A Question For My Evolutionist Friends

Tonio

Asperger's Poster Child
The submission would be because one agrees, or at least understands what's being taught.

Neither. Although deism still goes against the scientific principle, it does so in a much smaller and much less harmful way.

God, in my view, teaches morals, and acts as final judge. However, there is such an enormous amount of grey area in moral questions, morals cannot be followed simply on a submissive basis. One must use their own thoughts and beliefs. God provides the outline to form those beliefs.

What outline? If you're referring to scripture, there's no basis for the claim that the text had a divine source. That's the problem with supernaturalistic religion - there is no evidence other than someone else's word, and they could be lying or they could be honestly mistaken. So instead of any gods doing the teaching and judging, we essentially have people who claim to be proxies for deities doing the teaching and judging.

I appreciate your mention of the gray area in answering moral questions. However, your "final judge" concept still translates to an individual's moral judgment as being irrelevant. I'm talking not necessarily about submission, but about what Abraham Maslow called the hierarchy of needs. The way that theistic religions define their gods, pleasing those gods constitutes a safety need that must be met at the expense of growth needs that deal with morality. But the believer can never know if his gods are pleased by his actions. All the believer has is the word of others who claim to be proxies for his gods. That focus and uncertainty interferes with one's ability to monitor the effects of one's actions on others and make moral decisions accordingly.
 

Tonio

Asperger's Poster Child
There is a difference between obeying the laws of a god because you believe and want to, and being forced by a Human church leader to do so.

I agree in part. I'm saying that theistic religions with free will occupy a middle ground, where the concern about possibly displeasing gods can interfere with one's moral judgment. Morality is about the effects of one's actions on others. It is not about following rules, because that implies that one is not responsible for making moral decisions.
 

wxtornado

The Other White Meat
After doing quite a bit of research both last night and the morning, of course via the great online knowledge base that we all have access to. I have found that none of the methods used to date specimens from the earth have been proven to be accurate. As is the case with dating lava rock from a volcano that we know erupted only a couple hundred years ago but Carbon dating and such put the rock's age at millions of years. Again the Earth and Man according to the oldest history book we know The Bible, has only been around for about 6000 years To be quite honest the different languages, ethnic origins, etc., etc. came from the time of the Tower of Babyl, when in the Bible it states that all people spoke the same tongue (language) and were building a tower to reach Heaven, God was not happy with this and changed everyone's language so none of them could understand each other, then the people that spoke the same languages went with their own and scattered the earth. I am sure you have heard that story.

You couldn't be any more wrong. The age of the earth and the solar system, 4.55 billion years, isn't even an issue anymore in science. Many different dating methods from various disciplines of science converge on the same conclusion.
 

Tonio

Asperger's Poster Child
You're putting things in opposite order. God provided the answer, not became the answer.

What basis is there for that assertion?

We actually started this diversion with the worry that proving theistic claims would mean we have to follow a particular religion. I'm just saying we don't have to, just because we prove there is a God.

While I agree, I'm making a different point, which is that any theistic religion's claim of exclusive truth and exclusive moral authority is built on a house of cards of assumptions. To prove the existence of a single god, we would have to disprove the existence of many gods. To substantiate the rest of the claim, we would have to prove that the god controls natural events, that the god has any interest in human affairs, and on and on.

But, isn't that basically what scientific testing does - take an unsubstantiated guess, and figure out a way to prove it, and perform tests that either tend to substantiate or disprove a postulation?

No, the "guess" originates with observation and current knowledge. It's not just the product of imagination.

And, that's why science has no answer - there are no reasonable assumptions to start from, and make claims about. So, the concept of lifelessness becoming life is ignored, and evolution is discussed as if it answers the question. It doesn't.

The evolution hypothesis has never claimed to address where life itself originated. That's a separate field of study, abiogenesis.

One doesn't start with an assumption. One starts with observations and with current knowledge.

Of course science doesn't have a final answer to the origin of life. It doesn't pretend to have that answer, and it doesn't have to have one. Science doesn't automatically assume that life arose from nonlife, but it doesn't reject the possibility, either. Assuming that a supernatural entity created life leads to the question of what caused the entity to come into being.

Well, it kind of does. While the Sumarians had their Gilgamesh (sp?) with the same story 1,000 years earlier than Moses wrote it down, people know of Adam a lot more than Gilgamesh. And, the claims made many, many years ago are seeming to pan out as accurate (that's quite a feat for that long ago, don't you think?). So, it's a little special.

Not necessarily. Scholars theorize that Judaism was influenced by the Sumerians' religion and later religions in that region, where the ancestors of the Jews lived in captivity for a time. Similarly, the supernatural aspects of the stories about Jesus may have been influenced by the stories about Mithras. The larger issue is that religious symbols are really metaphors for ideas that are often labeled as philosophical. Attempting to read the symbols as literal historical facts not only creates the problem of proof, but also takes the focus away from the metaphorical meaning.
 

Bustem' Down

Give Peas a Chance
Do me a favor and open this link, then read the entire thing. Let me know what you think.

JesusCreated.org

I want you to read it because you just stated that the Bible is written history, and you are right it is. It is also chronologically correct.

That's all fine and good, but that is still speculation because there is still no dating system in the Bible.
 

MMDad

Lem Putt
That's all fine and good, but that is still speculation because there is still no dating system in the Bible.

Doesn't the Bible say something about God's time not being the same as man's time? Isn't it interesting how the "young earthers" put time restraints on what God can do if they feel it supports their theory, but when asked about ID they say God is all powerful?

What if God's one day that He said "let there be light" was really one day to Him, but a billion years to us?
 

Bustem' Down

Give Peas a Chance
Doesn't the Bible say something about God's time not being the same as man's time? Isn't it interesting how the "young earthers" put time restraints on what God can do if they feel it supports their theory, but when asked about ID they say God is all powerful?

What if God's one day that He said "let there be light" was really one day to Him, but a billion years to us?

That's what I'm trying to say. If someone wants to believe that the Earth is only 6000 years old, that's fine, I'm not going to really try and change thier mind. I'm just wondering where it comes from because there isn't a timeline in the Bible and for all intents and purposes, everything before the Exodus is second hand account by Moses. I personally am not going to go by, and neither is any anthropologist or historian, the ages of people in the Bible as a guide because I do not believe it is biologically possible for someone to live 300, 400, 500 years old. I'm also not going to argue that point because I don't believe it happened, some people might and it's one of the topics that no one will budge on.
 

This_person

Well-Known Member
What outline? If you're referring to scripture, there's no basis for the claim that the text had a divine source.
That's where faith comes in, for sure.
That's the problem with supernaturalistic religion - there is no evidence other than someone else's word, and they could be lying or they could be honestly mistaken. So instead of any gods doing the teaching and judging, we essentially have people who claim to be proxies for deities doing the teaching and judging.
And, the written word from people who spoke directly with God, wrote down specifically what was said by Jesus, or witnessed the occurances themselves. So, we learn from a multitude of sources with virtually exact stories, to ensure the meaning gets across.
I appreciate your mention of the gray area in answering moral questions. However, your "final judge" concept still translates to an individual's moral judgment as being irrelevant. I'm talking not necessarily about submission, but about what Abraham Maslow called the hierarchy of needs. The way that theistic religions define their gods, pleasing those gods constitutes a safety need that must be met at the expense of growth needs that deal with morality. But the believer can never know if his gods are pleased by his actions. All the believer has is the word of others who claim to be proxies for his gods. That focus and uncertainty interferes with one's ability to monitor the effects of one's actions on others and make moral decisions accordingly.
How does it adversely effect analyzing what's actually happening?

True, the believer doesn't know for sure. He/she has to evaluate things on their own, with what they've been taught and what they understand, and make their decisions from there.
 

This_person

Well-Known Member
What basis is there for that assertion?
It only makes sense. For God to have created things, He was here before the questions were conceived, let alone answered. So, He provided the answers when asked.
While I agree, I'm making a different point, which is that any theistic religion's claim of exclusive truth and exclusive moral authority is built on a house of cards of assumptions. To prove the existence of a single god, we would have to disprove the existence of many gods. To substantiate the rest of the claim, we would have to prove that the god controls natural events, that the god has any interest in human affairs, and on and on.
The truth and moral authority are claims any and all can make. It's entirely up to each individual what they determine the truth to be, what they conclude their moral authority will be. Religion may claim it, but it doesn't make it true for each individual. Many a person has chosen death over denying their beliefs.
No, the "guess" originates with observation and current knowledge. It's not just the product of imagination.
Observation, like talking with a burning bush? :lol:

Most of science actually does come from imagination which is then tested. The Big Bang theory we were discussing was actually denied by the person who more or less proved it, because he (Einstien) refused to accept (regardless of fact put before him) that the universe was not a constant - had not always existed. It took a scientist (who happened to also be a priest) to put forth what Einstein demonstrated - the Big Bang. When the Pope of the time said this was a form of proof of the Bible, the scientist (who also happened to be a priest) asked the Pope to stop saying that, or his scientific answer to a scientific question would not be viewed by the science community as a valid argument. To understand it took this scientist's imagination to comprehend what was being shown in Einstein's equations, and extrapolate an imaginative answer. Then, Hubble tested it.
One doesn't start with an assumption. One starts with observations and with current knowledge.

Of course science doesn't have a final answer to the origin of life. It doesn't pretend to have that answer, and it doesn't have to have one. Science doesn't automatically assume that life arose from nonlife, but it doesn't reject the possibility, either. Assuming that a supernatural entity created life leads to the question of what caused the entity to come into being.
I agree, it doesn't answer ALL questions any more than theistic thoughts do. But, theistic thoughts are more inclusive in possibilities into the why's, not just the how's.
Not necessarily. Scholars theorize that Judaism was influenced by the Sumerians' religion and later religions in that region, where the ancestors of the Jews lived in captivity for a time. Similarly, the supernatural aspects of the stories about Jesus may have been influenced by the stories about Mithras. The larger issue is that religious symbols are really metaphors for ideas that are often labeled as philosophical. Attempting to read the symbols as literal historical facts not only creates the problem of proof, but also takes the focus away from the metaphorical meaning.
I'm not sure how it takes away from the meaning to believe they're literally true, but I do understand that the stories are told on more than one level. That actually adds credence to the stories to me - there WAS a garden of Eden, there WAS a flood, etc.
 

PsyOps

Pixelated
Raising an old discussion...

We had discussed one's trust (or faith) in the reliability of science; Stephen Hawking’s mistake on black holes, the Pluto mistake, and now our greatest minds get it wrong on an asteroid aimed at earth.

Do we really trust what science is telling us?
 

wxtornado

The Other White Meat
Do we really trust what science is telling us?

Absolutely. Science questions itself, and its axioms. Science is an evolving system. Science is not static or dogmatic. Science errs, and errs and errs, and every time it errs, it leaves little stones of solid fact behind, and these little stones conglomerate to form larger stones, and these larger stones become the cornerstones of future scientific advances.

You can believe God fits in wherever you want on this subject. Just don't put yourself in denial and ignore good science because your beliefs disagree with the facts.
 

PsyOps

Pixelated
Absolutely. Science questions itself, and its axioms. Science is an evolving system. Science is not static or dogmatic. Science errs, and errs and errs, and every time it errs, it leaves little stones of solid fact behind, and these little stones conglomerate to form larger stones, and these larger stones become the cornerstones of future scientific advances.

You can believe God fits in wherever you want on this subject. Just don't put yourself in denial and ignore good science because your beliefs disagree with the facts.

Okay wx... a little catch up for you. The question is in the context of explaining our existence. Where so many are abusing science as a means to dismiss the existence of a God can we really trust that science can ever be accurate enough to explain such a complex thing as our existence? I mean given the relative simplicity of predicting things like planets in our solar system, and asteroids hitting the earth what do we gain from science in their attempt to define our universe and its origins.

This is not to say it shouldn’t be studied. That’s not my point. My point is, can a belief in a scientific explanation be any more or less valid than a belief in God?
 

wxtornado

The Other White Meat
Okay wx... a little catch up for you. The question is in the context of explaining our existence. Where so many are abusing science as a means to dismiss the existence of a God can we really trust that science can ever be accurate enough to explain such a complex thing as our existence? I mean given the relative simplicity of predicting things like planets in our solar system, and asteroids hitting the earth what do we gain from science in their attempt to define our universe and its origins.

This is not to say it shouldn’t be studied. That’s not my point. My point is, can a belief in a scientific explanation be any more or less valid than a belief in God?

When you say "explaining our existence", I'm not sure if you talking about abiogenesis or evolution. If you're talking about abiogenesis, then we simply don't know, and don't claim to. If you're talking about evolution, then I accept the inescapable conclusions drawn from the physical evidence that life has descended through millions of years from a common ancestor. I accept evolution because that's what the evidence unambiguously tells me, and for no other reason.
 

Bustem' Down

Give Peas a Chance
We had discussed one's trust (or faith) in the reliability of science; Stephen Hawking’s mistake on black holes, the Pluto mistake, and now our greatest minds get it wrong on an asteroid aimed at earth.

Do we really trust what science is telling us?

Sure I can. Mistakes get made sure, but that is part of discovery. It was a mistake when they believed that supermassive stars could never become black holes, but further study revealed that they could.
 

foodcritic

New Member
Let cut to the point.

When you say "explaining our existence", I'm not sure if you talking about abiogenesis or evolution. If you're talking about abiogenesis, then we simply don't know, and don't claim to. If you're talking about evolution, then I accept the inescapable conclusions drawn from the physical evidence that life has descended through millions of years from a common ancestor. I accept evolution because that's what the evidence unambiguously tells me, and for no other reason.

Lets skip all the observations that we say we make about common ancestors etc.... When did life begin and how? I am curious to see how this is answered becasue Dawkins himself can't answer it. In fact he is only left with accepting that maybe alien life seeded the planet (panspermia).

The highly intelligent space aliens seed the earth in hopes that billions of years later something might evolve that is the human being.....

Time, Temperature and water and wala we have life.....

I will stick to "In the begining GOD...
 

LateApex

New Member
That's where faith comes in, for sure.And, the written word from people who spoke directly with God, wrote down specifically what was said by Jesus, or witnessed the occurances themselves.

I don't have as much of a problem with faith since humans drafted everything regarding the topic. Religion gets mixed up in a nasty quagmire of "who wrote what" in terms of "The Word of God" and various human changes to that word. I have by beefs with religion since it is such a powerful thing, it is quite susceptible to manipulation by crooked people for their own gain. I am all for believing whatever one likes, but it seems that a sense of individuality is necessary to help prevent jerks from hijacking the whole thing.
 

Toxick

Splat
Do we really trust what science is telling us?


Man, I hate to be on this side - but yes. I implicitly trust what science tells us. Science is the acquired knowledge of mankind. Do we get it wrong from time to time? Yeah - but that's how science evolves and grows - it learns from its mistakes, and most of it is tried and true.

Science also doesn't chip anything into stone until it is proven as fact. There are a million theories, but they are labelled as such. I see no reason to deny Science in favor of God, nor God in favor of Science. God and science can peacefully coexist. (I believe God INVENTED Science.)



"Come now and let us reason together, sayeth the Lord".
 

LateApex

New Member
Man, I hate to be on this side - but yes. I implicitly trust what science tells us. Science is the acquired knowledge of mankind. Do we get it wrong from time to time? Yeah - but that's how science evolves and grows - it learns from its mistakes, and most of it is tried and true.

Science also doesn't chip anything into stone until it is proven as fact. There are a million theories, but they are labelled as such. I see no reason to deny Science in favor of God, nor God in favor of Science. God and science can peacefully coexist. (I believe God INVENTED Science.)



"Come now and let us reason together, sayeth the Lord".

-Believing everything was simply spoken into existence (fully developed) by a supernatural being
-Believing that everything is today as it evolved from a puddle of mud (acids, soups, whatever your favorite term is) with no supernatural powers

In my mind, both of those statements take the same amount of "faith" (belief/trust/etc). No one would have been there to observe (an absolute must in the scientific process) except for the supernatural being (which is claimed in the Bible).
 

Toxick

Splat
-Believing everything was simply spoken into existence (fully developed) by a supernatural being
-Believing that everything is today as it evolved from a puddle of mud (acids, soups, whatever your favorite term is) with no supernatural powers

In my mind, both of those statements take the same amount of "faith" (belief/trust/etc). No one would have been there to observe (an absolute must in the scientific process) except for the supernatural being (which is claimed in the Bible).



Actually there are probably billions of observers.


The trouble is, they haven't been born yet. These observers are from the future, and they will all go see the birth of the universe when time travel is perfected.
 
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