say the pledge, GO BACK TO YOUR HOME COUNTRY AND PLEDGE TO IT! This is what we do in America. You don't like it? BEAT IT! Don't get me started on patriotism; that's way off topic.

Oh, so you can babble on but we can't? Typical liberal!

You are seriously misguided & lost my friend. Ray Charles can see better than you can.

Go hump your freaking bible.
 

mindy

New Member
You must be a woman since you're confusing the life out of me here.
Are you from a foreign country too?
You were written up for not saying it at one school and removed from GM but you really don't mind saying it....then you say that you DO mind the "I pledge allegiance" part???? :jameo:
Please explain this to me Mindy.

I thought the Mindy part would show Im female, hehe...
but

say..WHAT?

No, Ive lived in MD my whole life, St. Marys for half of it... I have records of my family back s few hundred years in N and SC, so Im pretty sure im American LOL

I was written up and kicked out of homeroom for not saying it because I flat refused after 5th grade...hence being at Spring Ridge and Great Mills when I was in trouble for not saying it.

No....I mind saying it because of the pledging to a flag. I dont care what it "stands" for, youre LITERALLY pledging TO the FLAG and that seriously bothers me... so no saying it for me!

Make more sense?
 

ItalianScallion

Harley Rider
I thought the Mindy part would show Im female, hehe...
No, Ive lived in MD my whole life, St. Marys for half of it...

I was written up and kicked out of homeroom for not saying it because I flat refused after 5th grade...hence being at Spring Ridge and Great Mills when I was in trouble for not saying it.

No....I mind saying it because of the pledging to a flag. I dont care what it "stands" for, youre LITERALLY pledging TO the FLAG and that seriously bothers me... so no saying it for me! Make more sense?
Yes, thank you.
First: Not everyone on here is what their screen name indicates. Even though yours implies female, it doesn't always mean you are but thank you for the clarification.
Next: Maybe you just don't understand what it is we mean when we pledge allegiance to the flag. As an American, we all should pledge to honor and respect the flag, meaning that we do respect the flag itself AND what it stands for.
Your statement: "I don't care what it stands for" indicates to me that you are probably an angry teen ager or close to it??? America is a great country. It's the government and a large group of people that ruin it. We should still pledge to respect this country in spite of the "bad apples" in it.
It bothers me when anyone says they hate this country or the flag or anything that she has stood for for the last 233 years. Either help make it better or leave.
 

mindy

New Member
Yes, thank you.

Your statement: "I don't care what it stands for" indicates to me that you are probably an angry teen ager or close to it??? America is a great country. It's the government and a large group of people that ruin it. We should still pledge to respect this country in spite of the "bad apples" in it.
It bothers me when anyone says they hate this country or the flag or anything that she has stood for for the last 233 years. Either help make it better or leave.

Gah.
No, Im fine with the country as well (well not how its going but I get what you mean.)
What I meant was people have told me to get over myself, the "to the flag" part means "to the country"..but thats NOT what you are saying, you are literally pledging to the flag.
If it were to the country, Id be fine with it. but its not.
 

ItalianScallion

Harley Rider
Gah.
No, Im fine with the country as well (well not how its going but I get what you mean.)
What I meant was people have told me to get over myself, the "to the flag" part means "to the country"..but thats NOT what you are saying, you are literally pledging to the flag.
If it were to the country, Id be fine with it. but its not.
Mindy, Mindy, Mindy. :lmao:
The flag is a separate entity. "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the REPUBLIC FOR WHICH IT STANDS".... You are pledging to the flag and the country also, so there is a reason for saying: "to the flag" but no need to drag this out.
Nice to meet you!
 

mindy

New Member
Mindy, Mindy, Mindy. :lmao:
The flag is a separate entity. "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the REPUBLIC FOR WHICH IT STANDS".... You are pledging to the flag and the country also, so there is a reason for saying: "to the flag" but no need to drag this out.
Nice to meet you!

Okay, think Im an idiot, thats fine.

the "to the flag AND" makes it that youre pledging to the flag!! Yes theyre separate things, the flag and the country, and theyre making people pledge TO the flag!!

Nice to meet you too! lol
 

glitch

Devil's Advocate
Coming from you, the "devils child" says it all. What an ignorant statement that is. Anyone can see the difference in the schools and society since the removal of God from most them. The OP asked why and it was answered. Sorry that you don't agree but you are aptly named.

:yay: There is another BIG problem. We've allowed our government to kiss the a$$e$ of those foreigners and now AMERICAN PATRIOTISM is at an all time low! So, if they don't want to say the pledge, GO BACK TO YOUR HOME COUNTRY AND PLEDGE TO IT! This is what we do in America. You don't like it? BEAT IT! Don't get me started on patriotism; that's way off topic.

Oh, so you can babble on but we can't? Typical liberal!

You are seriously misguided & lost my friend. Ray Charles can see better than you can.

Devil's child? Don't know where you got that one. It says Devil's Advocate, which is completely different. As for me being misguided, well, I guess we'll have to wait and see on that one. And finally, to call psychology "babble" just shows how ignorant you really are. Call me what you wish, it's never bothered me. I've dealt with the overly-religious my entire life. Bottom line, I'm glad religion is gone from schools. I just wish it was gone from the rest of society as well. It served its purpose in the Dark Ages. We, as a society, needed something to believe in. In today's society of enlightened thinking it serves no other purpose than to fracture our already fragile social order.
 

Zguy28

New Member
You've got to be kidding me? You're actually going to sit there and say that those fights were the result of a lack of religion? Morals can be taught without religion. To believe otherwise is just self-inflicted ignorance. Those children need discipline, not religion.

In fact, I find it hilarious that anyone would ever attempt to equate religious values with a lack of violence. A quick look at the history books will tell you that religion has been the cause of more violence than any other factor, maybe even all other factors combined. When people stop slaughtering one another over something as ridiculous as an invisible, all-powerful man in the sky you can talk. Until then, you're just being hypocritical.
I disagree. Corrolation does not equal causation.

Greed (or covetousness, whichever you prefer) is the cause of most violence. Party A has something Party B wants. Violence inevitably ensues.
 

glitch

Devil's Advocate
I disagree. Corrolation does not equal causation.

Greed (or covetousness, whichever you prefer) is the cause of most violence. Party A has something Party B wants. Violence inevitably ensues.

For future reference it's spelled; correlation...with an e. And while correlation doesn't 'prove' causation, a strong correlation does have meaning. I'd say there was a pretty strong correlation, historically speaking, between religion and violence.

And I disagree, the Inquisition, as an example, wasn't about greed. The catholic church was attempting to purge the world of evil, meaning people who didn't see eye to eye with their doctrine.
 
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twinoaks207

Having Fun!
With all due respect, the "villian" is really not the IDEA law, but the way the states, and the individual Local Education Agencys (school districts) implement the IDEA law.

Again, with all due respect-that is not the reason the IDEA law was enacted nor intended to be implemented. Speaking as a mom with a child in Special Ed, I can say that he is not getting a "distraction-free" educational environment. Believe me when I say this, he could certainly use it because he is highly distractible, but that's not what IDEA is supposed to be for. And going back as long as I can remember, it has never been the case that his education was given more rights than the majority of students in any of his mainstream classes.

I'd sure like to know more about this particular situation. But unless you are part of the IEP process, there isn't really any way to know the exact diagnosis of a student & what their disability is.

Thanks you for taking the time to post all of the info from IDEA.

My particular post was referring to ED students. This is a population that I chose to work with for close to 20 years. They are an extremely difficult group to work with as their disability often exhibits behaviorally. I sat in many IEP meetings where we were unable to place the child in an appropriate placement for their disability because of the FAPE requirement and the necessity to provide placements in order of LRE (least restrictive environment). I sat at many a table where there was years and years of experience saying that the child needed a more restrictive placement to guarantee the safety of not only the special needs child, but the other children also, to no avail. We were unable to make the appropriate placement because a lesser restrictive environment hadn't been tried first. In short, we had to set the child up for failure before we could get them what they needed. AND, we had to place other children at risk of personal harm while doing so. The rights of the other children in that less restrictive environment did not matter. It did not matter that we were also setting them up to possibly be hit, kicked, bullied or abused because our student had difficulty controlling those behaviors. All the while knowing that the school administration had limited options in dealing with these children's behaviors because they could be considered "manifestations of the disability". Perhaps I should have clarified myself further to say that I was discussing Ed students and LRE but I felt that was getting a little bit technical for the average forum audience.

I fully support inclusion for the majority of special needs students students. I just happen to believe that ED students, because their disability can negatively impact the welfare of other students, need to be considered a little bit differently in order to help them get the help that they need.

Hope this clarifies things.
 

Bann

Doris Day meets Lady Gaga
PREMO Member
It's due largely to the inability of administration to do anything about the problem kids. I've seen the same thing happen in SMCPS. The kid has a label, like ED/OD, and that keeps the school from expelling him...no matter what. They're only alternative is to send him to their ALC, if they even have one. And that's even limited to 10 kids a year, per school. So, if you really want this to change you need to lobby to empower the administration at schools.

Believe it or not, the fault is the parent's. When a child is asking to get suspended because, "my parents won't do nothin'", it's hard for the administrators to enforce the rules. It's sad but true.

Personally, I believe all teachers should receive ABA (Applied Behavior Analysis) training to help them deal with some of these problem children. Effective behavioral interventions in the classroom can make all the difference in the world.

Bottom line though, you're right. Until we get the support we need from the parents and more importantly, MSDE, the kids who want to learn are going to continue to suffer.

Administrators are sometimes at fault but the real villain is various federal laws requiring free and appropriate public education (IDEA comes to mind). A student with an IEP can be suspended for more than 10 days, or even expelled, but it takes a whole other set of meetings and findings, which is where many administrators drop the ball.

The bottom line is that the rights of an officially identified special education student (per federal law - IDEA) to a "free and appropriate public education" often outweigh the rights of the majority of the children to have a distraction-free educational environment. There are no federal laws that safeguard "normal" children.

Correct, it's called a manifestation hearing. The problem, especially with children with ED/OD, is that it's extremely hard to prove that their actions were not a result of their 'disability/diagnosis'. By definition anytime a child with OD refuses to comply it's a 'manifestation' of their diagnosis. It's complete and total BS in my opinion.

Thanks you for taking the time to post all of the info from IDEA.

My particular post was referring to ED students. This is a population that I chose to work with for close to 20 years. They are an extremely difficult group to work with as their disability often exhibits behaviorally. I sat in many IEP meetings where we were unable to place the child in an appropriate placement for their disability because of the FAPE requirement and the necessity to provide placements in order of LRE (least restrictive environment). I sat at many a table where there was years and years of experience saying that the child needed a more restrictive placement to guarantee the safety of not only the special needs child, but the other children also, to no avail. We were unable to make the appropriate placement because a lesser restrictive environment hadn't been tried first. In short, we had to set the child up for failure before we could get them what they needed. AND, we had to place other children at risk of personal harm while doing so. The rights of the other children in that less restrictive environment did not matter. It did not matter that we were also setting them up to possibly be hit, kicked, bullied or abused because our student had difficulty controlling those behaviors. All the while knowing that the school administration had limited options in dealing with these children's behaviors because they could be considered "manifestations of the disability". Perhaps I should have clarified myself further to say that I was discussing Ed students and LRE but I felt that was getting a little bit technical for the average forum audience.

I fully support inclusion for the majority of special needs students students. I just happen to believe that ED students, because their disability can negatively impact the welfare of other students, need to be considered a little bit differently in order to help them get the help that they need.

Hope this clarifies things.


It does. And I agree that the ED/OD population of SpEd students is a very challenging one. From the posts I was following, it wasn't clear to me that those were the only students to which you were referring. Probably because Devil's Advocate's posts tended to jump around a little. (no offense, but they went from blaming IDEA laws to the parents, etc.)

Nothing that is perfect, I will agree. But the laws are in place to help the majority. The majority of the SpEd students in this country are helped by those laws - when they weren't just 30 years ago. (remember the basement of your school? That's generally where they were "contained". )

But it's good to have the discussions and enlighten people. I appreciate all points of view, and always try to share my experiences with the system in a positive way. The reason I try to post the regulations and laws where I can is because most of the mainstream public do not know them and aren't even aware they exist. I might be helping one lurker parent who is going through he** and that's worth it to me.
 
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