A-Dubya-O-L

Frank

Chairman of the Board
I don't agree with any of your conclusions. More and more, many of these nations which tax the hell out of their citizens - the ones at the TOP are not really leading the world in anything, and many of their social programs are bleeding red ink, horribly. I was listening to NPR the other day, and England is rethinking its model for advanced education, because all of its major institutions are so very very deeply in debt.

(I also recently have done some research in crime statistics, and from much of the data, it's clear that one of the reasons the US looks so bad is, it actually tracks its data carefully. Some nations such as Egypt, have NO suicides while others have almost no homicides but have suicides at rates three or four times that of the US - a strong suggestion that unsolved cases are simply ruled a suicide).

Ultimately the biggest difference is we at least believe that this country is ours to make decisions on - that's MY money up on the Hill, and those men there work for ME. We don't want to live in a nation where most of our money is taken from us and the government takes care of us.
 

MGKrebs

endangered species
Again, I agree with the concept,

but I also want well paid teachers, cops, and firemen. I want the streetlights to work, I want the gas pumps to be checked for accuracy, and i want the food inspected.

Mostly though, I want kids who are growing up in disadvantaged homes to get the kind of intervention that would help prevent them from leading a destructive life. it costs money up front, but it saves money in the long run through less cost of crime, less prisons, less lawyers and cops, and less health care costs.
 

Frank

Chairman of the Board
Re: Again, I agree with the concept,

Originally posted by MGKrebs
Mostly though, I want kids who are growing up in disadvantaged homes to get the kind of intervention that would help prevent them from leading a destructive life. it costs money up front, but it saves money in the long run through less cost of crime, less prisons, less lawyers and cops, and less health care costs.

Lessening crime is a lot more than providing for the disadvantaged. A lot of it is also making dead cetain that those who profit from youths involved in crime are shut down.

The city of Boston had/has something I believe is called the Boston Strategy to Prevent Youth Violence. It has been MASSIVELY successful in curbing crime but it is a combination of several solutions that would normally come from both sides of the political aisle. One is to provide jobs, mentoring programs and the means to keep youths focussed away from crime. But it also has *teeth* - it makes sure that violent offenders get punished, that the path of guns to youths gets cut off. It's carrot AND stick. It is a *targeted* solution - do not take away everyone's guns - just the ones doing the crimes. Because of the lax means of enforcing the law, much of the crime is done by the same fraction and being supplied by a very small number of people.

I don't believe that just one half is all that is necessary and this program is evidence that you need a big dose of both.
 

Tonio

Asperger's Poster Child
Re: I hear ya' Bru.

Originally posted by MGKrebs

And Tonio: Just to set the record straight: If I understand what you are saying, you are admitting that it is YOU who dismiss aguments because of the source. In other words, it doesn't matter whether the point has merit or not, if it comes from a partisan, then you can't consider it valid. How is that not hypocritical? Do you think you have a monopoly on the objective truth?

Of course not, Maynard. I don't claim to be the know-all, see-all unbiased source. I try to look at issues objectively, and I don't always succeed.

My point is that conservatives will always rip to shreds any arguments from liberals, especially if the arguments have flaws. And the reverse is true. You know how when you were a kid, if you left your zipper down, other kids would point and laugh? Whenever a partisan criticizes a wrong on the other side that his or own side may also have committed, or ignores certain facts when making an argument, the partisan has left his political zipper down. No one wants to be laughed at, so why wouldn't partisans want to fix their zippers?
 
B

Bruzilla

Guest
MGK, thanks for once again showing how the Dems live in a static environment. The tax rates you posted, and the conclusions you draw, are bogus. There are dozens of factors besides tax rates that effect things like health care, education, and crime rates. For example, Singapore has one of the best education systems in the world and a very low crime rate. But the low crime rate is far more a result of a very liberal use of a death penalty and other harsh physical penalties than education. And it's easy to have national healthcare when you're leveraging most of your healthcare costs off of the United States.

And speaking as someone who's spent time in 17 of the 24 countries listed, I can tell you that you're comparing apples and oranges when you compare them to the United States. For example:

1. Most sewer systems in Japan are open-air gutters running along the streets and draining into rivers and lakes. Polution is abysmal.
2. Most security and police functions in Italy are carried out my private contractors called Vigilantes.
3. The Netherlands reduced drug criminals by legalizing drugs. Now their healthcare costs for treating addicts is eating up their budgets.
4. The United Kingdom's national healthcare system is the worst in the G-7.
5. Iceland's government provides little service, no national defense, and alcoholism is at epidemic proportions.
6. Turkey has a military where you are drafted and given nothing but room, board, and a cigarette ration for four years. You don't get paid until year five. Plus sanitation is as bad as in Japan.

Yes, some of these countries may exceed the US in one or two areas, but on the whole they are all way behind us in regards to what the government does and how the people live. Not that that's a bad thing though.

As for well paid cops, firemen, teachers, and military... forget it. You just can't afford to pay a lot for something you need a lot of. No matter how well designed a paperclip is, you're not going to pay $5 a piece for them. Anything that you need a lot of you're going to need to pay less for, or, you'll have to generate a lot of revenue to afford it. How much money does it take to have a well paid teacher? $50,000? $75,000? $100,000? Teachers in SMC start at about $32k (and that's just salary... benefits and taxes add about 50% to that cost), and a livable wage in this area is about $60k, so if they are to be well paid, let's take them up to that minimal level. So that's a bump of about 47%. Now, since you bumped the starting salary up to $60k, new teachers will be making far more than a lot of established teachers, so how do you think that will effect morale? Now, you've got to jack their salaries up as well or the teacher's unions will cause all sorts of mayhem (remember that the teacher union people make their money based on how much teachers are paid, so they're going to be real interested in this.) Next, how long do you think the PhD principals, who have been in the system for decades, are going to take the fact that teachers are making more than they are? Guess what? Time to bump their salaries too. And don't forget the janitors and secretaries, they'll want a cut as well.

So... where are we at? The salaries for St. Mary's County educators in 2003 were about $3 million for administration, $8.6 million for support folks, and $43 million for teachers. An increase of just ten percent would mean a need to find an additional $5.5 million dollars. To get teachers up to a well-paid status, and keep the other screamers happy, you're looking at finding about $25 million dollars.... and that's just for teachers. Cops start at about $27k, so they'll need even more of a bump than the teachers (but thankfully there are less of them.) But it really doesn't matter as you'll never find the money for just the teachers yet alone anyone else.

Are teachers, cops, firemen, and the military underpaid? Yes, without a doubt. Do they render valuable services? Yes, without a doubt. But the sad fact is that these folks, while valuable, generate expenditures and not revenues (traffic tickets aside), so they are not self-supporting positions like someone working in a revenue generating position like you find in the private sector. These people have to make due on what revenues are available from the tax base, and unless you want to drastically increase the tax revenues, their salaries are going to be well lower than those in the private sector. That's why I chose to hang up my uniform after ten years and become a defense contractor. I think it's great to want teachers, cops, and firemen being paid what they're worth, but they'll always be paid based on funds available and that'll never be enough.

I don't mean to "rip to shreds" an argument from a liberal, but most of the entitlement mess we're in right now was caused by Liberals trying to get votes and has developed an entire class of people who rely on the government to get by. No one wants to see underpaid teachers or children starving in the streets, but the fact is that these two conditions have been brought about by entitlement spending. If we didn't have so many people feeding at the government entitlement trough we would have more money to pay teachers, cops, and firemen. Maybe they wouldn't be "well paid" but they would be better off than they are now.
 

vraiblonde

Board Mommy
PREMO Member
Patron
Does anyone read Reason magazine? Peter Bagge had a great cartoon in the January issue that lampooned all these tax fanatics. It ended with this guy saying, "My utopian dream is of a society where there's no income at all, and only taxes. But I'm not a Communist."

:killingme
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
MG...

...in addition to the excellent points Bruz laid out, we have to look at your budget link and ask a question: Where does the other 8% of government funding come from?

That 8% is somehwere near one trillion dollars.

And what does that do to the motivations of a given politician?
 

Tonio

Asperger's Poster Child
Re: Re: Again, I agree with the concept,

Originally posted by Frank
Lessening crime is a lot more than providing for the disadvantaged. A lot of it is also making dead cetain that those who profit from youths involved in crime are shut down.

The city of Boston had/has something I believe is called the Boston Strategy to Prevent Youth Violence. It has been MASSIVELY successful in curbing crime but it is a combination of several solutions that would normally come from both sides of the political aisle. One is to provide jobs, mentoring programs and the means to keep youths focussed away from crime. But it also has *teeth* - it makes sure that violent offenders get punished, that the path of guns to youths gets cut off. It's carrot AND stick. It is a *targeted* solution - do not take away everyone's guns - just the ones doing the crimes. Because of the lax means of enforcing the law, much of the crime is done by the same fraction and being supplied by a very small number of people.

I don't believe that just one half is all that is necessary and this program is evidence that you need a big dose of both.

Great information, Frank. Whoever designed it deserves some :clap: :clap: :clap: We need both prevention and enforcement. Too many communities have either one or the other because of ideological squabbling and bureaucratic turf wars.
 
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