A Pearl of Wisdom from Mark Twain

[wharfrat2]

Next the statesmen will invent cheap lies, putting the blame upon the nation that is attacked, and every man will be glad of those conscience-soothing falsities, and will diligently study them, and refuse to examine any refutations of them; and thus he will by and by convince himself that the war is just, and will thank God for the better sleep he enjoys after this process of grotesque self-deception."

- Mark Twain

 

[FromTexas]

Next the statesmen will invent cheap lies, putting the blame upon the nation that is attacked, and every man will be glad of those conscience-soothing falsities, and will diligently study them, and refuse to examine any refutations of them; and thus he will by and by convince himself that the war is just, and will thank God for the better sleep he enjoys after this process of grotesque self-deception."

- Mark Twain

Very good quote. Those extremists who attacked us on 9/11 believed it was our fault and we deserved to be attacked in such way. Saddam continually deluded himself that it was his right as a soverign power to take Kuwait, commit genocide, and all actions against him after were people who used lies against him. How deluded they all were.

 

[SamSpade]

Ah yes - "The Mysterious Stranger"

You of course realize that the character speaking this is Satan, explaining how no war in history has ever been just - how it starts with a few pebbles to become an avalanche.


As in everything, context is relevant.

 

[wharfrat2]

Ah yes - "The Mysterious Stranger"

You of course realize that the character speaking this is Satan, explaining how no war in history has ever been just - how it starts with a few pebbles to become an avalanche.


As in everything, context is relevant.

Your point? It is difficult to argue that the current war in Iraq is just. It was built upon a premise of lies and distortions. Please don't misinterpret my comments, I support our troops 100% and I hope each and every one of them comes home alive and unharmed. I have been opposed to this war before permission was ever granted by Congress.

 

[SamSpade]

Your point?

My POINT? You're trying to pass off a remark made by a Mark Twain character as if it were Mark Twain making the comment himself. It isn't.

Somehow, I thought THAT point was obvious

It is difficult to argue that the current war in Iraq is just. It was built upon a premise of lies and distortions.

EVEN IF *THAT* was true - it wouldn't obviate the "justness" of a war.

I say "even", because if you actually read the Iraqi War Resolution that Congress passed, you'd know why we went to war.

Please don't misinterpret my comments, I support our troops 100% and I hope each and every one of them comes home alive and unharmed.

Really? Well, I support YOU, too; I just happen to be against the things you're risking life and limb over.


Here's a link you should consider:

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/dennisprager/dp20050712.shtml

Those on the left should be honest, and say the truth.
You can be patriotic, and still be against the war -
but you CAN'T "support the troops" and be against the war. War is what these men are trained for, and they risk life and limb for something they volunteered for.

(I thought it hysterical that men like John Kerry said it was the wrong war in the wrong place at the wrong time - and then wanted to get our *allies* to get in there and fight TOO.)

 

[Ken King]

I have been opposed to this war before permission was ever granted by Congress.

Why are you against taking the battle to those that were already killing or trying to kill us?

 

[wharfrat2]

Why are you against taking the battle to those that were already killing or trying to kill us?

There was/is no proof of any connection between Iraq and the attacks on 9/11. I have no problem with the operations in Afghanistan, however Iraq is another story. There have been no WMD's found, nor any proof they existed.
When that unraveled this administration turned the war into unseating Saddam. Now it is about spreading democracy to the middle east. How arrogant of us to assume that all the peoples of the world are just chomping at the bit to become just like America.

In the 1950's Eisenhower spoke of the domino theory. It has crossed my mind more than once that in the minds of the insurgents perhaps they are concerned about a domino theory. That is that if Iraq is to fall to the West then the rest of the Middle East will follow. I can't prove that statement, it's just a thought that has crossed my mind.

 

[wharfrat2]

Why are you against taking the battle to those that were already killing or trying to kill us?

Why haven't George Bush, and the neo-cons of Congress who pushed for this war in Iraq encourged, or even required their own children to enlist and serve?

 

[wharfrat2]

My POINT? You're trying to pass off a remark made by a Mark Twain character as if it were Mark Twain making the comment himself. It isn't.

Somehow, I thought THAT point was obvious

EVEN IF *THAT* was true - it wouldn't obviate the "justness" of a war.

I say "even", because if you actually read the Iraqi War Resolution that Congress passed, you'd know why we went to war.

Really? Well, I support YOU, too; I just happen to be against the things you're risking life and limb over.


Here's a link you should consider:

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/dennisprager/dp20050712.shtml

Those on the left should be honest, and say the truth.
You can be patriotic, and still be against the war -
but you CAN'T "support the troops" and be against the war. War is what these men are trained for, and they risk life and limb for something they volunteered for.

(I thought it hysterical that men like John Kerry said it was the wrong war in the wrong place at the wrong time - and then wanted to get our *allies* to get in there and fight TOO.)

They are still Mark Twain's words. Mark Twain was an ardent anti-imperialist and one of the most vocal critics of the Spanish-American War. Another one of our "splendid little wars."

 

[FromTexas]

They are still Mark Twain's words. Mark Twain was an ardent anti-imperialist and one of the most vocal critics of the Spanish-American War. Another one of our "splendid little wars."

You mean Samuel Clemens, right?

 

[wharfrat2]

You mean Samuel Clemens, right?

Right

 

[FromTexas]

Right

I just didn't want you confusing Mark Twain's character for having said something which really would have been like Mark Twain saying it which really would have been Samuel Clemens... if we were following that train of logic.

I can quote a character that says war is necessity. Therefore, it is a true and exemplifying quote by that logic, as well.

 

[FromTexas]

Here we go...

It is said that the future is always born in pain. The history of war is the history of pain. If we are wise, what is born of that pain matures into the promise of a better world, because we learn that we can no longer afford the mistakes of the past.

That is an alien on Babylon 5 who said that. Its a good thing we have these characters helping us out.

 

[wharfrat2]

I just didn't want you confusing Mark Twain's character for having said something which really would have been like Mark Twain saying it which really would have been Samuel Clemens... if we were following that train of logic.

I can quote a character that says war is necessity. Therefore, it is a true and exemplifying quote by that logic, as well.

I don't doubt that, however, Twain/Clemens as I said was a vocal anti-imperialist who spoke out repeatedly against America's imperialist ambitions including the Spanish-American War.

 

[FromTexas]

I don't doubt that, however, Twain/Clemens as I said was a vocal anti-imperialist who spoke out repeatedly against America's imperialist ambitions including the Spanish-American War.

Actually, Clemens changed his views multiple times during his life on many issues and confessed as much. He was constantly re-inventing himself. He was a brilliant thinker and philosopher, and as such he was never constant... he was always changing. If you study his lectures over the years, you will see his ideas fundamentally changed from time to time.

As for the specifics of anti-imperialism, that was the zeitgeist of the times. It was on one issue for one real reason. You can't attribute that moment in time to contexts far different from his own.

 

[wharfrat2]

Actually, Clemens changed his views multiple times during his life on many issues and confessed as much. He was constantly re-inventing himself. He was a brilliant thinker and philosopher, and as such he was never constant... he was always changing. If you study his lectures over the years, you will see his ideas fundamentally changed from time to time.

As for the specifics of anti-imperialism, that was the zeitgeist of the times. It was on one issue for one real reason. You can't attribute that moment in time to contexts far different from his own.

By 1898, as the United States entered the Spanish-American War, Twain’s anger was vented toward the American government. He strongly opposed the annexation of the Philippines and openly declared himself an anti-imperialist. Clemens served as vice president of the American Anti-Imperialist League and boldly published anti-government writings and speeches.

This statement can be found here http://users.desk003.com/carol/Journalism/gpMediaInstitute/clemensessay.html

 

[FromTexas]

Against annexing the Phillipines. You said it yourself. He considered it an imperialist move. He had reasons for such. The context of those times and that specific action have absolutely zero relevance to the context of today.

Number one... Who are we annexing?

 

[wharfrat2]

Actually, Clemens changed his views multiple times during his life on many issues and confessed as much. He was constantly re-inventing himself. He was a brilliant thinker and philosopher, and as such he was never constant... he was always changing. If you study his lectures over the years, you will see his ideas fundamentally changed from time to time.

As for the specifics of anti-imperialism, that was the zeitgeist of the times. It was on one issue for one real reason. You can't attribute that moment in time to contexts far different from his own.

By 1898, as the United States entered the Spanish-American War, Twain’s anger was vented toward the American government. He strongly opposed the annexation of the Philippines and openly declared himself an anti-imperialist. Clemens served as vice president of the American Anti-Imperialist League and boldly published anti-government writings and speeches.

This statement can be found here http://users.desk003.com/carol/Journalism/gpMediaInstitute/clemensessay.html


Writings by Mark Twain
"I thought we should act as their protector -- not try to get them under our heel.... But now -- why, we have got into a mess, a quagmire from which each fresh step renders the difficulty of extrication immensely greater."


Contemporary Criticism
"To be a patriot, one had to say, and keep on saying, 'Our Country, right or wrong,' and urge on the little war. Have you not perceived that that phrase is an insult to the nation?"

"The true citizenship is to protect the flag from dishonor -- to make it the emblem of a nation that is known to all nations as true and honest and honorable. And we should forever forget that old phrase -- 'My country, right or wrong, my country!"

"The nation is divided, half patriots and half traitors, and no man can tell which from which."

 

[FromTexas]

You are copying yourself twice about something I have not argued against.

 

[FromTexas]

Are you going to keep throwing out quotes from Samuel Clemens that have no contextual relationship or even basis in the spirit of the times?

or even any relationship to my argument?