A Question For My Evolutionist Friends

[This_person]

There's also the problem of the aborigine in New Guinea born in the year 256 CE whose never heard of Jesus.

It is my (and, I think, the vast majority of Christian's) belief that these people are looked after, like a baby. God protects the inoccents. It's the ones old and mature enough to make informed choices, and choose not to believe, that have the consequence of no reward.

 

[wxtornado]

It is my (and, I think, the vast majority of Christian's) belief that these people are looked after, like a baby. God protects the inoccents. It's the ones old and mature enough to make informed choices, and choose not to believe, that have the consequence of no reward.

There is at least one Christian here that will disagree with you on this - can't remember who tho......

 

[This_person]

...

You made my point well. ItalionScallion is explaining how he believes the relion teaches. Note, HE's not condemning someone to hell, he's explaining what he believes the religion teaches per Jesus's words.

No threat, just an explaination of what the religion teaches. If a non-believer does not believe in God, Jesus, heaven, hell, their immortal soul, etc., etc., how is this a threat? It's like me telling you someone's going to scratch your Bentley (I'm guessing yours is parked next to mine ) - if you are so sure you don't have the Bentley to be scratched, it's not really a threat.

 

[This_person]

There is at least one Christian here that will disagree with you on this - can't remember who tho......

I realize there are some, and I feel bad for them. But, everyone is entitled to their belief.

 

[Xaquin44]

I realize there are some, and I feel bad for them. But, everyone is entitled to their belief.

not according to god.

 

[This_person]

not according to god.

Sure He says it's okay to believe what you want. You choose the consequences, that's all. Free will.

 

[Toxick]

There's also the problem of the aborigine in New Guinea born in the year 256 CE whose never heard of Jesus.

I thought that this argument had been previously answered to your satisfaction.

 

[Xaquin44]

Sure He says it's okay to believe what you want. You choose the consequences, that's all. Free will.

so .... it apparently is not ok to god as you don't choose the consequences.

 

[This_person]

so .... it apparently is not ok to god as you don't choose the consequences.

That makes no sense.

If I don't choose to go to jail, but I choose to kill someone, haven't I really chosen to go to jail?

 

[Xaquin44]

That makes no sense.

If I don't choose to go to jail, but I choose to kill someone, haven't I really chosen to go to jail?

you didn't choose the consequence though. Society laid down the law and chose the consequence.

you chose the act, not the consequence.

 

[This_person]

you didn't choose the consequence though. Society laid down the law and chose the consequence.

you chose the act, not the consequence.

If you know the consequences, when you choose the act, you choose the consequences (we call that "personal responsibility").

 

[PsyOps]

It is my (and, I think, the vast majority of Christian's) belief that these people are looked after, like a baby. God protects the inoccents. It's the ones old and mature enough to make informed choices, and choose not to believe, that have the consequence of no reward.

I’m afraid I will have to disagree. First of all the Bible tells us all are sinners regardless of what we do; we are born into it.

…as it is written: There is none righteous, not even one… Romans 3:10

For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God… 3:23

The Bible doesn’t really address those that die before they have heard the Gospel. It does talk about the end times will not come until the Word has been heard in every corner of the earth. So the question is “what does God do with those that die before they hear the Word?”; my question is… what difference does it make? That’s for God to decide not us. I'm sure He has a purpose for them in terms of salvation and damnation. It’s just like those that condemn someone to eternal damnation because they committed a heinous crime. Only God can condemn someone. The fact of the matter is, everyone in this discussion has heard the Word and now has a choice. The burden is on you. Folks are concerned with asking questions as a means to cast doubt on the validity of the salvation of Christ. Admittedly, there are some things we Christians don’t have the answers for.

 

[PsyOps]

you didn't choose the consequence though. Society laid down the law and chose the consequence.

you chose the act, not the consequence.

Are you telling if you got to the top of a 20 story building and jump off you didn't accept the consequences of that act; the knowledge that it would kill you? Some things have natural laws and consequences to them regardless of human application of law. When you chose to do something with full knowledge of the what the resulting consequences would be you also chose those conseuquences. Otherwise you are just in denial that there even consequences for your actions. Any rational human understands this.

 

[Xaquin44]

Are you telling if you got to the top of a 20 story building and jump off you didn't accept the consequences of that act; the knowledge that it would kill you? Some things have natural laws and consequences to them regardless of human application of law. When you chose to do something with full knowledge of the what the resulting consequences would be you also chose those conseuquences. Otherwise you are just in denial that there even consequences for your actions. Any rational human understands this.

sure, but in this case, "god" chose the consequence and gave us the will to think on our own .... then abandoned us. A flimsy book held together by preachers who talk a good sermon but hump little boys on the side are hardly a system I'd believe in.

Face it, any god worth praying to wouldn't put anyone in the position we're in.

Why should I believe any of it?

Lets look at it objectively.

1: No evidence of god (face it, being mentioned in a book that has been tarnished so many times by so many people doing so many deeds is almost less than worthless).

2: A church that [a: can't even agree on a translation [b: has so many factions all claiming to be the 'one true' church [c: has in the past and to a lesser extent currently committed atrocities on a global scale (all while preaching the "good book" holds no meaning for me.

3: Hell itself is a bit of a steep punishment for simply "not believing". Lets see here .... you didn't believe in me for several years .... I guess the best solution is eternity in hell. Yeah .... nice god you have there .... infinite mercy my hairy ass.

4: What if you pick the wrong one? Lets face it. Mormons/Episcopalians/Catholics/Luthrens/dozens of others all claim the way to heaven is through their church (well, they say it's through god, but to better know him and worship him the way he wants it done, you have to do it their way).

I could go on, but why bother?

None of you will look at it and see it my way.

I'd wager you'd say the same about me. you would be wrong. I'm baptized, confirmed, and was an acolyte for 7 years. Heck, I was the narrator for several of the church plays and served so much ham and so many oysters you wouldn't believe it.

It's all bunk.

 

[This_person]

I’m afraid I will have to disagree. First of all the Bible tells us all are sinners regardless of what we do; we are born into it.





The Bible doesn’t really address those that die before they have heard the Gospel. It does talk about the end times will not come until the Word has been heard in every corner of the earth. So the question is “what does God do with those that die before they hear the Word?”; my question is… what difference does it make? That’s for God to decide not us. I'm sure He has a purpose for them in terms of salvation and damnation. It’s just like those that condemn someone to eternal damnation because they committed a heinous crime. Only God can condemn someone. The fact of the matter is, everyone in this discussion has heard the Word and now has a choice. The burden is on you. Folks are concerned with asking questions as a means to cast doubt on the validity of the salvation of Christ. Admittedly, there are some things we Christians don’t have the answers for.

While it is my opinion from what I perceive God to be that He looks out for the innocents, I don't see other than that where we disagree (and, I'm not sure you really disagree with that thought, just that you are saying it doesn't say that's what's going to happen). I 100% agree that the religious people are not doing the condemning - judgement is God's.

 

[This_person]

sure, but in this case, "god" chose the consequence and gave us the will to think on our own .... then abandoned us.

Abandoned us how? Based upon what?

A flimsy book held together by preachers who talk a good sermon but hump little boys on the side are hardly a system I'd believe in.

Is that really what you perceive the basic religion to be. Move away from the crack pipe, Xa! You used to be much smarter than this.

Face it, any god worth praying to wouldn't put anyone in the position we're in.

That's certainly an opinion you can have. You have that free will to make that opinion.

Why should I believe any of it?

If nothing anyone has said to you over all of these conversations has had an answer (or start of one) to that question for you, certainly restating it the nth time won't either.

Lets look at it objectively.

1: No evidence of god (face it, being mentioned in a book that has been tarnished so many times by so many people doing so many deeds is almost less than worthless).

2: A church that [a: can't even agree on a translation [b: has so many factions all claiming to be the 'one true' church [c: has in the past and to a lesser extent currently committed atrocities on a global scale (all while preaching the "good book" holds no meaning for me.

3: Hell itself is a bit of a steep punishment for simply "not believing". Lets see here .... you didn't believe in me for several years .... I guess the best solution is eternity in hell. Yeah .... nice god you have there .... infinite mercy my hairy ass.

4: What if you pick the wrong one? Lets face it. Mormons/Episcopalians/Catholics/Luthrens/dozens of others all claim the way to heaven is through their church (well, they say it's through god, but to better know him and worship him the way he wants it done, you have to do it their way).

I could go on, but why bother?

Still waiting for the "objectively" you talked about.

None of you will look at it and see it my way.

I'd wager you'd say the same about me. you would be wrong. I'm baptized, confirmed, and was an acolyte for 7 years. Heck, I was the narrator for several of the church plays and served so much ham and so many oysters you wouldn't believe it.

It's all bunk.

Ham and oysters and you still don't believe?

Xa, maybe you had a bad experience. Maybe you just have a lapse in belief. Being baptized, confirmed, and active in rituals and parties is not what belief is about. If you believe it to be, you've missed the whole point of God. You've misidentified the church as God. It's pretty common to do, I think.

Try and lose the stick that's been rectally inserted about the church, and read the book with that "objectivity" you are currently lacking. You may change your mind.

Of course, you may not, too. It's up to you.

 

[PsyOps]

While it is my opinion from what I perceive God to be that He looks out for the innocents, I don't see other than that where we disagree (and, I'm not sure you really disagree with that thought, just that you are saying it doesn't say that's what's going to happen). I 100% agree that the religious people are not doing the condemning - judgement is God's.

The verses I provided point that no one, in God's eyes, are innocent (i.e. without sin).

 

[PsyOps]

sure, but in this case, "god" chose the consequence and gave us the will to think on our own .... then abandoned us. A flimsy book held together by preachers who talk a good sermon but hump little boys on the side are hardly a system I'd believe in.

Your statement proves that we know, going in, there are consequences. I’m not quite sure how you conclude that because God gave us a free will that by doing so he abandoned us. I think of it more like your own child. You give them the tools to make decisions then send them out into the world. That’s not abandonment, that’s love. I’m not even going to waste time addressing your “hump little boys” crap except to say because an extreme few within the church commit atrocious acts doesn’t tarnish the entire church and every believer within it.

Face it, any god worth praying to wouldn't put anyone in the position we're in.

Why should I believe any of it?

God didn’t put us in this position, we did. Like you wrote, He gave us the will to think on our own. You seem to have this view of God as an interventionist and puppeteer. As I’ve written before God set things in motion with laws of nature and morals. He’s allowing things to take their natural course. Again, I liken to a parent… a parent that loves their child will provide the tools for their child to make decisions not force their every move and make sure nothing goes wrong.

Lets look at it objectively.

1: No evidence of god (face it, being mentioned in a book that has been tarnished so many times by so many people doing so many deeds is almost less than worthless).

I don’t think it has anything to do with a book. I know it’s something you don’t believe, but I think there is another part of our existence that extends beyond just the physical and what science is currently explaining in our physical universe. Have you ever listened to a song or read a book or heard someone speak that moved you so deeply that you can’t explain why? The spirit is what drives us to survive and stay alive and not just as wandering nomads with no purpose. We live each day believing we have a purpose in this world. What is it within us that makes us believe this? Your believe leaves you with just a stark existence; you’re here for a while then you die. For what reason? If it has no reason, then what gives you the will to go on living?

2: A church that [a: can't even agree on a translation [b: has so many factions all claiming to be the 'one true' church [c: has in the past and to a lesser extent currently committed atrocities on a global scale (all while preaching the "good book" holds no meaning for me.

The Christian Church has ideed become nearly like the Church of the day when Jesus was here. It has become materialistic, arrogant, ruly, self-serving, and strays from nearly every word Christ spoke. This doesn’t lessen God.

3: Hell itself is a bit of a steep punishment for simply "not believing". Lets see here .... you didn't believe in me for several years .... I guess the best solution is eternity in hell. Yeah .... nice god you have there .... infinite mercy my hairy ass.

Since you don’t believe what difference does it make? For you there is no heaven nor hell. For you there is life on earth then you die. Over, done, finish. I find that to be a pretty steep punishment for simply existing on this earth. God set the rule… believe in my Son and you obtain eternal life in paradise. Don’t believe and you obtain eternal life in damnation. It’s God’s rule and I don’t question it. Why would God have mercy on those that despise Him? Why would He provide a place in paradise for someone that claimed He didn't exist? Why would God welcome someone into His house that didn't want to be there?

4: What if you pick the wrong one? Lets face it. Mormons/Episcopalians/Catholics/Luthrens/dozens of others all claim the way to heaven is through their church (well, they say it's through god, but to better know him and worship him the way he wants it done, you have to do it their way).

Your alternative to not pick one at all. Where does that leave you? We will find out in the end wont we?

I could go on, but why bother?

None of you will look at it and see it my way.

I do see it your way. I do understand why it’s hard to believe. Too many discrepancies. Too much bad connected with it. Not enough physical evidence. Too many rules to follow that aren’t even followed within the church. I will say this about all that; when you put humans into the process things will get pretty screwed up. None of this changes who God is.

I'd wager you'd say the same about me. you would be wrong. I'm baptized, confirmed, and was an acolyte for 7 years. Heck, I was the narrator for several of the church plays and served so much ham and so many oysters you wouldn't believe it.

It's all bunk.

Then this begs the question: Why do you even bother? Are you trying to convince us believers we are wrong? Are you on a mission to prove us wrong?

 

[This_person]

The verses I provided point that no one, in God's eyes, are innocent (i.e. without sin).

I see. I meant innocent as in "did not know better, hadn't heard the Word", not "without sin".

 

[PsyOps]

I see. I meant innocent as in "did not know better, hadn't heard the Word", not "without sin".

Thanks for the clarification.