A Democratic Iraq?
- Thread starter Starman3000m
- Start date
JPC sr
James P. Cusick Sr.
Scofflaw and Personal Responsibility.
Not one quote given (though poorly translated) has anything to do with fighting Christians or Jews as a directive from the Quran.
Link for Quran text, verse, surah HERE.
But the Muslims do have a right to protect themselves from the unbelievers and from violent attack.
That poster's fear is only justified because he is an unbeliever and preaches violence against Islam,
so "Sm" is justified in his fears but Islam is my sister religion and I have no fear of them.
Starman3000m said:
Not one quote given (though poorly translated) has anything to do with fighting Christians or Jews as a directive from the Quran.Link for Quran text, verse, surah HERE.
But the Muslims do have a right to protect themselves from the unbelievers and from violent attack.
That poster's fear is only justified because he is an unbeliever and preaches violence against Islam,
so "Sm" is justified in his fears but Islam is my sister religion and I have no fear of them.
PsyOps
Pixelated
JPC sr said:
So by doing so they bomb busses, pizza parlors, weddings, etc... The majority of their targets are on unarmed, innocent civilians. Is this what you call protecting yourself?
My fear is having someone like you in power to tear down our defense of such dispicable acts against innocents. You defend the indefensible.
Sister religion? They don't care one peep about you. They will light their bomb off right next to you without a second thought. You call that a sister religion?
You mean like the Democrats in Congress now?PsyOps said:
JPC sr
James P. Cusick Sr.
Scofflaw and Personal Responsibility.
The criminal element in Iraq is an American creation as it was not there prior to the occupation.
Plus the Iraq criminals against Iraqis citizens are not the same as those that fight the occupation of their Country,
and the difference is known because the American troops defend themselves and not the Iraq population. Yes, Islam is a great sister religion to me.
I believe they do care much about me and us but even if not then I still care much about them.
PsyOps said:
The criminal element in Iraq is an American creation as it was not there prior to the occupation.Plus the Iraq criminals against Iraqis citizens are not the same as those that fight the occupation of their Country,
and the difference is known because the American troops defend themselves and not the Iraq population.
PsyOps said:
Yes, Islam is a great sister religion to me.I believe they do care much about me and us but even if not then I still care much about them.
Starman3000m
New Member
( JPC's comments responding to Starman Post of August 16, 2007 10:34 PM Post #19 )
Gee, JPC sr, I'm beginning to think you have not thoroughly read this translation that we will call your own Qur'an! The "link" that you provided was not completely operable but I was able to get a few chapters to view. Herein is what I found:
Your Qur’an does in-fact mention that action terror and punishment is to be bestowed upon “unbelievers” – prohibits Muslims from befriending Jews and Christians and calls on “humiliating punishments” to be waged against those who do not accept Al’lah and Muhammad, ie. non-Muslims:
[3:151] We will throw terror into the hearts of those who disbelieved, since they set up besides GOD powerless idols. Their destiny is Hell; what a miserable abode for the transgressors!
[5:51] O you who believe, do not take certain Jews and Christians as allies; these are allies of one another. Those among you who ally themselves with these belong with them. GOD does not guide the transgressors.
[5:33] The just retribution for those who fight GOD and His messenger, and commit horrendous crimes, is to be killed, or crucified, or to have their hands and feet cut off on alternate sides, or to be banished from the land. This is to humiliate them in this life, then they suffer a far worse retribution in the Hereafter.
Your Qur’an also encourages jihad and martyrdom against the “unbelievers.” These verses are exactly why Muslims feel justified in commiting acts of terror and suicide bombings whether individually, as a small group or as a terror cell operating under the command of known terror organizations.
4:71] O you who believe, you shall remain alert, and mobilize as individuals, or mobilize all together.
[4:72] Surely, there are those among you who would drag their feet, then, if a setback afflicts you, they would say, "GOD has blessed me that I was not martyred with them."
[4:73] But if you attain a blessing from GOD, they would say, as if no friendship ever existed between you and them, "I wish I was with them, so I could share in such a great victory."
[4:74] Those who readily fight in the cause of GOD are those who forsake this world in favor of the Hereafter. Whoever fights in the cause of GOD, then gets killed, or attains victory, we will surely grant him a great recompense.
To top it off, your Qur’an states that Adam was a “temporary god” and that Al’lah commanded the angels to bow down to Adam:
[2:30] Recall that your Lord said to the angels, "I am placing a representative (a temporary god) on Earth." They said, "Will You place therein one who will spread evil therein and shed blood, while we sing Your praises, glorify You, and uphold Your absolute authority?" He said, "I know what you do not know."
[2:31] He taught Adam all the names then presented them to the angels, saying, "Give me the names of these, if you are right."
[2:32] They said, "Be You glorified, we have no knowledge, except that which You have taught us. You are the Omniscient, Most Wise."
[2:33] He said, "O Adam, tell them their names." When he told them their names, He said, "Did I not tell you that I know the secrets of the heavens and the earth? I know what you declare, and what you conceal."
[2:34] When we said to the angels, "Fall prostrate before Adam," they fell prostrate, except Satan; he refused, was too arrogant, and a disbeliever.
Sorry, but Al'lah is definitely NOT the God of the Holy Bible and Islam really cannot be considered a "sister religion" to the Judeo-Christian faiths.
That is why Islam cannot and never will have peaceful dealings with Jews, Christians, all other non-Muslims including Atheists and non-Islamic societies. Islam and Democracy Do Not Mix.
JPC sr said:
Link for Quran text, verse, surah HERE.
But the Muslims do have a right to protect themselves from the unbelievers and from violent attack.
That poster's fear is only justified because he is an unbeliever and preaches violence against Islam,
so "Sm" is justified in his fears but Islam is my sister religion and I have no fear of them.
Gee, JPC sr, I'm beginning to think you have not thoroughly read this translation that we will call your own Qur'an! The "link" that you provided was not completely operable but I was able to get a few chapters to view. Herein is what I found:
Your Qur’an does in-fact mention that action terror and punishment is to be bestowed upon “unbelievers” – prohibits Muslims from befriending Jews and Christians and calls on “humiliating punishments” to be waged against those who do not accept Al’lah and Muhammad, ie. non-Muslims:
[3:151] We will throw terror into the hearts of those who disbelieved, since they set up besides GOD powerless idols. Their destiny is Hell; what a miserable abode for the transgressors!
[5:51] O you who believe, do not take certain Jews and Christians as allies; these are allies of one another. Those among you who ally themselves with these belong with them. GOD does not guide the transgressors.
[5:33] The just retribution for those who fight GOD and His messenger, and commit horrendous crimes, is to be killed, or crucified, or to have their hands and feet cut off on alternate sides, or to be banished from the land. This is to humiliate them in this life, then they suffer a far worse retribution in the Hereafter.
Your Qur’an also encourages jihad and martyrdom against the “unbelievers.” These verses are exactly why Muslims feel justified in commiting acts of terror and suicide bombings whether individually, as a small group or as a terror cell operating under the command of known terror organizations.
4:71] O you who believe, you shall remain alert, and mobilize as individuals, or mobilize all together.
[4:72] Surely, there are those among you who would drag their feet, then, if a setback afflicts you, they would say, "GOD has blessed me that I was not martyred with them."
[4:73] But if you attain a blessing from GOD, they would say, as if no friendship ever existed between you and them, "I wish I was with them, so I could share in such a great victory."
[4:74] Those who readily fight in the cause of GOD are those who forsake this world in favor of the Hereafter. Whoever fights in the cause of GOD, then gets killed, or attains victory, we will surely grant him a great recompense.
To top it off, your Qur’an states that Adam was a “temporary god” and that Al’lah commanded the angels to bow down to Adam:
[2:30] Recall that your Lord said to the angels, "I am placing a representative (a temporary god) on Earth." They said, "Will You place therein one who will spread evil therein and shed blood, while we sing Your praises, glorify You, and uphold Your absolute authority?" He said, "I know what you do not know."
[2:31] He taught Adam all the names then presented them to the angels, saying, "Give me the names of these, if you are right."
[2:32] They said, "Be You glorified, we have no knowledge, except that which You have taught us. You are the Omniscient, Most Wise."
[2:33] He said, "O Adam, tell them their names." When he told them their names, He said, "Did I not tell you that I know the secrets of the heavens and the earth? I know what you declare, and what you conceal."
[2:34] When we said to the angels, "Fall prostrate before Adam," they fell prostrate, except Satan; he refused, was too arrogant, and a disbeliever.
Sorry, but Al'lah is definitely NOT the God of the Holy Bible and Islam really cannot be considered a "sister religion" to the Judeo-Christian faiths.
That is why Islam cannot and never will have peaceful dealings with Jews, Christians, all other non-Muslims including Atheists and non-Islamic societies. Islam and Democracy Do Not Mix.
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R
RadioPatrol
Guest
like most liberals ...........
it all to convent to ignore that which does not support their argument - look @ global warming ...........
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Starman3000m said:
it all to convent to ignore that which does not support their argument - look @ global warming ...........
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R
RadioPatrol
Guest
Linky
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R
RadioPatrol
Guest
You may Now Return to Your Regularly Scheduled Debate About Democracy and Islam ....
JPC sr
James P. Cusick Sr.
Scofflaw and Personal Responsibility.
I believe the point that is being left out is that the so-called Chistians and Jews are doing wrong and are committing horrible sins.
Thus the Muslims of Islam are trying to do right and fighting against the evil wrongs of the so-called Christians and the Jews.
Therefore the Islamist Holy warrings are religiously justified against the unbelievers (infidels).
So if the USA and its sinful allies would do right then the Muslim Holy war would end.
But for now the Quran and Islam gives us all the duty to fight back against the violent aggression and fight back against the immoral pressures coming from the so-called Christians and Jews that are really just infidels.
Starman3000m said:
I believe the point that is being left out is that the so-called Chistians and Jews are doing wrong and are committing horrible sins.Thus the Muslims of Islam are trying to do right and fighting against the evil wrongs of the so-called Christians and the Jews.
Therefore the Islamist Holy warrings are religiously justified against the unbelievers (infidels).
So if the USA and its sinful allies would do right then the Muslim Holy war would end.
But for now the Quran and Islam gives us all the duty to fight back against the violent aggression and fight back against the immoral pressures coming from the so-called Christians and Jews that are really just infidels.
You don't have a clue.JPC sr said:
Thus the Muslims of Islam are trying to do right and fighting against the evil wrongs of the so-called Christians and the Jews.
Therefore the Islamist Holy warrings are religiously justified against the unbelievers (infidels).
So if the USA and its sinful allies would do right then the Muslim Holy war would end.
But for now the Quran and Islam gives us all the duty to fight back against the violent aggression and fight back against the immoral pressures coming from the so-called Christians and Jews that are really just infidels.
The Muslims will not quit warring against others until the entire world worships Allah, the god of the Qur'an, and not the God of the Bible or for that matter, any other god or entity. An Islamic zealot would cut your head off in a heartbeat if they demanded you accept Allah and denounce Jesus as Savior and Lord. But knowing your expressed belief from reading your posts and talking with you in person, you would probably capitulate.
JPC sr
James P. Cusick Sr.
Scofflaw and Personal Responsibility.
I have no fear of Muslims or of Islam and I like the Quran.
Even the "God" of the Bible goes by many different names in the Bible,
so having the God going by many names in the whole world is expected and reasonable.
2ndAmendment said:
I have no fear of Muslims or of Islam and I like the Quran.Even the "God" of the Bible goes by many different names in the Bible,
so having the God going by many names in the whole world is expected and reasonable.
Starman3000m
New Member
JPC sr said:
Even the "God" of the Bible goes by many different names in the Bible,
so having the God going by many names in the whole world is expected and reasonable.
C'mon, JPC sr. Let's get real. The term "God" is a generic term for any deity! Additionally, referring to a God by many names is one thing but defining who GOD Really Is becomes a completely different matter.
This has been stated before and it appears that you are yet unable to understand that the "God" of the Qur'an which Muslims worship is NOT the God of The Holy Bible:
Yahweh NEVER commanded His angels to bow down prostrate to Adam.
Al’lah Did: Qur’an: (002.034) (007.011)
Yahweh NEVER authorized mankind to honor and kiss a stone. (Ka'ba)
Muhammad Did and Muslims still do to this day.
Yahweh NEVER authorized men to beat their wives.
Al’lah Did: Qur’an: (004.032)
Yahweh NEVER authorized His prophets to have multiple wives- as many as the prophet desired, nor did Yahweh authorize men to have up to four wives.
Al’lah Did: Qur’an: (033.050) (004.003)
Yahweh NEVER promised a “paradise” filled with dark-eyed voluptuous women (virgins) as a “reward” to the “righteous.”
Al’lah Did: Qur’an: (037.040-.049) (056.035-.036) (078.031-.033)
Yahweh NEVER said that the word of two women was equal to the word of one man and that women comprised the greatest amount of residents in hell.
Muhammad Did: (Sahih Bukhari: Vol. 7, Book 62, No. 126)
And then there are major differences between how Jesus of the Holy Bible taught compared to what Muhammad taught:
Y'shua (Isa’ / Jesus) taught:
1. Love God and fellow man - even those who may be your enemy.
(Matthew 5:44) (Matthew 22:37-40)
2. Forgive others. Do not seek retribution and abide no longer by the rule of "an eye for an eye" (Matthew 5:28-48) (Matthew 6:15)
3. Put away the sword, for those who live by the sword shall die by the sword. (Matthew 26:52)
4. Blessed are the peacemakers for they shall be called "The Children of God."
(Matthew 5:9)
5. “I Am The Way, The Truth and The Life; no man can come to The Father except through Me.” (John 14:6)
Muhammad taught:
1. Oh slaves of Allah (Muslims) Obey Allah and invite all mankind to embrace Islam. Strike terror into the hearts of "Unbelievers" and slay those who do not accept Allah and smite the necks of those who do not believe that Muhammad is the prophet of Allah. (Qur’an:047.004)
(Sunan Abu-Dawud, Book 14, Number 2635, Narrated Anas ibn Malik)
2. It is legal to seek vengeance and retribution in like manner: "A life for a life" and a Muslim who shall abandon Islam shall be killed.(Imam An-Nawawi's Book - Hadith #14)
(Sahih Bukhari: Volume 6, Book 61, Number 577, Narrated 'Ali)
3. Paradise is found "Under the Shades of Swords."
(Sahih Bukhari: Volume 4, Book 52, Number 210, Narrated Salim Abu An-Nadr)
4. There cannot be peace until Islam rules over all as the true religion on earth. This earth has been made only for Muslims to inherit and Muslims are commanded to fight until "faith in Allah prevails everywhere."
(Qur'an: 008.039)
(Sahih Bukhari: Volume 1, Book 8, Number 429, Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah)
5. "It is obligatory to love the prophet more than the members of one's household: one's child, father or even the whole of humanity"
(Sahih Muslim: Book 001, Chapter 17: Number 0070)
Conclusion: There is Only One God and Only One Truth:
Al'lah is NOT the God of the Holy Bible and Muslims are worshipping a different deity.
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JPC sr
James P. Cusick Sr.
Scofflaw and Personal Responsibility.
I do not quite agree with you but I say this is the most inteligent and informed post that I have read of yours.
So my compliments to you and I hope it was I that brought it out.
I agree the term "God" is generic and it does not even mean the same as the Bible name from Hebrew or Greek or Aramaic and "God" comes from the idolators as each idol is a god.
Saying the Quran God is not the Bible God based on the message in each book is misleading.
The Quran was a Bible for the Arabic peoples as God (Yahweh Eloheem) was giving a message directed to the Arab world and not for the whites or the oriental people.
The old Testiment was written to the people of Israel and to no one else.
The new Testiment has Jesus (Yesu) for all people but given to only a few.
The Chinese have the Tao Te Ching and it tells of righteousness in it too, and its text tell of the same God and savior as does all the others but in a different way.
If you read a biography of Muhammed then it explains much because Arabia was a horrible place of cruelty and horrid debauchery and it took force to brake that strangle hold and free the people from such great evil into the light of Islam.
I see God in that violence just as I see God on D-Day France where the bloody sword was used to end an evil and change the course of history.
The Bible and the Quran do have the same God but with a different message for a different people.
By viewing it in that light then the Quran is a beautiful work of a powerful Creator.
I found it so for me when I first learned the Noble Truths from the Buddha as truth is always a sure sign of the living God.
If we see God as the father (or mother) to his children then a parent must tell an older child one thing and a younger child a different message. A parent must tell a female child a different message then to a male child, and a parent must tell a roudy child a stern message but the passive child gets a more pleasant message.
That is why the message of the Quran is a hard message to any Muslim and if we or anyone defies the men of God then we will catch hell.
When the Muslim calls the Americans as "infidels" then it means they are saying that we have been unfaithful to the Christianity, because infidel does not mean heathen or unbeliever.
Islam wants justice and the radical Muslims demand justice and I hope they get it.
Starman3000m said:
I do not quite agree with you but I say this is the most inteligent and informed post that I have read of yours.So my compliments to you and I hope it was I that brought it out.
I agree the term "God" is generic and it does not even mean the same as the Bible name from Hebrew or Greek or Aramaic and "God" comes from the idolators as each idol is a god.
Saying the Quran God is not the Bible God based on the message in each book is misleading.
The Quran was a Bible for the Arabic peoples as God (Yahweh Eloheem) was giving a message directed to the Arab world and not for the whites or the oriental people.
The old Testiment was written to the people of Israel and to no one else.
The new Testiment has Jesus (Yesu) for all people but given to only a few.
The Chinese have the Tao Te Ching and it tells of righteousness in it too, and its text tell of the same God and savior as does all the others but in a different way.
If you read a biography of Muhammed then it explains much because Arabia was a horrible place of cruelty and horrid debauchery and it took force to brake that strangle hold and free the people from such great evil into the light of Islam.
I see God in that violence just as I see God on D-Day France where the bloody sword was used to end an evil and change the course of history.
The Bible and the Quran do have the same God but with a different message for a different people.
By viewing it in that light then the Quran is a beautiful work of a powerful Creator.
I found it so for me when I first learned the Noble Truths from the Buddha as truth is always a sure sign of the living God.
If we see God as the father (or mother) to his children then a parent must tell an older child one thing and a younger child a different message. A parent must tell a female child a different message then to a male child, and a parent must tell a roudy child a stern message but the passive child gets a more pleasant message.
That is why the message of the Quran is a hard message to any Muslim and if we or anyone defies the men of God then we will catch hell.
When the Muslim calls the Americans as "infidels" then it means they are saying that we have been unfaithful to the Christianity, because infidel does not mean heathen or unbeliever.
Islam wants justice and the radical Muslims demand justice and I hope they get it.
PsyOps
Pixelated
JPC sr said:
Actually the criminal element that WAS in Iraq prior to the invasion was worse. It was called the Saddam regime, and it butchered hundreds of thousands of innocent people.
They are the same people JPC. Your belief that our troops aren’t out there on the streets defending Iraqis is blatantly wrong. Our troops have helped build schools, Mosques, homes, businesses. They drive the streets handing out candy, toys and other things to smiling children. They are greeted with welcome and thankful hands by Iraqis. There are plenty of websites out there showing this stuff; you just chose to ignore it because you have an agenda that aims to castigate this administration, our military, shed every ounce of negative light on this war, and appease the most radical of your “sister religion”.
This_person
Well-Known Member
{....ohpleaseohpleaseohpleaseohpleaseohpleaseohpleaseohpleaseohpleaseohpleaseohplease....}PsyOps said:
Larry Gude
Strung Out
Ok...
...folks, he's got a point there.
JPC sr said:The USA is a democratic republic and that protects us from much of the dangers of a true democracy.
...folks, he's got a point there.
Larry Gude
Strung Out
Once...
...does not a full set of marbles make.
Nucklesack said:Did you have to say that out loud? now he's got a new signature
...does not a full set of marbles make.