A Democratic Iraq?

[Larry Gude]

Ok...

Actually the criminal element that WAS in Iraq prior to the invasion was worse. It was called the Saddam regime, and it butchered hundreds of thousands of innocent people.

...well if you're going to be all nit picky and count that...

 

[PsyOps]

DO you really want to get into this AGAIN?

• Jews kiss the wailing wall, why arent you making fun of them? You are commanded to not step foot on (and Honor) Mount Sinai .
• There are many instances of the Bible, praising men who have Multiple Wives, either the actions those men complete, or their involvement in some part of the parable. The Bible does not cast those men in a negative light, and uses them as examples of Goodness.
• Sex with their Daughters
• MANY MANY passages about Women must be subservant to men.
• The Bible commands you to stone to death women who are Raped but dont cry loud enough
  
  [*] Since your so knowledgeable, exactly how many times, and for what offenses, does the Quran command death by stoning?​
• Unbelievers - is how the Q'uran deals with Unbelievers really that different than how the Bible treats them? (we are talking about passages in the books, not how a Fanatic, say Milosevic, handled the Muslims in Serbia)

This is where you, 2ndamendment and others run into Problems.

Yes you can pull favorable passages out of the Bible, but that means you had to ignore the unfavorable ones. You do the opposite with the Q'uran, you pull unfavorable passages out, and ignore the favorable ones.

With your constant mischaracterization of the belief (this is the religion, not the Fanatics that bastardize it), if you were honest and as knowledgeable as you think, you'd have to be uncomfortable with the similiarities between your Belief and the one you decry so often.

Islam desires to rule the earth, through violent means, as stated above. Christianity states that peace is is obtained in heaven and we should reject all that is of this earth.

Islam states that paradise is obtained "Under the Shades of Swords". In Christianity paradise is found in heaven.

Islam deals with unbelievers through death at their own hands. Christianity deals with unbelievers through love while allowing God to be the judge.

Keep in mind that Jesus talked about anything of this earth is not of God; in that vein Islam desires to the rule the earth.

What are these "unfavorable" passages from the Bible? Now be careful, this question comes in the context of Christianity, not Old Testament thinking.

 

[2ndAmendment]

You and Your are the Proverbial.

Where does it state you no longer follow the Old Testament? Now be carefull, this answer comes in the context that Jesus states he was here to fullfill, not replace, the laws of the Prophets (Old Testament) Matthew 5:17-18.

The Old Testament, is the prequel it is the FOUNDATION of your beliefs.

The New Testament is the sequel, it tweaks the laws but the laws are still there. The New Testament has laws that modified some of the Old Testament's ones. But not all the Old Testament laws are covered, does that mean you dont follow any of them?

With that in mind, do you really want to compare the 2 beliefs?

You know this has been around and around and you always post the same junk out of context.

Someone needs to put a fork in you, because you're done.

I have resisted putting you on ignore, but now you join the ranks of Fred Flash and midnight. Bye. I shall not see your drivel again unless someone quotes it.

 

[2ndAmendment]

Did Nucklesack says something? Ah...refreshing.

 

[JPC sr]

Scofflaw and Personal Responsibility.

...does not a full set of marbles make.

 

[Starman3000m]

DO you really want to get into this AGAIN?

• Jews kiss the wailing wall, why arent you making fun of them? You are commanded to not step foot on (and Honor) Mount Sinai .
• There are many instances of the Bible, praising men who have Multiple Wives, either the actions those men complete, or their involvement in some part of the parable. The Bible does not cast those men in a negative light, and uses them as examples of Goodness.
• Sex with their Daughters
• MANY MANY passages about Women must be subservant to men.
• The Bible commands you to stone to death women who are Raped but dont cry loud enough
  
  [*] Since your so knowledgeable, exactly how many times, and for what offenses, does the Quran command death by stoning?​
• Unbelievers - is how the Q'uran deals with Unbelievers really that different than how the Bible treats them? (we are talking about passages in the books, not how a Fanatic, say Milosevic, handled the Muslims in Serbia)

This is where you, 2ndamendment and others run into Problems.

Yes you can pull favorable passages out of the Bible, but that means you had to ignore the unfavorable ones. You do the opposite with the Q'uran, you pull unfavorable passages out, and ignore the favorable ones.

With your constant mischaracterization of the belief (this is the religion, not the Fanatics that bastardize it), if you were honest and as knowledgeable as you think, you'd have to be uncomfortable with the similiarities between your Belief and the one you decry so often.

Hi Nucklesack,

Yes, I have read the Old Testament regarding stoning and this is exactly where Muhammad got the idea from. The Jews no longer practice it although it is still in the Talmud as a form of punishment.

As you know, stoning women to death for committing adultery was originally a Jewish (Talmud) law and is today enforced by Islamic law (Sharia).

However, it was Jesus Christ of Nazareth who found forgiveness for such a woman brought before him whereby He stated: "…He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. .. Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee? She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more." (The New Testament, John 8:1-12)

BTW: Old Testament refers to the "Old Covenant" which this world no longer is bound to. (long story short- King Solomon broke the original Covenant between the Jewish people and Yahweh).

This brings us to the New Testament; the Messianic fulfillment of Y’shua HaMashiach (Jesus the Messiah). This refers to the NEW COVENANT between God and mankind which neither Orthodox Jews nor Muslims accept. Both reject the Atoning Blood of Christ as God’s Plan of Salvation. Remember also that "Christianity" is a Jewish sect; the 12 Apostles - All Jews and the first several thousand followers of Y'shua HaMashiach were All Jewish men, women and children! This group of Jews believed upon Jesus' claim that He was in fact The Son of God who came to offer Himself as the Sacrificial Lamb of God. In other words: God Did For Mankind what Abraham Was Going To Do For God!

Meanwhile, in many ways Orthodox Jews are at a standstill with the Mosaic/Talmudic Laws because their Holy Temple (Third Temple of God) has not been built yet while Muslims still practice Old Testament Laws that Muhammad derived from Judaic tradition.

Also, Since you asked:

Islam: Stoning for Adultry and Fornication:

Muhammad allows a woman who became pregnant out of wedlock the time to give birth to her child then orders her to be stoned to death as punishment for fornication:

"A woman belonging to the tribe of Juhaynah (according to the version of Aban) came to the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and said that she had committed fornication and that she was pregnant. The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) called her guardian.
Then the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) said to him: Be good to her, and when she bears a child, bring her (to me). When she gave birth to the child, he brought her (to him). The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) gave orders regarding her, and her clothes were tied to her. He then commanded regarding her and she was stoned to death. He commanded the people (to pray) and they prayed over her."
( Sunan Abu-Dawud, Book 38, Number 4426, Narrated Imran ibn Husayn )



Jews to be stoned to death for adultery
Source: http://wings.buffalo.edu/sa/muslim/isl/hadith1.html#ROW

341.Abdullah b. Umar reported that a Jew and a Jewess were brought to Allah's Messenger (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) who had committed adultery. Allah's Messenger (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) came to the Jews and said: What do you find in Torah for one who commits adultery? They said: We darken their faces and make them ride on the donkey with their faces turned to the opposite direction (and their backs touching each other) and then they are taken round (the city). He said: Bring the Torah if you are truthful. They brought it and recited it until when they came to the verse pertaining to stoning, the person who was reading placed his hand on the verse pertaining to stoning, and read (only that which was) between his hands and what was subsequent to that. Abdullah b. Salam who was at that time with the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said: Command him (the reciter) to lift his hand. He lifted his hand and there was, underneath that, the verse pertaining to stoning. Allah's Messenger (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) pronounced judgement about both of them and they were stoned. Abdullah b. Umar said: I was one of those who stoned them, and I saw him (the Jew) protecting her (the Jewess with his body). (Muslim). (The Penal Law of Islam by Muhammad Iqbal Siddiqi).

 

[Starman3000m]

Hi JPC sr,

Thank you for your previous compliments on my post but I cannot take credit for what is Truth. I simply outlined a comparison relative to the theological differences between Al'lah of Islam and Yahweh of the Judeo-Christian faiths and between Muhammad and Y'shua HaMashiach (Jesus the Messiah).

It is because of these and many other difference that Muslims are unable to negotiate any peace with Jews, Christians and non-Islamic societies. The fundamental Islamic message to dominate the world and convert all peple to Islam is the motivating factor that calls for the total destruction of Israel and for striking terror against non-Muslims at all cost including martyrdom.

:When the Muslim calls the Americans as "infidels" then it means they are saying that we have been unfaithful to the Christianity, because infidel does not mean heathen or unbeliever.

Islam wants justice and the radical Muslims demand justice and I hope they get it.

So, in other words, Islam legislates morality upon this earth and all Muslims are obligated to be the "enforcers" by persecuting and murdering those who are deemed "unjust"?

Hmmmm...where would this leave someone like Nucklesack who is an Atheist and believes we are all wrong and that Islam is just as wrong as any other religion, according to his previous comments on another thread?

 

[JPC sr]

Scofflaw and Personal Responsibility.

It is because of these and many other difference that Muslims are unable to negotiate any peace with Jews, Christians and non-Islamic societies.

I have said this before but it can not be repeated to often,

the Muslims - even the fanatical terrorist Muslims have always been offering a peace plan and peace terms and it is the Christians and Jews and the USA that refuse to deal on any real grounds for peace.

The Muslims have every right to defend themselves from the immoral violent attacks against their people.

So, in other words, Islam legislates morality upon this earth and all Muslims are obligated to be the "enforcers" by persecuting and murdering those who are deemed "unjust"?

Murder is far from the only solution, but I would say it the job of true Christians and of Jews also to help the Muslims in bringing morality to this earth.

We need to stop fighting our Islamic bretheren and start helping to fight for justice and for right.

Hmmmm...where would this leave someone like Nucklesack who is an Atheist and believes we are all wrong and that Islam is just as wrong as any other religion, according to his previous comments on another thread?

In Islamic Countries they have Athiest and unbelievers and rebels there too.

The Muslims do not harm people for what they think or for petty offences.
But if any of us went there causing troubles then that is another issue.

The Christian missionaries have notoriously started to get political in every Country the Christians go.

 

[PsyOps]

You and Your are the Proverbial.

Where does it state you no longer follow the Old Testament? Now be carefull, this answer comes in the context that Jesus states he was here to fullfill, not replace, the laws of the Prophets (Old Testament) Matthew 5:17-18.

The Old Testament, is the prequel it is the FOUNDATION of your beliefs.

The New Testament is the sequel, it tweaks the laws but the laws are still there. The New Testament has laws that modified some of the Old Testament's ones. But not all the Old Testament laws are covered, does that mean you dont follow any of them?

With that in mind, do you really want to compare the 2 beliefs?

Where did I state that we were no longer required to follow the Old Testament?

My only reason for making the distinction between the Old and New Testaments was in the context of your claim that there are “unfavorable” passages in the bible. I wanted try to get you to clarify this. And I wanted to be careful not to misconstrue this in the light of the violence portrayed in the Old Testament and the peace that Jesus demands from us today.

 

[PsyOps]

I have said this before but it can not be repeated to often,

the Muslims - even the fanatical terrorist Muslims have always been offering a peace plan and peace terms and it is the Christians and Jews and the USA that refuse to deal on any real grounds for peace.

The Muslims have every right to defend themselves from the immoral violent attacks against their people. Murder is far from the only solution, but I would say it the job of true Christians and of Jews also to help the Muslims in bringing morality to this earth.

We need to stop fighting our Islamic bretheren and start helping to fight for justice and for right. In Islamic Countries they have Athiest and unbelievers and rebels there too.

The Muslims do not harm people for what they think or for petty offences.
But if any of us went there causing troubles then that is another issue.

The Christian missionaries have notoriously started to get political in every Country the Christians go.

I can come up with one word for this entire post: Appeasement!

 

[JPC sr]

Scofflaw and Personal Responsibility.

I can come up with one word for this entire post: Appeasement!

The idea of appeasement has been overly degraded, link HERE.

The 1938 appeasement of Hitler showed Hitler as the agressor and not that appeasement was wrong.

I would even say that the '38 appeasement showed the world that no peace with Hitler was possible and that is why the allies demanded an unconditional surrender to the end.

The appeasement exposed Hitler just as a lack of appeasement now exposes Bush as a war-monger.

 

[PsyOps]

The idea of appeasement has been overly degraded, link HERE.

The 1938 appeasement of Hitler showed Hitler as the agressor and not that appeasement was wrong.

I would even say that the '38 appeasement showed the world that no peace with Hitler was possible and that is why the allies demanded an unconditional surrender to the end.

The appeasement exposed Hitler just as a lack of appeasement now exposes Bush as a war-monger.

As in that GEICO caveman commercial: "uhhhhhh, WHAT?!"

 

[Midnightrider]

You know this has been around and around and you always post the same junk out of context.

Someone needs to put a fork in you, because you're done.

I have resisted putting you on ignore, but now you join the ranks of Fred Flash and midnight. Bye. I shall not see your drivel again unless someone quotes it.

Before long he wont have ANYBODY to debate and the religion forum will be ours by default.

:MrBurnsVoiceon:
Excellent.........
:MBVoff:

 

[PsyOps]

I have been waiting for you to pull this out, thanks.

The exact same verse can be used against Christians, with their history of violence and attrocities (and we are not talking the Crusades), now condeming an ENTIRE religion because of a small faction of Radicals.
Before you can condemn the ENTIRE religion because of what Radicals who bastardize the belief, make sure you (Christians) dont also have a problem yourself with Radicals.

How is that glass house?

And I’ve been waiting for this type of reply as well.

If not the Crusades, what is this “history of violence and atrocities” you speak of regarding Christians? And you call al Qaeda a small faction of radicals? Al Qaeda is a global organization. How can a small faction be everywhere? I’m sorry, but I’m not seeing “small factions” of Christians, on a near daily basis, going in busses, restaurants, weddings, and placing bombs on street corners blowing up innocents people by the dozens. Perhaps you can help me out here.

 

[Starman3000m]

The current Muslim "Laws"/Sharia for stoning are interpretations by man, based on the Hadith.

The Ahadith (plural) are all derived from Muhammad's interpretations of his "revelations" and responses to everyday interaction with people. Just because "stoning" is not in the Qur'an does not mean that it does not apply to required forms of Islamic capital punishment which comprise Shari'a. Each Hadith is an account of Muhammad's words and is regarded by Muslims as equal in weight as the words written in the Qur'an.

 

[Starman3000m]

That wasnt my question, but thanks for explaining how you had to pull from a different source.

No problem. Now you know that the Islamic theology/ideology is based on sources other than just the Qur'an and include the Sunnah and Ahadith - all referencing examples, mandates and obligations imposed upon Muslims by Al'lah and Muhammad. The Qur'an is NOT the sola scriptura of Islam.

I do hope you already knew that as well.

 

[PsyOps]

Al Qaeda is a small faction when you base it against the whole of the Muslim population. you know this, but are being disengenous.

No I’m not. Al Qaeda is a global network that hardly falls under the definition of a “small faction”.

Christian greatness :

I have no problem helping you out here, the IRA (what religion are they?)pretty much covered every example you listed above.

The IRA is not a global terrorist network. And that is a Christian on Christian conflict.

1930's-1940's German Nazi Movement - Peace and Love personified, especially for them Jews, they just LOOOOOOOOOVED them

Although Hitler invoked God in many instances (especially in Mein Kampf) I don't think you will find any time where he said he was doing what he was in the name of Jesus. So what God was he really referring to?

Serbia - Milosovic really really loved them Muslims (to death)

Another localized, non-global problem.

Abortion bombers - nuff said

I agree this abhorant behavior and doubt their faith. however, another localized, non-global problem.

Jonestown

Another localized, non-global problem; not a terrorist organization.

Yahweh ben Yahweh (he wasnt a Black Muslim)

He was convicted for over a dozen murders. And another localized problem. Hardly meets the definition of a terrorist organization. Oh, and not a Christian even if he claimed to be.

Branch Davidians - Exemplary Christians

Same same Oh, and not a Christian even if he claimed to be. And how many people did Koresh butcher?

Slavery - justified by early 1700's Christians

I agree with you here. Slavery was an abomination and remains an historical embarrassment for this country.

Gary Bauer, of Family Research Council, "war against the homosexual agenda."

Another localized, non-global problem; not a terrorist organization. I'll look forward to your facts showing bombing-toting Christians butchering gays by the dozens.

Fred Phelps - another wonderful Christian

Just an annoying pain in the azz. How many has he killed?

Christianitys stance towards Witches, even in modern day

I’ll look forward to your next post showing how many witches have been killed by bombing-toting Christians.

 

[Starman3000m]

No problem either, but Muslims believe the Q'uran is the word of God (maybe not your God, maybe not the Hindu God, but the Muslim God), where as the Haddith is the word of Muhammad a prophet and messager, but a Man.
The Sunnah is the tale of Muhammad, as told by others.

I do hope you know the distinction.

Yo Nucklesack,

Rather than consult with and cite Wikipedia as your "dependable' source of information for anything, try consulting with true Islamic sources. These would be the most reliable and dependable in research.

Here is some info from a more reliable reference site that you may wish to consider:

"In Islam, the Arabic word sunnah has come to denote the way Prophet Muhammad (saas), the Messenger of Allah, lived his life. The Sunnah is the second source of Islamic jurisprudence, the first being the Qur'an. Both sources are indispensable; one cannot practice Islam without consulting both of them. The Arabic word hadith (pl. ahadith) is very similar to Sunnah, but not identical. A hadith is a narration about the life of the Prophet (saas) or what he approved - as opposed to his life itself, which is the Sunnah as already mentioned.

Source:
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/

 

[2ndAmendment]

The idea of appeasement has been overly degraded, link HERE.

The 1938 appeasement of Hitler showed Hitler as the agressor and not that appeasement was wrong.

I would even say that the '38 appeasement showed the world that no peace with Hitler was possible and that is why the allies demanded an unconditional surrender to the end.

The appeasement exposed Hitler just as a lack of appeasement now exposes Bush as a war-monger.

I think the many years of appeasement before the war was long enough. We went through more years of appeasement than they did prior to WWII.

Again, you demonstrate that you do not know what you are talking about.

 

[Starman3000m]

Hmm seems your source states the same thing I said. I use Wiki because its an easy find.
But i dont base my arguments on it. I also dont go to Anti-Islamic/Anti-Christian/Anti-Jewish/Anti-Religion sites to post my scripture.

Now you know that All of the Islamic scripture verses referenced in my posts come directly from Islamic sources including three translations of the Qur'an: Yusuf Ali; Shakir and Pickthall (hardly anti-Islamic)

The info posted is to make others aware of the subtle deception of Islam; that it is not a religion of peace and never has been. There are many Americans, as yourself, who remain in denial to the fact that our society is being threatened in a greater capacity by an ideology that is anti-American, anti-Jewish, anti-Christian and anti-Atheist. It is an obligation to Warn the ususpecting citizens in Free Societies of what is prevailing against them. But then again, many are already realizing that today -except for those who refuse to see it.

Had I lived in the era of when Japanese Imperialism or Hitler's Nazi Party was on the rise I would have been presenting similar warnings to unsuspecting, uninformed and complacent citizens whose future was being threatened.

Then again, there were people that did try to warn them in those days and people still did not listen. The rest is history.